'Anyone for a jelly baby ? ' - Doctor Who discussion thread.

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  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I don't think it is to do with the gender, but what she is inside. Which is why I brought up the topic of sexuality, if that was the topic at hand, the show would be preaching that you can't hide what you really are. The Master just is evil, in the same way that the Doctor is good.

    As for Missy not regenerating, I don't believe that for one second. Eric Roberts Master from the 1996 film, was supposed to be out of regenerations (which is why he tried to steal the remaining regenerations that The Doctor had), but since then we have seen The Master in 3 more forms (Jacobi, Simm & Gomez).
  • Posts: 12,837
    I understand but I don't think moral compass is comparable to sexuality really. Criminals are reformed all the time so it isn't completely out of the ordinary. And it's not like her evil urges just disappeared, she did say just before trying to leave that she loved being The Master. The way I took it is that she just felt that after all that had happened this series it was time to put that aside and do right by the person who believed in her.

    I think that the script made a point of saying she couldn't regenerate to make it clear that she was dead, but also kept it intentionally vague as to whether or not Gomez followed Simm. Maybe Moffat wanted to finally give the master a clear definitive ending while still leaving room for them to appear in the future. So Missy is the last one and that is the end of the character, but there's plenty of room for other stories/versions inbetween.
  • Posts: 7,653
    That was a grand adventure this last series and with the Doctor regenerating I do believe the new showrunner and the next actor know who it is and it will be the grand surprise this Christmas I hope.

    Also looking forward to some multi Doctor episodes especially if the Eight is involved.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I understand but I don't think moral compass is comparable to sexuality really.

    I wouldn't say they are comparable either. But the point I am making what the show would be preaching, if it were about sexuality, and the notion of not being able to be able hide ones real self can be carried over to The Master. Now I know that the original idea was for The Master to give his life to save The Doctor, but we are so far past that now.
    Criminals are reformed all the time so it isn't completely out of the ordinary.

    But we aren't talking about someone who indulges in mugging, twocking or armed robbery. The Master appeared reformed in The Sea Devils, didn't last long.
    And it's not like her evil urges just disappeared, she did say just before trying to leave that she loved being The Master. The way I took it is that she just felt that after all that had happened this series it was time to put that aside and do right by the person who believed in her.

    That's what I have a hard time believing. The idea of The Master suddenly giving a... about The Doctor believing in him/her. The Master should be too busy putting his/her dastardly plan in motion.
    I think that the script made a point of saying she couldn't regenerate to make it clear that she was dead, but also kept it intentionally vague as to whether or not Gomez followed Simm. Maybe Moffat wanted to finally give the master a clear definitive ending while still leaving room for them to appear in the future. So Missy is the last one and that is the end of the character, but there's plenty of room for other stories/versions inbetween.

    I highly doubt that Missy will be the last one. If Roberts was the last one, and he was, but somehow managed to get a whole new cycle of regenerations, then The Master will be back. Maybe, like Smith, the next Doctor wont encounter The Master, but the one after that could.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 12,837
    Fair enough. I guess it comes down to execution at the end of the day. I found it fairly
    believeable but I'm not that familiar with the old series. The only episodes I've seen with the master have been the movie and the new series. If you've seen the countless older episodes where he tries to kill the doctor, take over the universe, etc, then I'm sure the whole redemption premise of the last few episodes would be harder to swallow.

    I think the character will definitely be back, but because of how intentionally vague it was in terms of the timeline (Missy saying that she didn't know if she was the next one after Simm), they could keep that as the end but still have the master appear in the future by going with a version between the two. Not sure if that's what they'll do, they could just as easily find a way to carry on from Gomez since the master has "died" countless times, but I think that was Moffat's intention.

    @SaintMark do you think we could be seeing more actors in the christmas special? It seems like the story is going to be Capaldi persuading the first doctor to regenerate and deciding to do so himself in the process. Maybe he could do that by showing him all the stuff he'll go on to do.
  • Posts: 498
    The entire time I was thinking, "this is a pretty good episode, I hope Moffat doesn't mess it up"... and then the last 10 minutes happened.
    Magic Water Girl showing up to save the day, while suddenly being omnipotent and able to talk normally now was one of the stupidest things I've ever seen on the show.
  • It was a little shame that since the companion flashback scene was supposed to reflect the Doctor's whole life, that we didn't see a cry of 'Doctor!' from at least Susan, Jamie and Ace. Although since they have never appeared in the 2005 series (apart from in photographic form with Susan) there was always a risk that the vast majority of the audience would have been perplexed, so I understand that, but surely they were much more important to the Doctor than Madam Vastra and Jenny!

    The classic series also confuses the portrayal of The Master we saw at the weekend. Yes, Simm wore a fantastic Delgado/Ainley beard and black outfit, but the whole 'I will never stand with The Doctor!' could only refer to the Simm incarnation, as much of Delgado's reign involved him launching an improbable plot with an alien ally, which inevitably went awry, forcing him to work with the Doctor to defeat the menace he himself had caused. All glorious stuff though. Delgado was the Moriarty to the Doctor's Holmes and in my opinion is still the greatest version.

    Really enjoyed the concluding two-parter, but feel sad that Capaldi has really nailed the character now just as he is leaving.

    Still, he got to play his childhood hero. How many actors get to say that?

  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Peter Capaldi leaving is less to do with Dr Who 'fans' who would keep him in the role indefinitely, and more to do with pandering to the pre pubescent teeny girls and..well, women of all ages I guess, who want to bill and coo over a young, quirky Doctor.

    I gave a similar rant on Sunday morning to my family and after a pause my daughter said 'I like Matt Smith'. So I gave up.

    My wife and daughter, avid watchers once upon a time have deserted the show since Capaldi came in and no amount of persuading from me alters that. So, I'm a fan of the show and I lose. My wife and daughter who want to stare at an attractive young Doctor leaping around making funny gags, well they win.

    Pissed.
  • Posts: 12,837
    NicNac wrote: »
    Peter Capaldi leaving is less to do with Dr Who 'fans' who would keep him in the role indefinitely, and more to do with pandering to the pre pubescent teeny girls and..well, women of all ages I guess, who want to bill and coo over a young, quirky Doctor.

    I gave a similar rant on Sunday morning to my family and after a pause my daughter said 'I like Matt Smith'. So I gave up.

    My wife and daughter, avid watchers once upon a time have deserted the show since Capaldi came in and no amount of persuading from me alters that. So, I'm a fan of the show and I lose. My wife and daughter who want to stare at an attractive young Doctor leaping around making funny gags, well they win.

    Pissed.

    To be fair I think better material would have helped as well. I didn't really enjoy series 8 until the very end and barely watched series 9 because it just seemed like more of the same. This last series has been great though and Capaldi has completely owned it. Moffat definitely deserves praise for casting him because he could have just as easily cast another young pretty boy actor and done a retread of what came before.

    I read an interview with Chris Chibnall where he talked about taking big risks when he takes over but to be honest I'm fully expecting a David Tennant/Matt Smith sort of actor. The show has never really managed to escape Tennant's shadow in terms of popularity so I'm sure the BBC will go down that route.

    I wonder if this would have panned out the same way if Ecclestone hadn't left. The show was still very popular during its first series iirc so maybe if he'd stayed on until Moffat came in with Smith, Tennant wouldn't be seen as the go to standard. But would someone like Smith have even been cast if it weren't for Tennant's popularity?* I don't know. Just weird how its played out, with that sort of doctor being what people want, when that wasn't the direction they were going with it at all back in 2005.

    *I did read a rumour that Patterson Joseph was all but officially cast, but he was worried about tokenism so didn't want to sign on for more than a year at a time, and the BBC got cold feet at the last minute so Smith (similar to Tennant in a lot of ways) was picked instead.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Like Bond, there are many "what ifs" with Doctor Who. What if the show hadn't been cancelled in 1989? And how different would the show have turned out in the last 12 years? For the former, I think Richard Griffiths would have made a wonderful 8th Doctor, followed by Richard E. Grant as the 9th Doctor (which he already played in Scream Of The Shalka).

    Personally, I liked Smith. Of the modern run of Doctors, he is the one which I like the most. But there is no getting away from the fact that his casting brought a demographic that weren't fans, had no interest in the history of the show, and got angry when he was replaced by an "old man".
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Interesting points @thelivingroyale.

    When Moffat took over I assumed he didn't want to take any chances and therefore cast a young, quirky actor (Smith) to follow DT. And I assumed the new head boy would do the same.

    Then, like Moffat did with the older Capaldi, he will take a gamble on his second Doctor (almost nailed on a woman, regardless of who is best for the role).

    But, I didn't know about Paterson Joseph. Interesting.
  • Posts: 12,837
    To be honest the Patterson Joseph thing is something I've heard from a few different sources, forums, etc, and sort of pieced together, I'm not sure if that is exactly what happened. But I think it's pretty certain that he auditioned (he's said so himself) and was seriously considered (I remember a writer on the show said a black actor turned it down once, I'm assuming that was him).

    That's an interesting thought. He might go with a Tennant esque actor to try and get the ratings up again before doing something riskier in a few years time if he's still around. I'm not opposed to a woman really, because it's not like Bond where it's the same character. They've established he can change into literally anyone or anything.

    I agree that if that's gonna happen any time soon though, it'll be with his second doctor rather than the next one. For the upcoming actor I'm fully expecting them to play it as safe as possible. White, male, young, good looking in a geeky sort of way.

    Can we expect a reveal soon? Capaldi and Smith were revealed in the summer weren't they?
  • Posts: 19,339
    I heard about Patterson Joseph too,and I know Joanna Lumley's name was thrown around as well.

    But the part of the last episode that made me laugh and I thought was a lovely touch was the Doctor offering a jelly baby out of a paper bag.

    A tribute to the great Tom Baker....a lovely touch.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Indeed it was Barry. But I like the way each Doctor is now given something as a sort of 'handle'. An item to link them to. Tenent had his special specs, Smith the fezz, Capaldi an electric guitar.

    My only issue with a woman is that the pressure put on them to cast a woman is too pronounced. No way would we be allowed to demand the casting of a man in a part we have recognised as being female. No chance.

    Yet, despite these bleeding heart feminists demanding more for women, TV is currently awash with great actresses getting so many plumb parts. The other day I listed many of them off the top of my head. And now it seems nailed on that one of TVs plumb parts for male actors will have to be given up.
  • Posts: 12,837
    NicNac wrote: »
    Indeed it was Barry. But I like the way each Doctor is now given something as a sort of 'handle'. An item to link them to. Tenent had his special specs, Smith the fezz, Capaldi an electric guitar.

    I think that's one of the reasons Eccleston is still my favourite. Not very eccentric, no gimmicks, no quirky costume. Very stripped back and down to earth.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Yes indeed, I couldn't think of an Eccleston thing. Had he stayed on it may have been different. Smith's fezz appeared late on and maybe only a couple of times - but it kind of stuck.

    As for your comments about DW if Eccleston had stayed on. I somehow think that Tennent is more 'user friendly', more appealing to a wider audience. Eccleston, like Capaldi has many merits, but mass audience appeal may not be one of them.

    No room for experimentation at the Beeb any more I'm afraid.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I associate the leather jacket as Ecclestone's 'signature prop'.

    Tennant is the best Doctor in recent years by far IMO.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Hope that is not the last of the Master/Missy?!!! The cockpit scene with Nardol was hilarious!
    Thought Watergirl was a VERY cheap get out to save Bill Potts let alone that whole idea! As for the set up to the Christmas special? Roll on December as I think it could be a belter for once!!! As the Christmas episodes always have to be Christmassy which does my head in! Please make this one different!
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Just been looking back at old posts. At one point in about June 2013 the bookies favourite for the next Doctor (replacing Smith) was Rory Kinnear. Books were actually being closed!

    Ten minutes before the special TV show which announced the new Doctor (August 2013) @thelivingroyale actually called it- Peter Capaldi.

    Can you remember that @thelivingroyale? Where did you get that from?
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 12,837
    @NicNac I think it was a last minute sort of thing. He wasn't on the lists at all as far as I remember and then he was suddenly the favourite on William Hill just a day or two before. So him suddenly becoming the bookies favourite out of nowhere combined with him seeming like a plausible choice (I think John Hurt being cast in the 50th had made me think that Moffat would be open to an older actor) made me think it'd be him.

    That's why I don't think it'll be Kris Marshall. He sounds like a believeable choice but the bookies rarely get it right this far in advance. I reckon we'll be able to make a guess soon enough though. I think once the BBC set a date for the announcement we'll just have to keep an eye on the odds as it gets closer. If there's a dramatic rise in interest like there was for Capaldi, that could be the next doctor.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I think that's one of the reasons Eccleston is still my favourite. Not very eccentric, no gimmicks, no quirky costume. Very stripped back and down to earth.

    I think that might be why his is one of my least favourite Doctors. The quirky/eccentric/offbeat costume is almost part of what the character is. It is like the next Bond actor not wanting to wear a dinner jacket.

    @RogueAgent - It wont be. The Master has come back even after reaching the end of his regeneration cycle. Smith never encountered The Master, and the next Doctor might not either, but the one after that could.
  • gumboltgumbolt Now with in-office photocopier
    Posts: 153
    I think the Beeb will be looking to cast "Poldark in Space" to bring in the necessary demographics. That may be an annoying sign of the times but if a pretty boy can act the part and DW stays a strong, important show then I will be happy.
    They won't go female - and anyway, if my understanding of the sisterhood is correct, a female Doctor would be subject to vicious criticism and scornful rejection by female viewers anyway!
  • Posts: 12,837
    All this talk of a woman getting the part got me wondering if it had ever come close to happening before, and I couldn't find anything about any female actors being considered for the new series, but I did find this

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.denofgeek.com/us/tv/doctor-who/256943/doctor-who-creator-sydney-newman-had-plans-for-a-female-doctor

    Apparently back in the 80s one of the creators of the show wanted a female doctor. So surely he's got some sort of authority on the subject? I wouldn't mind really. I think one of the strengths of the show is how the lead can change completely.
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Finally, in his final season, we get some scripts that allow Capaldi to fulfill his potential.

    Exactly how I feel.
    I think that's one of the reasons Eccleston is still my favourite. Not very eccentric, no gimmicks, no quirky costume. Very stripped back and down to earth.

    I think that might be why his is one of my least favourite Doctors. The quirky/eccentric/offbeat costume is almost part of what the character is. It is like the next Bond actor not wanting to wear a dinner jacket.

    @RogueAgent - It wont be. The Master has come back even after reaching the end of his regeneration cycle. Smith never encountered The Master, and the next Doctor might not either, but the one after that could.

    Can't argue with that to be fair, but I think a more stripped back/modernised take, played by a highly regarded serious drama actor, was just what was needed to regain credibility and get the show taken seriously again when they relaunched it. It was what got me interested anyway. And he did still have a recognisable costume/look. Then once they found their footing they gradually began to reintroduce the quirks and eccentricity. When Smith turned up in his bow tie and tweed, they could get away with that because the show was hugely popular again and they could pretty much do whatever they wanted. In 2005 it may have been a bit naff imo, even if they did make a point of taking the piss out of the eccentric costumes when they did reintroduce them.

    With The Master, I think the reason Moffat kept it vague in terms of whether or not Missy followed Simm is so he could have it both ways. Missy can be the last one and that can be the end but The Master can still come back: they can have as many incarnations as they like between Simm and Gomez.
  • Posts: 1,165
    I'm very confused about Heather (water/ star-eyed girl). Wasn't she a threat to Bill and the Doctor in the first episode. Didn't see turn into a big water monster and try to kill them at one stage?
    Why all of a sudden is she a hero who just steps in and saves the day?
  • Posts: 5,993
    One word : Love. And she didn't try to kill Bill, she wanted her to be her passenger. The Doctor was simply in the way.

    In short, the episode was great. Loved the little references, the interplay between the characters and the little touches, like the Master training to use make-up. And that cliffhanger makes me very impatient to see the Christmas special. The one thing I didn't like wa that Bill was saved by a "Deus Ex Machina", or rather, in this case, a "Dea Ex Aqua". But she's not the first companion to which that happens, even in the classics.

    BTW, I just finished "horror of Fang Rock", or rather, as I call it "Carnage at Fang Rock". Really good, even considering that this time, nobody but the Doctor and Leela survives the encounter with the Ruthless Rutan. Hmmm, here is a monster that is due for a return, methinks.
  • Posts: 12,837
    I'm in two minds about Bill's ending. I know it was sort of a cop out and I would have loved it if they'd had the balls to be proper bleak with the ending and have Bill killed in the explosion, since I don't actually get how she survived anyway (with the doctor I just assumed him already regenerating stopped him being blown to bits, like when David Tennant could regrow his hand). But at least they set it up early on, and I liked Bill so much that I was glad she got a happy ending.

    And it's still pretty depressing when you think about it. Bill presumably thinks The Doctor is dead, and he'll think she is too. So they'll both mourn each other not knowing the other one is alive, and The Doctor will never know that Missy was going to come through for him in the end either (because she literally couldn't escape her past, very clever).

    I really hope that whenever The Master inevitably returns, instead of resurrecting him again the writers take advantage of the leeway Moffat left them and have the next version be post Simm but pre Gomez. It was quite good really how he gave the character a great ending but left infinite room for other versions in between.

    Actually we never saw Simm regenerate did we. And he was only stabbed at the end of the day. He's survived worse than that. How about he got himself to some space hospital after he escaped, he was saved, probably murdered everyone there and now we can have him back as the master for the foreseeable. Please?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    edited July 2017 Posts: 7,582
    All this talk of a woman getting the part got me wondering if it had ever come close to happening before, and I couldn't find anything about any female actors being considered for the new series, but I did find this

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.denofgeek.com/us/tv/doctor-who/256943/doctor-who-creator-sydney-newman-had-plans-for-a-female-doctor

    Apparently back in the 80s one of the creators of the show wanted a female doctor. So surely he's got some sort of authority on the subject? I wouldn't mind really. I think one of the strengths of the show is how the lead can change completely.

    When Tom Baker left the role in 1981 his parting comment at the press conference was that he wished every success to the next actor 'whoever he or she may be' and despite this being a provocative little joke on Tom's part it did send the media into a bit of a frenzy.

    That was the first time I remember the suggestion of a female Doctor.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 19,339
    Just in :

    John Simm admits he's open to Doctor Who return

    John Simm is open to the idea of reprising the role of The Master on 'Doctor Who'.

    The 46-year-old actor previously starred as the nemesis of the Doctor in the much-loved sci-fi series and has suggested he would like to return the role on the BBC show.

    Asked about the possibility, he said: "You know what, I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't have thought in a million years that I'd be back [in 2017], yet here I am talking about it, so never say never.

    "So you never know. This thing called 'Doctor Who' is a machine that just sort of goes on its own. It's got its own rules. And if they want you back, then great. I would definitely think about it."

    The Doctor and The Master were childhood friends before they developed an intense rivalry, with the iconic Time Lord ultimately coming to view John's former character as his arch-enemy.

    Actress Michelle Gomez has played a female incarnation of the character since 2014, but confirmed in May that the tenth series would be her last in the role.

    Despite this, John - who first played The Master in 2007, before returning for a two-part special in 2009 - considers it unlikely that he will be offered the opportunity to reprise the role in the future.

    Speaking to Doctor Who Magazine, he shared: "Will they ask? I doubt it. But I don't know. I mean, I'm very, very lucky to have worked with two Doctors. Two brilliant, brilliant actors.

    "So if not, I will count myself blessed to have been asked back; to have played him these two times. That's wonderful. And we shall see. Who knows? Yeah, never say never. That's very true."

  • Posts: 12,837
    Great news. I get the sense that he was a lot happier with the material this time because I remember an interview a few years ago when he was doing Mad Dogs (well worth a watch by the way) and he didn't seem keen on coming back at all, and from what I remember that last David Tennant one he did was pretty dire.

    I think it's probably best to give the character a rest for a few years now but when he does eventually appear again I hope it's Simm playing him.
  • Posts: 12,837
    I think Matt Ryan would be a good choice for the next actor. There was something Doctor Whoish about his performance in Constantine

    11135937637af20bf387c09f35661b5f--matt-ryan-constantine-constantine-nbc.jpg

    constantine-matt-ryan-100252.jpg
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