'Anyone for a jelly baby ? ' - Doctor Who discussion thread.

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  • edited September 2019 Posts: 12,837
    TV has changed a lot since those days though and I just think that the format seems a bit tired. 11 series is a lot, and there's only so many times that a new doctor/TARDIS/companion can revitalise things before even that just becomes too regular an occurence. Obviously there's going to be certain groups (kids, fans) that always watch it no matter what. I can't see it ever being cancelled because of low ratings. But if they really want to recapture the Tennant era high of it seeming like everyone in the country watches it then I think a rest would be the way to go. Jodie's debut got massive ratings but once the novelty of having a woman wore off it dropped back down again. And even though it was a pretty crap series I don't think the quality is the reason for that drop because it has on the whole been pretty well recieved. Plus, the late Capaldi era was probably the most solid the show has been in terms of quality imo and got very good critic reviews but got the lowest ratings of the show. I think ratings are lower simply because it's been going on for so long. The interest, apart from kids and proper fans, isn't there like it used to be. Resting it for a few years would make it seem like a new and exciting thing again when it's inevitably bought back.

    But if the show keeps running out of energy to the point where it needs to go away, wouldn't that point to a larger problem? Think of a car. You are low on petrol, so you pull into a petrol station and fill up. You look on the dashboard, and the gauge shows full. You pay and drive off. A few minutes down the road, and the tank is now down to a quarter, already. That's not good.

    If it does go away, at least there is Big Finish. I have my regular fix of McCoy, so i'm sorted anyway.

    I don't think so, no. Even if you're maintaining it well and keeping it in good nick, a car only lasts so long if you're putting miles on the clock. Any show made now is bound to struggle to maintain the same level of interest if it's on (more or less) year in year out for over a decade imo. The original run lasted as long as it did because that was a different age of entertainment, where the only competition was whatever was on ITV at the same time. With streaming and the internet and catch up and the multitude of different shows that are made now, I don't think you can expect any show besides a soap opera to run as continuously as the old show did, because it's impossible to keep the public interested for that long when there's so much content now. Plus while Doctor Who has the advantage of being able to reinvent itself, there's still a basic format there. Doctor and companion flying around in the TARDIS and running into aliens. It's a more versatile format than most because they can go anywhere and the doctor can be anyone but any format is bound to feel tired after 11 series.

    I'm not advocating another 20 year long gap or anything but a few years I think would do the show good. If they'd put it on hiatus when Capaldi left then bought it back for the anniversary in 2023 then I think the hype for it would have been massive.
  • Posts: 5,993
    How it really happened :



    I must say, if they put a new DVD of the 50th special, this should at least be on the bonuses.
  • conradhankersconradhankers Underground
    Posts: 229
    Stop with SJW cause and bring back sci-fi stories. Star Trek has also suffered from the same political agenda/narrative. I want my Doctor back.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Now that is how you make a 50+ year celebration.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I gave up watching Dr Who after just 1 episode of series 11,and I have never done that before.

    While Jodie is the Dr then i'm not bothered tbh,its all PC and morals now,i don't want that on a Saturday evening.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I am looking forward to the next Doctor Who series which is sadly quite some time away.
  • edited September 2019 Posts: 12,837
    I think the too PC complaints are a bit silly to be fair. It's a kids show about a pacifist who always tries to be kind and fair and do the right thing and values every life the same. It should be as liberal and inclusive as possible.

    Besides, from what I can tell, most of the "too PC" complaints came because of the historical episodes. Which I thought were the only decent ones. I thought it was nice that they were showing things like the civil rights movement and the partition of India on a primetime BBC One family show. Teaches the kids about these important moments in history.

    So yeah, don't get the too PC complaints personally. My complaints were more to do how badly written it all was and how one note Jodie was.
    SaintMark wrote: »
    I am looking forward to the next Doctor Who series which is sadly quite some time away.

    I wish I could say the same. I'll give episode one a chance, but if that doesn't grab me then I probably won't bother again until Jodie's last episode (the regeneration ones always interest me). I'm getting the feeling that the current era might just not be for me.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I think the too PC complaints are a bit silly to be fair. It's a kids show about a pacifist who always tries to be kind and fair and do the right thing and values every life the same. It should be as liberal and inclusive as possible.

    Besides, from what I can tell, most of the "too PC" complaints came because of the historical episodes. Which I thought were the only decent ones. I thought it was nice that they were showing things like the civil rights movement and the partition of India on a primetime BBC One family show. Teaches the kids about these important moments in history.

    So yeah, don't get the too PC complaints personally. My complaints were more to do how badly written it all was and how one note Jodie was.
    SaintMark wrote: »
    I am looking forward to the next Doctor Who series which is sadly quite some time away.

    I wish I could say the same. I'll give episode one a chance, but if that doesn't grab me then I probably won't bother again until Jodie's last episode (the regeneration ones always interest me). I'm getting the feeling that the current era might just not be for me.

    Fair enough I found last series well scripted and loved the historical which were missing too long from the series imho. While Jody does not exactly rock my boat her first series was seriously different from the series before her and certainly had som excellent episodes. So I am interested what the new series brings.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited September 2019 Posts: 13,978
    The Doctor and his black companion travel back the a time in Earths history when racism was an acceptible attitude throughout society. The Doctor sees someone being racist, and punches them. So in a time when racism was acceptible, and he should have known what was and wasn't acceptible given his knowledge of Earth's history, the Doctor physically assaults somone for no good reason.
    Then there was that little matter of making the 1st Doctor into a sexist idiot, just to finger wag at the big nasty man, when the 1st Doctor was nothing remotely like what he was portrayed as in Twice Upon A Time. And even if, IF, he were sexist, I thought timelords had no concept of gender. :-? So which is it, Moff?
    It's not a case of the show being "too pc", but the writers spunking their politics over the show, letting them take precedence over writing of the characters. I hope the show doesn't go away, but if it meant purging the current politics out of the show, then so be it. Maybe the problem runs deeper, and won't be solved until there is big changes at the PaedBC.
  • Posts: 5,993
    Twice Upon a Time was just the First Doctor being his usual trolling self. Nothing sexist in it, he's an equal opportunity offender, and he knows exactly what he's doing.

    Now, good news : Missing episode Mission to the Unknown has been refilmed, and will be released on YouTube on october 9th 2019, at 5.50 PM GMT :

    https://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2019/10/02/recreation-of-missing-episode-mission-to-the-unknown-to-be-released-on-youtube/

  • Posts: 5,993
    I know it's been closed now for two years, but still :

    https://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2019/10/04/cardiffs-doctor-who-experience-is-being-dismantled/

    Seeing that empty building (and learning that Eddie's Diner had closed down) made my last trip to Cardiff a bittersweet experience. Now, we won't even have that to remind us of all the good times we spent saving the Doctor (and the universe) and seeing all those wonderful props (including Bessie).
  • The Doctor and his black companion travel back the a time in Earths history when racism was an acceptible attitude throughout society. The Doctor sees someone being racist, and punches them. So in a time when racism was acceptible, and he should have known what was and wasn't acceptible given his knowledge of Earth's history, the Doctor physically assaults somone for no good reason.
    Then there was that little matter of making the 1st Doctor into a sexist idiot, just to finger wag at the big nasty man, when the 1st Doctor was nothing remotely like what he was portrayed as in Twice Upon A Time. And even if, IF, he were sexist, I thought timelords had no concept of gender. :-? So which is it, Moff?
    It's not a case of the show being "too pc", but the writers spunking their politics over the show, letting them take precedence over writing of the characters. I hope the show doesn't go away, but if it meant purging the current politics out of the show, then so be it. Maybe the problem runs deeper, and won't be solved until there is big changes at the PaedBC.

    I think the first doctor was just being used as a metaphor for 60s doctor who/60s values in general to show how far things had come before the first female doctor. I found it funny but to be fair I'm not familiar with that era at all. I can see why fans of it would be rubbed the wrong way.

    I don't get your issue with him decking the racist though. Why should the doctor care if that was what was socially acceptable back then. He's a time travelling alien. The norms and values of the time don't apply to him. That sort of thing should never have been okay, we should be ashamed of how that was actually commonplace, and there'd be no reason for an outsider to cut us any slack, especially when his mate was the target. It's not like we were less intelligent creatures back then. "It was the olden days" isn't an excuse, especially not for a time lord.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited October 2019 Posts: 13,978
    I think the first doctor was just being used as a metaphor for 60s doctor who/60s values in general to show how far things had come before the first female doctor. I found it funny but to be fair I'm not familiar with that era at all. I can see why fans of it would be rubbed the wrong way.

    There it is. Imagine if they misrepresented Eccleston, isn't that why he didn't come back for TDOTD? Now i'm not suggesting the 10th Doctor would be shown as a racist, but if Eccleston had appeared in the 50th Anniversart special, and it wasn't in line with how he was portrayed on screen, you'd be less than thrilled. Heck, i'm not even a massic fan of the 1st Doctor. If they were goign to bring the characters back, the least they coudl have done was to respect Hartnell's portrayal. But if that is how they felt the 1st Doctor was, then I dread to think of how they would portrayed the 7th Doctor (travelling through time and space with a 16 year old girl). With would be ironic given it's a PeadBC show.
    I don't get your issue with him decking the racist though. Why should the doctor care if that was what was socially acceptable back then. He's a time travelling alien. The norms and values of the time don't apply to him. That sort of thing should never have been okay, we should be ashamed of how that was actually commonplace, and there'd be no reason for an outsider to cut us any slack, especially when his mate was the target. It's not like we were less intelligent creatures back then. "It was the olden days" isn't an excuse, especially not for a time lord.

    Right. The Doctor travells back to a period in the history of a planet that he knows intimately, and it shocked to find an attitude that was commonplace then. Even if he didn't check the scanners, upon exiting the TARDIS, he would have quickly beene able to ascertain the time period, and now what was, or was not, acceptable at the time. An attitude that wasn't a crime back then. The Doctor responds by phyically assaulting him. That is the problem. The Doctor assaulted him for doing nothing wrong. Saying "it was the olden days" is not an excuse. But saying "Oh, he's from a different time" also shouldn't be an excuse. It's no different with Bond and his treatment of women, especially in the 1960's. Yes, saying "that is how it was at the time" isn't an exuse, but guess what that is what it was like at the time. But they got the 1st Doctor so wrong.
  • edited October 2019 Posts: 12,837
    I think the first doctor was just being used as a metaphor for 60s doctor who/60s values in general to show how far things had come before the first female doctor. I found it funny but to be fair I'm not familiar with that era at all. I can see why fans of it would be rubbed the wrong way.

    There it is. Imagine if they misrepresented Eccleston, isn't that why he didn't come back for TDOTD? Now i'm not suggesting the 10th Doctor would be shown as a racist, but if Eccleston had appeared in the 50th Anniversart special, and it wasn't in line with how he was portrayed on screen, you'd be less than thrilled. Heck, i'm not even a massic fan of the 1st Doctor. If they were goign to bring the characters back, the least they coudl have done was to respect Hartnell's portrayal. But if that is how they felt the 1st Doctor was, then I dread to think of how they would portrayed the 7th Doctor (travelling through time and space with a 16 year old girl). With would be ironic given it's a PeadBC show.
    I don't get your issue with him decking the racist though. Why should the doctor care if that was what was socially acceptable back then. He's a time travelling alien. The norms and values of the time don't apply to him. That sort of thing should never have been okay, we should be ashamed of how that was actually commonplace, and there'd be no reason for an outsider to cut us any slack, especially when his mate was the target. It's not like we were less intelligent creatures back then. "It was the olden days" isn't an excuse, especially not for a time lord.

    Right. The Doctor travells back to a period in the history of a planet that he knows intimately, and it shocked to find an attitude that was commonplace then. Even if he didn't check the scanners, upon exiting the TARDIS, he would have quickly beene able to ascertain the time period, and now what was, or was not, acceptable at the time. An attitude that wasn't a crime back then. The Doctor responds by phyically assaulting him. That is the problem. The Doctor assaulted him for doing nothing wrong. Saying "it was the olden days" is not an excuse. But saying "Oh, he's from a different time" also shouldn't be an excuse. It's no different with Bond and his treatment of women, especially in the 1960's. Yes, saying "that is how it was at the time" isn't an exuse, but guess what that is what it was like at the time. But they got the 1st Doctor so wrong.

    He wasn't shocked by it. He had an understandably angry reaction to his friend being called all sorts of horrible stuff.

    The guy didn't "do nothing wrong". He was a racist prick. It being socially and legally acceptable at the time to be a racist prick doesn't mean it wasn't still morally wrong, as I'm sure the people on the recieving end and the white people who did realise it was wrong in that time period would tell you were they still alive. I don't get what you thought his attitude would be? When he lands on Dalek planets he doesn't let them off because that's just how Dalek attitudes were at the time does he? Why should his reaction to humans be any different?

    We should be ashamed of how disgusting attitudes used to be, "oh, almost everyone was like that back then" is not an excuse, and to a time travelling alien none of that matters anyway. Whereever he's landed that week is the present to him. What was he supposed to do? Not stick up for his friend because he knows things will be better but still not perfect in a couple of hundred years?

    I loved it for the record. One of the biggest laughs of the series for me. Gives that whole speech about diplomacy but then can't resist just jawing him, as I assumed we all wanted to during that scene.

    Not sure what you're trying to say with the Bond comparison either. Those films are genuinely a product of their time. Still isn't okay to slap women around but nothing that can be done about it now is there.

    Doctor Who on the other hand is a modern show about time travel. He's interacting with the past, and he should get angry when he sees aspects of it that are wrong. If he landed in a 60s Bond film and Sean Connery slapped his companion I'd be fine with him decking him too.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited October 2019 Posts: 13,978
    He wasn't shocked by it. He had an understandably angry reaction to his friend being called all sorts of horrible stuff.

    The guy didn't "do nothing wrong". He was a racist prick. It being socially and legally acceptable at the time to be a racist prick doesn't mean it wasn't still morally wrong, as I'm sure the people on the recieving end and the white people who did realise it was wrong in that time period would tell you were they still alive. I don't get what you thought his attitude would be?

    Because back then, it wasn't a crime. As bad as we think it is today, and thankfully we have come.... some ways. It still wasn't a crime then, and for the Doctor to overreact in such a way, brings him down to our level. The Doctor is supposed to be above us, should show us a different way. What should he have done? Make a speech, that is one of the few bacic traits across the Doctors many regenerations.
    When he lands on Dalek planets he doesn't let them off because that's just how Dalek attitudes were at the time does he? Why should his reaction to humans be any different?

    How can you possibly compare humans to Daleks? Unlike humans, Daleks haven't evolved through time, they are constat in their genodical hatred for anything that doesn't measure up. We, thankfully, have evolved through time, attituded changing. There is no comparison whatsoever.

    He did have a chance to wipe them out before they were fully created in Genesis Of The Daleks, but in that one famous scene, the Doctor pondered whether he had any right to do so. All he had to do, was touch two little wires together.
    We should be ashamed of how disgusting attitudes used to be, "oh, almost everyone was like that back then" is not an excuse, and to a time travelling alien none of that matters anyway. Whereever he's landed that week is the present to him. What was he supposed to do? Not stick up for his friend because he knows things will be better but still not perfect in a couple of hundred years?

    I agree with you, but again, saying that is how it was, is not an excuse, but a fact.
    I loved it for the record. One of the biggest laughs of the series for me. Gives that whole speech about diplomacy but then can't resist just jawing him, as I assumed we all wanted to during that scene.

    Well I hated it. I don't agree with Lord... Tothemanorborn or whatever his name was, but it was sooo out of character for the Doctor.
    Not sure what you're trying to say with the Bond comparison either. Those films are genuinely a product of their time. Still isn't okay to slap women around but nothing that can be done about it now is there.

    Ok, let me try and put it another way. Uh.... 60's Bond films have the attitudes prevalent at the time. Right? People, (generally non-Bond fans) complain about it. Now, I am not saying that I necessariy agree with the treatment of whoever. But those were the attitudes of the time, when the films were made. Now Lord... Suchandsuch was all the things you said, but he wasn't brought forward into our time, but the Doctor went to his time. The Doctor punching him, lowered the Doctor down to our level. the
    Doctor Who on the other hand is a modern show about time travel. He's interacting with the past, and he should get angry when he sees aspects of it that are wrong. If he landed in a 60s Bond film and Sean Connery slapped his companion I'd be fine with him decking him too.

    So.... Conor McGreggor in the TARDIS? :-? Not sure if that is what Sydney Newman would have wanted, but it would be different. In between laying out Cybermen, the Doctor can try and fix the cameleon circuit.
  • edited October 2019 Posts: 12,837
    I just don't get why should he take how widespread those attitudes were or how they've changed since into account at all to be honest. Maybe I'm misremembering but I'm sure there have been a couple of episodes about Daleks who have evolved to be good. Or replace them with any other alien then. Who's to say any of his enemies couldn't evolve into something good in the future if he travels ahead far enough, but what matters is what's in front of him, in the time period he's in. There's no such thing as the past or the present or the future to someone who literally lives outside time, that's the way I see it. The time period is irrelevant to him. What's wrong is wrong.

    And I guess what it comes down to is how willing to resort to violence we think the doctor should be, and how above us he should be. Personally while I get and like the fact that he's a pacifist, I'm a bit too cynical to think that approach always works. I prefer the doctors who are more willing to get their hands dirty if he has to and who aren't too sanctimonious and perfect about their pacifist side. Capaldi in particular had a couple of little scraps, plus he was fiercely loyal to his companions (watched series 9 recently and remember when he punched that timelord, stole his gun and shot him to bring Clara back? And that guy actually had done nothing wrong). So it didn't feel at all out of character for his darker/edgier doctor to me.

    I also don't think he should be too far above us. Sure he should try to show us a better way and find a non violent solution to everything but it'd be boring if he always did. At the end of the day I think he had a very understandable reaction. He might be an alien but he still has emotions. I don't think of myself as a violent person at all, but if someone was hurling abuse like that at a mate of mine I'd have no problem hitting them and I wouldn't feel guilty about it in the slightest. Some people deserve it imo. Not saying he should go around fighting everyone he meets, but I do think sometimes reacting with force is understandable/justifiable, and that situation was definitely one of those times.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited October 2019 Posts: 13,978
    I don't believe anyone is truely a pacifist. Everyone has a breaking point, that once met, they WILL lash out. The thing is, The Doctor isn't human, and should be above us, he should show us a different way. If the Doctor had made a rousing speech, like he did in The Zygon Inverson*:



    It would have been a different matter entirely. THAT is The Doctor. He could have belittled Lord Margoandgerry


    *Which is up there with the 7th Doctor pondering the Ripple Effect in Remembrance Of The Daleks, and the 1st Doctors farewell speech to Susan in The Dalek Invasion Of Earth.

    I get where you are comign from, I do, I just don't agree that was the best action for him to take.
  • Posts: 5,993
    I'll chalk it up to his human half acting up ;)
  • Posts: 5,993
    And here it is :



    I think it should be released, either as a DVD, or as an extra in a future set (either Classic" or "New"). BTW, if the Varga aren't a reference to Matango... Well, they should be.
  • Posts: 5,993
    A new "lost story" will get animated next year, after "The Faceless Ones". A clip will be presented at the next London Comic-Con, which takes place from october 25th to october 27th 2019.

    http://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/new-animation-to-be-announced-at-london-comic-con/

    And I know that won't please everyone here, but there will also be a special episode next year for the new series :

    https://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2019/10/12/director-revealed-for-doctor-who-series-12-christmas-special/
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    It's been known since June that The Faceless Ones will be arriving next year. Shame it's later in the year though.
  • Posts: 5,993
    I said "after The Faceless Ones. Which means it will be a new lost story. Evil of the Daleks, perhaps ?
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Apologies, I see now, I didn't read it properly. I really want to see Fury From The Deep, that or Wheel In Space.

    What Troughton era stories do we have remaining...?

    The Power Of The Daleks
    The Highlanders
    The Underwater Menace
    The Moonbase
    The Macra Terror
    The Faceless Ones
    The Evil Of The Daleks

    The Tomb Of The Cybermen
    The Abomnible Snowmen
    The Ice Warriors
    The Enemy Of The World
    The Web Of Fear
    Fury From The Deep
    The Wheel In Space


    The Dominators
    The Mind Robber
    The Invasion
    The Krotons
    The Seeds Of Death
    The Space Pirates
    The War Games

    Hhmm... we have had what 3 or 4 Troughtons in a row now, they could make animate another Hartnell story.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Fury From The Deep unvield as next animated classic story


    Coming 2020. Then were getting two releases next year. B-)
  • edited October 2019 Posts: 5,993
    Hhmm... we have had what 3 or 4 Troughtons in a row now, they could make animate another Hartnell story.

    There are a few problems with that. The first one is the lack or photographic references for most of the third season (the producer decided against having telesnaps in order to keep the budget to a minimum). Then, in the case of historical, an (undeserved) lack of interest, plus the cost of doing costumes and sets. And some stories ("The Daleks Masterplan") are just too big to be animated. A shame, really.

    Still, I'm glad to have another classic Troughton serial to look forward to. The only thing is that I'll have to make a little place on my Dcotor Who DVD shelves. But that's alright, I still have place.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,109
    I love the sound design of the old classics very atmospheric
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Exclusive clip from The Faceless Ones:

  • Posts: 5,993
    At 1.19, isn't that a pic of the Master we see on the board in the police station ?

    And now, the announcement we've all been waiting for :

    https://www.cbr.com/doctor-who-video-announcement/



    The trailer for the new season, or the announcement of a Christmas episode ? Anyway, we'll know on november 23rd.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited November 2019 Posts: 25,109
    Gerard wrote: »
    At 1.19, isn't that a pic of the Master we see on the board in the police station ?

    And now, the announcement we've all been waiting for :

    https://www.cbr.com/doctor-who-video-announcement/



    The trailer for the new season, or the announcement of a Christmas episode ? Anyway, we'll know on november 23rd.

    Well we did not get a Christmas episode last year so who knows they may ditch the New Year episode and bring it back to its rightful spot.

    I love DW though if we are getting more of the same as last season, I just can't get enthusiastic for it.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited November 2019 Posts: 13,978
    It is indeed, @Gerard. A nice little easter egg.
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