'Anyone for a jelly baby ? ' - Doctor Who discussion thread.

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  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited November 2023 Posts: 13,978
    I saw a bts clip of RTD explaining it and I think he is badly misguided on this. Davros isn't evil because he is in a chair, it's just a result of his accident. A lifelong fan like RTD should be able to see that.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,146
    .
    I saw a bts clip of RTD explaining it and I think he is badly misguided on this. Davros isn't evil because he is in a chair, it's just a result of his accident. A lifelong fan like RTD should be able to see that.

    Just watched the behind the scenes clip, why stop at Davros. They do realize that Davros is an alien in a science fiction series. The Cybermen have bionic parts/limbs so is that not an issue, the Daleks in principal are the same as Davros so do they need a complete redesign.
  • Posts: 5,994
    And Robert Ironside was in a wheelchair and was a good guy, so there.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,146
    The Blofeld pre title scene from FYEO does that need editing out?
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 5,994
    No. Apart, of course for the "Delicatessen in Stainless Steel" line :D
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    .
    I saw a bts clip of RTD explaining it and I think he is badly misguided on this. Davros isn't evil because he is in a chair, it's just a result of his accident. A lifelong fan like RTD should be able to see that.

    Just watched the behind the scenes clip, why stop at Davros. They do realize that Davros is an alien in a science fiction series. The Cybermen have bionic parts/limbs so is that not an issue, the Daleks in principal are the same as Davros so do they need a complete redesign.

    No more Sontarans, can't have any folically challenged members of the audience feeling discriminated against.

    Fans everywhere rejoiced at the news of RTD returning.... awkward.

    2kgsRbT.gif

    I hope I am wrong, and I will give the new series as chance for a few episodes. But this fills me will a little feeling of dread. Worst case scenario, I drop out of the show again, until the next era.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,420
    I saw a bts clip of RTD explaining it and I think he is badly misguided on this. Davros isn't evil because he is in a chair, it's just a result of his accident. A lifelong fan like RTD should be able to see that.

    I think if you’d grown up in a wheelchair and been taunted by being called ‘Davros’ in the playground you’d have a different take on it.
    Read some of this wheelchair-using guy’s tweets: https://x.com/blacklocktommy/status/1725629377893769615?s=46&t=DrSft9SScWOr6ycsq2Nv4w

    It’s not whether the evil is caused by the chair, it’s associating evil with it. It’s a stigma thing.
    Compared to the good this sort of thing does for some people, what are you actually losing? Is your life being diminished?
    The Blofeld pre title scene from FYEO does that need editing out?

    No-one’s editing anything out. But I do hope that we won’t be associating facial scarring with baddies further in the Bond series: it’s a bit unnecessary.
    Gerard wrote: »
    And Robert Ironside was in a wheelchair and was a good guy, so there.

    You had to go back 60 years to find one example! :D
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,146
    .
    I saw a bts clip of RTD explaining it and I think he is badly misguided on this. Davros isn't evil because he is in a chair, it's just a result of his accident. A lifelong fan like RTD should be able to see that.

    Just watched the behind the scenes clip, why stop at Davros. They do realize that Davros is an alien in a science fiction series. The Cybermen have bionic parts/limbs so is that not an issue, the Daleks in principal are the same as Davros so do they need a complete redesign.

    No more Sontarans, can't have any folically challenged members of the audience feeling discriminated against.

    Fans everywhere rejoiced at the news of RTD returning.... awkward.

    2kgsRbT.gif

    I hope I am wrong, and I will give the new series as chance for a few episodes. But this fills me will a little feeling of dread. Worst case scenario, I drop out of the show again, until the next era.

    I will keep a close eye on what RTD does with his episodes he will do well not to fall into his own trap and become a hypocrite.

    I was thinking yesterday as Chuti's first season is a reboot, when Tenant leaves again it may be a good jumping off point if RTD is doubling down on what Chibnal did.

    I will happily stick to watching everything up until the end of Smith's era (he was supposed to be the last Doctor) and a few standout Capaldi episodes.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    You’re not going to watch it because of a wheelchair?
    The idea of the Doctor is to be ‘never cowardly or cruel’ and people love watching that, but if the show itself embraces that aspiration then people suddenly turn off? I don’t get it.
  • Posts: 5,994
    No-one’s editing anything out. But I do hope that we won’t be associating facial scarring with baddies further in the Bond series: it’s a bit unnecessary.

    Not to mention tht Bond himself had a facial scar in the novels.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,420
    Gerard wrote: »
    No-one’s editing anything out. But I do hope that we won’t be associating facial scarring with baddies further in the Bond series: it’s a bit unnecessary.

    Not to mention tht Bond himself had a facial scar in the novels.

    But never in the films; the baddies were always the scarred ones (Camille a rare exception). And plenty on here have been up for the idea of movie Bond having a scar.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,146
    mtm wrote: »
    You’re not going to watch it because of a wheelchair?
    The idea of the Doctor is to be ‘never cowardly or cruel’ and people love watching that, but if the show itself embraces that aspiration then people suddenly turn off? I don’t get it.

    I have not quit on the show just yet, RTD has credit in the bank and has proven to be a talented multi layered story teller. I am just not happy one of the most iconic science fiction characters has been dramatically changed going forward for reasons that don't hold water.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    I think the reasons hold water perfectly: they’re trying to do a bit of good in the world. In a way which doesn’t harm us at all.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,146
    mtm wrote: »
    I think the reasons hold water perfectly: they’re trying to do a bit of good in the world. In a way which doesn’t harm us at all.

    But no one other than RTD has suggested that Davros in his iconic look is offensive, they have slapped that label on him nobody else has. Not in 60 years has Davros ever been an issue as far as I am aware.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited November 2023 Posts: 13,978
    mtm wrote: »
    I think if you’d grown up in a wheelchair and been taunted by being called ‘Davros’ in the playground you’d have a different take on it.
    Read some of this wheelchair-using guy’s tweets: https://x.com/blacklocktommy/status/1725629377893769615?s=46&t=DrSft9SScWOr6ycsq2Nv4w

    It’s not whether the evil is caused by the chair, it’s associating evil with it. It’s a stigma thing.
    Compared to the good this sort of thing does for some people, what are you actually losing? Is your life being diminished?

    If you honestly think it will make any difference to how people act towards the disabled, then I want to come and live in your fantasy world. Some people are just going to cruel bar stewards with or without Davros as we have known him. They will change the insult, that's all. They aren't suddenly going to have an epiphany because of a fictitious character.
    I will keep a close eye on what RTD does with his episodes he will do well not to fall into his own trap and become a hypocrite.

    I was thinking yesterday as Chuti's first season is a reboot, when Tenant leaves again it may be a good jumping off point if RTD is doubling down on what Chibnal did.

    I will happily stick to watching everything up until the end of Smith's era (he was supposed to be the last Doctor) and a few standout Capaldi episodes.

    I will give it a few episodes, I think that is fair. I was initially against the casting of Smith, but watched anyway, and by Victory Of The Daleks, I was won over. I was probably won over by the end of The Eleventh Hour, but definitely by Victory Of The Daleks.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,420
    mtm wrote: »
    I think the reasons hold water perfectly: they’re trying to do a bit of good in the world. In a way which doesn’t harm us at all.

    But no one other than RTD has suggested that Davros in his iconic look is offensive, they have slapped that label on him nobody else has. Not in 60 years has Davros ever been an issue as far as I am aware.

    I mean, I already posted a link to a wheelchair user who confirms RTD's point. When you say 'no-one' you're really only speaking for yourself.

    And he didn't say it was offensive; it's more about creating a stigma around certain people.
    mtm wrote: »
    I think if you’d grown up in a wheelchair and been taunted by being called ‘Davros’ in the playground you’d have a different take on it.
    Read some of this wheelchair-using guy’s tweets: https://x.com/blacklocktommy/status/1725629377893769615?s=46&t=DrSft9SScWOr6ycsq2Nv4w

    It’s not whether the evil is caused by the chair, it’s associating evil with it. It’s a stigma thing.
    Compared to the good this sort of thing does for some people, what are you actually losing? Is your life being diminished?

    If you honestly think it will make any difference to how people act towards the disabled, then I want to come and live in your fantasy world. Some people are just going to cruel bar stewards with or without Davros as we have known him. They will change the insult, that's all. They aren't suddenly going to have an epiphany because of a fictitious character.

    This is simplistic thinking, and it depends upon a strawman point which no-one has made. RTD is under no illusions that changing this one thing will suddenly make all ableism disappear- if he did say that then please link to his comments so I can be corrected. But he's just doing his small part, and hoping that everyone else will join in and help to slowly turn the tanker around.
    Trying to be patronising by accusing me of living in a fantasy world won't really work, because the real fantasy world is the one in which everything in the cultural world exists in a vacuum and doesn't combine with other depictions in fiction to help to create attitudes and stereotypes. I'll ask you again since you dodged the question, if this act in a very small way makes someone's life a little less miserable, what have you actually lost?

    It should be noted that he made the comments as part of a charity programme, the point of which is to help disadvantaged children. I think the context helps.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited November 2023 Posts: 25,146
    I am not exclusively speaking for myself and have very broad experience regarding this which i am not going to go into on here.

    Here is an idea just don't use the Davros character anymore and it won't bring attention to him creating a stigma, is changing Davros also contributing to 'stigmatizing?'
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,420
    I am not exclusively speaking for myself and have very broad experience regarding this which i am not going to go into on here.

    So the wheelchair user who confirmed it was wrong? And any others who agree would be too?
    Did you ever see Phoenix Nights, where a joke was made of Peter Kay's main character being called 'Davros' by one of the other characters?
    Here is an idea just don't use the Davros character anymore and it won't bring attention to him creating a stigma, is changing Davros also contributing to 'stigmatizing?'

    Not really sure why it would be; but as to your first point, I think it's likely we probably won't see him much again as he hasn't exactly had much airtime in the last ten years.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,146
    mtm wrote: »
    I am not exclusively speaking for myself and have very broad experience regarding this which i am not going to go into on here.

    So the wheelchair user who confirmed it was wrong? And any others who agree would be too?

    People have different opinions and perspectives, don't try to gaslight me.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    mtm wrote: »
    I am not exclusively speaking for myself and have very broad experience regarding this which i am not going to go into on here.

    So the wheelchair user who confirmed it was wrong? And any others who agree would be too?

    People have different opinions and perspectives, don't try to gaslight me.

    That's not what gaslighting is; you literally said that 'no one other than RTD' has thought this; I gave you an example of someone other than RTD thinking it. I'm glad that you now see that other people have different perspectives on this.
    I tend to think that someone who has said that they've been on the receiving end of the negative results of this kind of thing in their daily life has a more compelling point on this than folks who just like seeing it on their tellies.

    Here's the TV Tropes page on villainous scarring:

    Good Scars, Evil Scars

    "You can easily tell heroes from villains by their scars.

    Good guys tend to scar in an attractive, fashionable manner..... Bad guys.. more often than not they have big raised slashes (often running up the face, stopping just below the eye, then continuing from the eyebrow up) and mottled, discolored burns."
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 5,994
    You had to go back 60 years to find one example!

    How about Chiron, then ? From Percy Jackson, played by none other than Pierce Brosnan.

    9807a97ac7b65c922fcd75c2aa0f0edc.jpg

    And there's Barbara Gordon, AKA Oracle :

    s-l1200.webp

    oraclefilm.jpg?w=222&h=300

  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    large.jpg
    "There is always injustice to fight. There is always a new danger for the universe. But what if the Doctor found a way to put things right, once and for all? Would it really be so terrible to take a stand? Would the end justify the means? And would his friends agree? The Seventh Doctor’s last day is coming…"

    I'm a little disappointed to see no sign of Raine or Klein, unless they are being held back for Day Two.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    Must admit I'd be interested to hear Kane again; he was great.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    I made a gif of the clip of the new version of The Daleks; I think it looks great.

    giphy.gif
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited November 2023 Posts: 5,970
    Nice one @mtm,

    I can’t believe we’re finally getting the first episode of the Tennant specials this weekend. It kinda feels like yesterday that Jodie regenerated, but I’m super excited and that speaks for itself because I haven’t been this excited about Doctor Who for quite a long time. The last series I enjoyed was Series 9.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited November 2023 Posts: 13,978
    A belated Happy 99th(!) birthday to William Russell. <:-P

    Ian: Not until we're satisfied that Susan isn't in there. And frankly, I don't understand your attitude.
    The Doctor: Yours leaves a lot to be desired.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Nice one @mtm,

    I can’t believe we’re finally getting the first episode of the Tennant specials this weekend. It kinda feels like yesterday that Jodie regenerated, but I’m super excited and that speaks for itself because I haven’t been this excited about Doctor Who for quite a long time. The last series I enjoyed was Series 9.

    Yes, indeed; it's been over a year, bizarrely! Which I think shows that it was a good idea for him to appear in his new costume at the end of the last one- that clip has been shown endlessly over the last year and I think it's better we got that image of his fully-fledged self.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited November 2023 Posts: 5,970
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Nice one @mtm,

    I can’t believe we’re finally getting the first episode of the Tennant specials this weekend. It kinda feels like yesterday that Jodie regenerated, but I’m super excited and that speaks for itself because I haven’t been this excited about Doctor Who for quite a long time. The last series I enjoyed was Series 9.

    Yes, indeed; it's been over a year, bizarrely! Which I think shows that it was a good idea for him to appear in his new costume at the end of the last one- that clip has been shown endlessly over the last year and I think it's better we got that image of his fully-fledged self.
    100%. I also find it crazy, given how a lot of discussion was made about how this new series with Tennant and Tate returning will be a good palate cleanser after the not-so-successful Jodie-era, it seems the promotional material for the new series has done that on its own.
  • Posts: 5,994
    This just in : Shirley Ballas and the professional dancers from Strictly Come Dancing will appear in a future episode of Doctor Who :

    https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-shirley-ballas-guest-role-on-newsupdate/

    Well, given the number of times Doctor Who has been tributed on Strictly..., it was just a matter of time.





  • CharmianBondCharmianBond Pett Bottom, Kent
    Posts: 557
    The musical episode's looking more and more likely. Outdoing Star Trek's one is gonna be a tall order imo but if anyone can do it's RTD.
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