The Next American President Thread (2016)

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    There you go again with the ad hominems.

    I've already explained my view on things in the long post I made a few weeks back. The answers to your questions are there. You've forgotten it, or choose to ignore it. I'm not going to repeat myself here.

    When I mentioned the economic speeches, I was speaking in the context of press coverage on it, in comparison to gossip last week (I was not directing anything at you personally, unlike what you're currently doing). It was basically ignored. That's not good for democracy. It is that kind of behaviour that leads people to vote for someone like Donald Trump. He is a product of his environment, nothing less.

    If the focus isn't turned to the issues quickly, this election will go down as one of the great missed opportunities. With two candidates with such high negatives, there is a perfect opportunity to direct the discussion to the issues, because the personality element should be less important. Instead it's going in the other direction.
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    There you go again with the ad hominems.

    I've already explained my view on things in the long post I made a few weeks back. The answers to your questions are there. You've forgotten it, or choose to ignore it. I'm not going to repeat myself here.

    When I mentioned the economic speeches, I was speaking in the context of press coverage on it, in comparison to gossip last week (I was not directing anything at you personally, unlike what you're currently doing). It was basically ignored. That's not good for democracy. It is that kind of behaviour that leads people to vote for someone like Donald Trump. He is a product of his environment, nothing less.

    If the focus isn't turned to the issues quickly, this election will go down as one of the great missed opportunities. With two candidates with such high negatives, there is a perfect opportunity to direct the discussion to the issues, because the personality element should be less important. Instead it's going in the other direction.

    Oooh stop it. I read your extensive post. But it confuses me much more since you are travelling between two places, Canada and USA. Obviously, in your case, I would say that a more intense economic free trade union between Canada and the USA, something that both Trudeau and Obama hinted at, could be beneficial for your own personal situation. Alas, you didn't go thát much into detail about your profession.

    But that's besides the point. I think one week after you made that huge post, Trump came up with his huge economic speech in Detroit. And frankly, either I misread or missed your views on that speech, but I didn't find it. You could have dissected that speech and give your own personal opinion about it. But if you don't want to do that, then I think I have every right to firmly criticize you.

    Stop feeling so mistreated, and give your opinion about that bit of contents Trump actually uttered. You have the chance of bringing back some talk about the issues here, which I did on several occasions.
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 15,233
    Fact of the matter is, inventing imaginary solutions for real problems is at best useless, at worst destructive. And even if said issues are not brought forward enough by "the medias", or "the career politicians", or whoever does not make the populists' and the demagogues' views on the matters more legitimate. Especially when all they bring are imaginary or unrealistic solutions! Because if Trump is elected (however unlikely the possibility is right now), he will lead a real country, with real people in it, dealing with real issues. He needs real, applicable solutions. Whatever his fascistic simpleton's mind may feel (because he does not think much), the USA will not solve anything by the simple willpower of its president.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I'm not going to get into a discussion on the economic speech with you @Gustav_Graves. Not only did Trump give a speech on the economy, but so did Hillary. These were not covered extensively by the national media and that is a disservice to the public. I have looked through the proposals and I like elements from both candidates but do not support either view whole heartedly. I'm not 'wed' to any viewpoint, because as I've said so many times before, these have to pass Congress (I don't know why I have to keep repeating this).

    Getting into debates with people who's mind is made up is pointless. You've already expressed 'fear' several times about Trump, and even about me. That is a raw emotion. If you are fearful about a forum member that you have conversed with for a few years, then there is not much I can do.

    I don't fear Trump. I applaud him for speaking his mind and for raising foreign policy issues (in particular) that have to be addressed. I wish he'd come up with more concrete proposals to the issues that he has raised, but it is what it is. He's no politician and he's not a great articulate speaker either. He's a media personality and businessman. One who's probably as surprised as the rest of us that he's gone this far. He's unlikely to win (given current polls) unless he turns his campaign around and gets more serious about the solutions that he has for the country. If he can't do that, then at least he will have brought issues that aren't going away to the fore, and as I said, this will make it very difficult for Hillary to govern during the next four years.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Trump vs. Clinton; whoever wins, America loses.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Trump vs. Clinton; whoever wins, America loses.
    Quote of the thread imho.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    This is worth a read, and not very long. Written by a conservative, about press coverage and how this election is different:

  • Posts: 15,233
    bondjames wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Trump vs. Clinton; whoever wins, America loses.
    Quote of the thread imho.

    No doubt but let's not make a false equivalence here: with Trump America and the world would lose far more.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Trump vs. Clinton; whoever wins, America loses.
    Quote of the thread imho.

    No doubt but let's not make a false equivalence here: with Trump America and the world would lose far more.
    There is a misguided belief (due to Trump's shenanigans) that we are in good times with the status quo.

    That's not the case. We have had 9 years of excess government debt pile on (in contrast to private debt prior to that), a massive global asset bubble (particularly in housing), an explosion of violence in the Middle East and elsewhere, tensions with Russia that are at boiling point (and which are likely to explode on the Ukraine/Crimea border shortly), an increasingly belligerent China, an economic and possible political breakdown of the EU, and simmering tensions within the USA as well (both on the left and right).

    Neither Trump nor Clinton has the stature or statesman/woman quality to lead the US (or the West for that matter) through the mire that will be the next four years.

    As ancient Chinese proverb say (paraphrased), we are in for (very) interesting times.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited August 2016 Posts: 12,480
    Indeed there is no comparison. Clinton has faults and detractors and is not going to be an overwhelming popular candidate on her own. But Trump being elected would be massively more dangerous, sad, and detrimental to our country. Enormous difference.

    For me, I am not bitter or angry about Hillary Clinton. I do support Hillary and do not feel she will be a bad president. I do feel she is qualified and will work with others.
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 11,119
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Trump vs. Clinton; whoever wins, America loses.

    America doesn't loose, and doesn't win either. It's simply not growing anymore, economy-wise. Countries like Russia, Chile, India, China? Perhaps they win.....for now. Factually they are not necessarily winning, but their minds feel more like 'winning'. The USA citizens perhaps not. They feel like loosing, while in essence the prosperity still trumps (funny verb) many other big nations on this planet.

    Perhaps the real message therefore should be:
    "Let's prevent America from loosing. Let's consolidate the America that still is much better than 85% of other nations on this planet."
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited August 2016 Posts: 12,480
    I just like this: with a quote from George Washington, too ~
    (click on each quote to open it fully to read)

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    America's relative decline is inevitable, under the current globalist capitalist model.

    Rapid technological innovation (Moore's law is too conservative to describe the acceleration which is happening now) combined with laissez faire capitalism has taken us to where we are, and the rest of the world is now playing the same game, faster and better. There are only winners and losers in a capitalist model. Lack of growth is calamitous, because it's a debt fueled model.

    Many of the old world powers (China, India, Turkey, Russia, Iran) are in rapid resurgence, and are increasingly ambitious to reclaim their former glory.

    A reset is coming but what form it takes is the only question. Either it's protectionism, or it's war, or it's another financial meltdown triggered by some element we've missed, or it's revolution (armed or otherwise). The status quo is untenable. The global financial system is on life support.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    bondjames wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Trump vs. Clinton; whoever wins, America loses.
    Quote of the thread imho.

    Trump being the Alien & Clinton being the Predator.


    At least you can reason to some degree with a Predator.... :))
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    True, but appropriately enough, that film was a horrendous PoS (21% RT rating) which was far inferior to what had come before from the franchises. Sadly, so is this election.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Very long piece in NY Times. Just for those who would like to take the time, here is the link. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/08/10/magazine/100000004575346.app.html?nytapp=iphone&_r=0

    And if you cannot read all of the article via that direct link, you may be able to thru this tweet (which has the link in the comment). NY times requires a subcription after a few views, I believe. But when linked with a tweet, I think you have access anyway:


  • Posts: 315
    bondjames wrote: »
    There you go again with the ad hominems.

    Oooh stop it. I read your extensive post. But it confuses me much more since you are travelling between two places,... Alas, you didn't go thát much into detail about your profession.

    Hope this helps.
    FAIL-shirtless-fat-dude-works-at-fast-food-place.jpg
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    bondjames wrote: »
    True, but appropriately enough, that film was a horrendous PoS (21% RT rating) which was far inferior to what had come before from the franchises.
    The unrated Blu Ray is actually really good IMHO...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    True, but appropriately enough, that film was a horrendous PoS (21% RT rating) which was far inferior to what had come before from the franchises.
    The unrated Blu Ray is actually really good IMHO...
    I'll have to check that out. I plan on doing an Alien-athon in advance of the release of Alien Covenant next year. PS: I just watched Predators (2010) for the first time last week. Not bad.
  • Watching Trump's ramblings about hairspray makes me genuinely frightened that anyone would consider voting for this man. Whatever you think of his politics, he is quite clearly a total moron.
  • I think I'll bow out of this discussion with that prejudgement. I have never been in America but everywhere in Europe the indigenous population are in threat of being wiped out, without a single shot being fired.

    Don't let the door hit where you oughta sit. You've "never been in America" but you're going to lecture us about "the concept of white American identity"? If this wasn't a serious subject you'd have me on the floor laughing. Get outta here, you working end of a donkey's feces factory!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    So. Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign manager, has this to deal with now. Lots of talk before, and his previous ties with Russian power players are well known; but now there seems to be more to it:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html

    And via a tweet if you cannot read it all above:

    It says in part:
    Handwritten ledgers show $12.7 million in undisclosed cash payments designated for Mr. Manafort from Mr. Yanukovych’s pro-Russian political party from 2007 to 2012, according to Ukraine’s newly formed National Anti-Corruption Bureau. Investigators assert that the disbursements were part of an illegal off-the-books system whose recipients also included election officials.

    In addition, criminal prosecutors are investigating a group of offshore shell companies that helped members of Mr. Yanukovych’s inner circle finance their lavish lifestyles, including a palatial presidential residence with a private zoo, golf course and tennis court. Among the hundreds of murky transactions these companies engaged in was an $18 million deal to sell Ukrainian cable television assets to a partnership put together by Mr. Manafort and a Russian oligarch, Oleg Deripaska, a close ally of President Vladimir V. Putin.
    ***
    “He understood what was happening in Ukraine,” said Vitaliy Kasko, a former senior official with the general prosecutor’s office in Kiev. “It would have to be clear to any reasonable person that the Yanukovych clan, when it came to power, was engaged in corruption.”

    Mr. Kasko added, “It’s impossible to imagine a person would look at this and think, ‘Everything is all right.’”

    Mr. Manafort did not respond to interview requests or written questions from The New York Times. But his lawyer, Richard A. Hibey, said Mr. Manafort had not received “any such cash payments” described by the anti-corruption officials.


  • Posts: 347
    Problem with politics is that they are fundamentally corrupt. As long as candidates rely on private funding, then they are controlled by the donors and beholden to their interests. Candidates will say whatever they can get away with, and do only what is necessary to get people to vote for them. But they don't work for the voter.

    In the UK, and no doubt the US, the same big donors support both main parties - so no matter who you vote for, the 'Government' get in.

    What I find exciting about Trump in the US, and Brexit and Corbyn in the UK is that the voters are moving away from the established interests. Of course, the Establishment hate this, and demonise Trump, Corbyn and Brexit at every opportunity.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited August 2016 Posts: 12,480
    I am glad people are speaking up against corruption and many are pushing to change, in some way, our system. But I want to be clear: Trump deserves every single negative thing that I have read about him. Granted, I am not reading the more hateful things (just like I am not reading the far right, kill Hillary hateful things that are full of false stories). But with what I do read, he deserves what is said about him. I do not feel the media are demonizing him; I don't. He is doing this to himself. I won't speak about British politics as that is not my country and I have not researched the current situation.

    I want to add that we cannot be complacent. Some folks - and certainly many of Trump's supporters (even the ones now mostly disillusioned with him) - will vote for him as a protest. This piece drives this point home ~



    The last thing our country needs is for Trump to win the presidency. So no matter how huge a margin various polls say Hillary is winning by - don't take any of that for granted. Because there will be many protest votes, for various reasons. She feels like the establishment in every way. He is definitely different and therefore enticing to some merely for that reason. No matter how wrong, ugly, racist or dangerous his rhetoric.

    We need a strong voter turnout and less "protest" votes when it comes to a presidential election .... well, most especially this one. That is important.
  • Posts: 315
    I think I'll bow out of this discussion with that prejudgement. I have never been in America but everywhere in Europe the indigenous population are in threat of being wiped out, without a single shot being fired.

    Don't let the door hit where you oughta sit. You've "never been in America" but you're going to lecture us about "the concept of white American identity"? If this wasn't a serious subject you'd have me on the floor laughing. Get outta here, you working end of a donkey's feces factory!

    Any white American who denies there is a "white identity" in this country is ignoring facts and history. Look at what was done to the original inhabitants who believed the land belonged to no one. White people shot many of them, moved into the neighborhood in droves, exploited the land, stripped them of their heritage and forced them into controlled reservations in the worst possible areas. Perhaps you heard 'The only good Indian is a dead Indian''.

    Or do you think the people we brought over here in chains from Africa were treated in an any less harsh manner. They were regarded as livestock, bought and sold in open markets. You know the narrative or perhaps you don't. The truth in history depends on who is writing it. There is not one white person in the U.S. who has not benefited greatly by the actions of others who felt that being a white American makes you the privileged one. Think not...would you prefer to be a 25 year old African American man in Milwaukee or Ferguson or Mobile?

    @Scaramanga spoke a truth that is hard for many of us find hard to face. Sometimes the truth is discovered by someone who looks from the outside and doesn't have a dog in the fight. You don't have to be a parent to have an opinion on child-rearing and corporal punishment. I appreciate your opinion @Scaramanga, so don't bow out now. I'll get that swinging door for you.


  • Lol I want Trump to win just so I can imagine all the libtards crying into their cornflakes and watch the left wing media unable to contain their rage.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Troy wrote: »
    Problem with politics is that they are fundamentally corrupt. As long as candidates rely on private funding, then they are controlled by the donors and beholden to their interests. Candidates will say whatever they can get away with, and do only what is necessary to get people to vote for them. But they don't work for the voter.
    Very true. You will see a turn around in the media coverage of Trump once he starts spending his money on network advertising (so far, he has spent less than the Green Party reportedly despite having raised quite a bit in the past month). Money talks (particularly in US politics) and they're baiting him to open up his coffers. So far, he hasn't fallen for the trap.

    Regarding Brexit and Corbyn, the parallels are uncanny. If he by some chance pulls off a 'come from behind' win in November it will be, as in the case of the UK, because the opposition & the media did not focus on the issues or attempt to seriously address them, but rather focused on demonizing the messenger and the message.

    The only way to beat a groundswell movement is to confront & address its concerns head-on. Remainers failed to do that in the UK, and the results were a shock wave.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,262
    @4EverBonded, that was an interesting piece indeed. Thank you.

    @Scaramanga12, either you're serious, and then I feel sorry for you, or you're not, and then you're just borderline trolling. I suspect the former though. In any case, if Trump's stupid suggestions are your answer to the "problem" of immigration and loss of identity and whatnot, you do realise, I hope, that you've learned nothing from WWII.

    @FLeiter, exactly. As I said in a previous post, most Americans are illegal immigrants. They simply took the country, wiped out its true owners until only a few of them were left whom were then locked up in concentration camps nature reserves, and established their own government. If Trump wants to give America back to its rightful owners, he can start by packing up and leaving the country.
  • Posts: 15,233
    @bondjames If Trump has been playing a brilliant Machiavellian strategy all along I fail to see it. He's been committing blunder after blunder, suggested stupid policies and been unable to either reply intelligently to people's criticism or articulate any sort of argument. If money talks I hope it's speaks with more eloquence than him.
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