The Next American President Thread (2016)

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  • Posts: 1,098
    A question to our American friends here.

    Who do you really think will be the next POTUS?

    and who do you want to be President, i.e who will look after the American people best, and at the same time least likely to cause problems abroad?

    Thanks :)
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 725
    I don't like lots of things about Clinton and the Clintons methods on building their foundation suck. But, the endlessly shrill attacks on Clinton over Benghazi is stupid. We lost 7 or 8 men there. We lose more men than that in 15 minutes almost daily in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Middle East is chaotic. We lost 3,000 innocent non combatents on 9/11 in the US, and there has been more Republican Party rantings over Benghazi than Democratic Party rantings over 9/11. The proportionality about this is crazy. The general electorate doesn't give a s%#* about Benghazi.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Germanlady wrote: »
    With Clinton you get two for the price of one And Bill left the country in tip top shape.
    There is a school of thought (not popular I realize) that Clinton is the one who indirectly gave us 911 by not taking out Osama when he had the chance and had him in clear sights in Afghanistan.

    Let me quote @chrisisall here: "Crap." Clinton tried warning GWB about Bin Laden on the way out the door, Bush wouldn't listen. He got several intelligence briefings warning him about planned terrorist action inside the US, including a briefing specifically mentioning the use of hijacked airplanes...and his response was, "Okay, you've covered your ass." Any attempt to pin 9/11 on any President other than GWB is manure of the rankest degree.
    Disagree. Let me return the favour. Crap on your part.

    Clinton had a clear shot at Bin Laden and didn't take it. He didn't follow through.

    Bush certainly dropped the ball pre-911 and that is clear to anyone with some knowledge but Clinton should have finished the job when Bin Laden's whereabouts were well known. This argument about civilians is nonsense.

    They were both guilty regarding Bin Laden and regarding the financial crisis. I don't stand on partisan ground when it comes to that.

    Obama showed how it could and should have been done.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bill-clinton-i-could-have-killed-osama-bin-laden/
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 725
    mepal1 wrote: »
    A question to our American friends here.

    Who do you really think will be the next POTUS?

    and who do you want to be President, i.e who will look after the American people best, and at the same time least likely to cause problems abroad?

    Thanks :)

    I think Clinton will win if she doesn't screw up the debates and Bill shuts up. Trump's temperament is the wild card. Bill needs to be muzzled as he can be dangerous if he pops off. Her health could be an issue, I think, like Benghazi, the public doesn't give a damn about her server.

    The guys I like never run, they are too smart to put up with the destructive crap that goes with a campaign. republican Colin Powell, and democrat Ted Warner are past and present examples of men who have the management experience, brains and moderate character to make very good presidents. Neither wanted the misery of a campaign run. Some will say they have skeletons they don't want uncovered. Nope, I just think they are too smart to run. Some have wisely said that anyone who badly wants to be President in this world climate is unfit for the job.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    The American political process inherently prevents the best from running as @smitty says. The best and the brightest can't be bothered. Plus it's a very polarized political system now, so even if one wins, power is shared between the branches of power (unlike in a parliamentary system) and nobody will necessarily agree with you on issues, except if it's about bombing someone else on account of a so called homeland attack. Which is why such attacks must be prevented at all costs.
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 3,566
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Germanlady wrote: »
    With Clinton you get two for the price of one And Bill left the country in tip top shape.
    There is a school of thought (not popular I realize) that Clinton is the one who indirectly gave us 911 by not taking out Osama when he had the chance and had him in clear sights in Afghanistan.

    Let me quote @chrisisall here: "Crap." Clinton tried warning GWB about Bin Laden on the way out the door, Bush wouldn't listen. He got several intelligence briefings warning him about planned terrorist action inside the US, including a briefing specifically mentioning the use of hijacked airplanes...and his response was, "Okay, you've covered your ass." Any attempt to pin 9/11 on any President other than GWB is manure of the rankest degree.
    Disagree. Let me return the favour. Crap on your part.

    Clinton had a clear shot at Bin Laden and didn't take it. He didn't follow through.

    Bush certainly dropped the ball pre-911 and that is clear to anyone with some knowledge but Clinton should have finished the job when Bin Laden's whereabouts were well known. This argument about civilians is nonsense.

    They were both guilty regarding Bin Laden and regarding the financial crisis. I don't stand on partisan ground when it comes to that.

    Obama showed how it could and should have been done.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bill-clinton-i-could-have-killed-osama-bin-laden/

    The argument that Clinton should have taken out Bin Laden prior to 9/11 presupposes an awareness of the future on Clinton's part that no one can realistically be expected to possess. The argument about civilians being endangered is an entirely valid one. The greatest lever that terrorists have now in finding new recruits is that the US doesn't care about the collateral damage we've been inflicting on the Arab world in our (that is, Bush's) response to 9/11. What you're advocating is that Clinton should have begun that destructive process earlier. That he didn't is to his credit. Now let's cut the crap.
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 3,566
    Double posting eliminated.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Germanlady wrote: »
    With Clinton you get two for the price of one And Bill left the country in tip top shape.
    There is a school of thought (not popular I realize) that Clinton is the one who indirectly gave us 911 by not taking out Osama when he had the chance and had him in clear sights in Afghanistan.

    Let me quote @chrisisall here: "Crap." Clinton tried warning GWB about Bin Laden on the way out the door, Bush wouldn't listen. He got several intelligence briefings warning him about planned terrorist action inside the US, including a briefing specifically mentioning the use of hijacked airplanes...and his response was, "Okay, you've covered your ass." Any attempt to pin 9/11 on any President other than GWB is manure of the rankest degree.
    Disagree. Let me return the favour. Crap on your part.

    Clinton had a clear shot at Bin Laden and didn't take it. He didn't follow through.

    Bush certainly dropped the ball pre-911 and that is clear to anyone with some knowledge but Clinton should have finished the job when Bin Laden's whereabouts were well known. This argument about civilians is nonsense.

    They were both guilty regarding Bin Laden and regarding the financial crisis. I don't stand on partisan ground when it comes to that.

    Obama showed how it could and should have been done.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bill-clinton-i-could-have-killed-osama-bin-laden/

    The argument that Clinton should have taken out Bin Laden presupposes an awareness of the future on Clinton's part that no one can realistically be expected to possess. The argument about civilians being endangered is an entirely valid one. The greatest lever that terrorists have now in finding new recruits is that the US doesn't care about the collateral damage we've been inflicting on the Arab world in our (that is, Bush's) response to 9/11. What you're advocating is that Clinton should have begun that destructive process earlier. That he didn't is to his credit. Now let's cut the crap.
    Once again your argument is incoherent. The US was attacked several times under Clinton's watch, most notably during the first world trade centre attack and then during the USS Cole and Sudan embassy bombings. Bin Laden was a clear threat at that time, as was Al Qaeda. Clintont didn't have to 'level' Kandahar to get Bin Laden. He could have used intelligence and special force ops. He chose not to perhaps because he didn't want a repeat of the Carter fiasco or another Black Hawk down.

    Obama had the balls to take that chance, and he got his man. You can make excuses for Clinton all you want. The bottom line is he was as responsible for not stopping Bin Laden as Bush was.

    Only Obama had the nerve to do what had to be done. Once and for all.
  • Ah, so we've gone from you acknowledging that the idea that Clinton is just as responsible for 9/11 as Bush is "unpopular" to you at least stating that you think it is a valid point. Well, I disagree QUITE strongly...but at least you're acknowledging that your opinion is what it is.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I totally missed what you were saying there. I am stating that both Clinton and Bush are partly responsible for 911. Bush for not listening to intelligence or focusing on it during his first year in office and Clinton for not taking him out when he had the chance (despite knowing full well, as an incumbent for 8 years, that the man was a serious threat to US national security).

    Bush gets the rap for both the financial crisis and 911. They are both responsible. That's why no investigation into either matter yielded anything concrete. Both parties indirectly had a hand in it due to their incompetence. Both parties (and Hillary Clinton specifically) also had a hand in the Iraq war.

    That is my point.
  • "What I was saying there" is that you have been arguing in a disingenuous fashion. Originally you stated that"there is a school of thought" by which Clinton was as responsible as Bush for 9/11. This is in the same league as Fox News stating "SOME people think...." that the sky is magenta or the moon is made of varicolored cheeses. Now you have at least come forward to say that you also hold the opinion which you admit is an unpopular one. Now you want to claim that both Bill and Hillary are just as responsible as GWB for the war in Iraq. Until you can come up with any proof that Bill & Hillary cooked the intelligence presented the American people to justify that war -- something we all know well that the Bush administration did with gusto, lying to their own people including Colin Powell -- then I must call balderdash on your entire line of reasoning.
  • Posts: 725
    I'm pretty sure that Obama is very worried about collateral damage from bombing Isis targets. There have been two recent incidents of drones killing Doctors Without Borders workers and 60 minutes had a really sad segment last Sunday about an innocent old aid worker captive who hung on and on while his wife tried desperately to free him, only to be ultimately killed in a US drone strike. I think Obama is haunted about this kind of stuff and this impacts his bombing strategy. Israel got creamed in the world press over the collateral killings in the Gaza war. Countries that are trying to limit killing innocents in locations where terrirists deliberately operate have a no win job.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    "What I was saying there" is that you have been arguing in a disingenuous fashion. Originally you stated that"there is a school of thought" by which Clinton was as responsible as Bush for 9/11. This is in the same league as Fox News stating "SOME people think...." that the sky is magenta or the moon is made of varicolored cheeses. Now you have at least come forward to say that you also hold the opinion which you admit is an unpopular one.
    The opinion I have expressed is not the popular one is it? I never said that it was. Hence the 'there is a school of thought' comment. It's not a view shared, acknowledged or even known by the masses but is is well documented in reputed publications I read, including Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy and The Economist.

    I have yet to see a valid counterargument by anyone, including yourself, to my points. The whole point of my stating it is to let people on this thread know about this - most on this forum do not, I'm sure, since they are from all over the world. They only know that Bush was on watch when 911/the financial crisis happened and that he went into Iraq.

    Most probably have no idea about Glass Steagall and the financial deregulation of the 90's either. That's why I'm mentioning it. Sorry to offend, but facts are facts.

    Like I said, on this important matter, I don't stand on partisan ground.
    Until you can come up with any proof that Bill & Hillary cooked the intelligence presented the American people to justify that war -- something we all know well that the Bush administration did with gusto, lying to their own people including Colin Powell -- then I must call balderdash on your entire line of reasoning.
    Listen, any one with half a brain knew in 2003 that there was a rush to war. Anyone with half a brain, including most European nations except for Tony Blair (even the British people didn't buy it) knew that Iraq had nothing to do with 911 and that the investigators were being stopped from doing their job by Bush and Co. who went out of their way to denigrate the UN at this point.

    Yet, our possible future president, Mrs. Hillary Clinton, went along with the vote for war. She should not be forgiven for such bad judgement. Rather, she should be held accountable for it. That was a political calculation which has had major ramifications for the US.

    Since she last ran for office, she has been Secretary of State, and also was involved in the fiasco that is now Libya (the aftermath of that bombing campaign - which is now ISIL). Again, the public should hold her accountable for that.
  • And of course, Mr. Trump has nothing at all to be held accountable for...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Trump will have to be accountable soon enough. The easy ride he has had is about to come to an end.

    He will have to explain his past business ventures, employment of illegals, Trump university and all the rest. Those are legitimate things to demand an answer to.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    bondjames wrote: »
    Most probably have no idea about Glass Steagall
    Single biggest eff-up of the Clinton Administration.
    8-|
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 725
    Though I agree with many of your political points @bondjames, I disagree with your harping on Clintons Iraq Senate war vote. She voted along with 76 other senators, many of them were liberals, and she gave it qualified support. Her vote like the others was based on false intel about Iraq's supposed UMDs. Slate, a very liberal web site hardly friendly to her, has a recent article about that vote and the attacks she keeps getting over it. I think the article is correct. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2016/02/hillary_clinton_told_the_truth_about_her_iraq_war_vote.html
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    smitty wrote: »
    Though I agree with many of your political points @bondjames, I disagree with your harping on Clintons Iraq Senate war vote. She voted along with 76 other senators, many of them were liberals, and she gave it qualified support. Her vote like the others was based on false intel about Iraq's supposed UMDs. Slate, a very liberal web site hardly friendly to her, has a recent article about that vote and the attacks she keeps getting over it. I think it's correct. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2016/02/hillary_clinton_told_the_truth_about_her_iraq_war_vote.html
    I disagree on that point in principle @smitty. That was a very important time in America's history - a fork in the road. I really think she should be held accountable for that because many at that time (I remember it well) were quite aware that Bush and Co. were manipulating data and pushing for the war. The Powell UN presentation was perfect cover, but the smart countries around the world said unequivocally "No". The fact that 76 other senators voted with her also gave her 'political cover', and I'm sure she was aware of that.

    Keep in mind the drumbeat in 2013, that almost resulted in a full scale assault on Syria. Even Kerry was banging the drum. Only Obama stood firm (good for him - he took a hit politically but it was the right decision).

    I truly fear for what will happen post-Obama because the Military Complex is just too freaking strong in this country.

    Ghadaffi was a dangerous man, but he died in a very undignified manner. Watch this (it's the casual nature of it that disturbs me):

  • edited February 2016 Posts: 725
    Don't agree. To many very liberal senators voted with her. Colin Powell, hardly an idiot gave speeches based on the false UMD line and he was part of the administration. It's just my .02 here, but you dislike Hillary so much you are letting that color your view on this.

    I also disagree with your view on Syria. The hemoraging of Syrian immigration into Europe is vastly destabilizing to almost every country there, not to mention the hideous slaughter still occurring in the ME. Obama failed by not taking a much stronger role in putting together a Kuwait type of UN sanctioned coalition intervention. Presidents should have the vision to interrupt the march to a horribly destabilizing and terrible slaughter like this. This could lead to WW 3 in the Middle East with Iran, the west and Russia totally at odds. One can also only hold their breath over what is still to occur financially, culturally and politically with the attempt to absorb the millions of Muslims still poring into Europe. This was a big test of leadership. Obama failed.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    smitty wrote: »
    Don't agree. To many very liberal senators voted with her. Colin Powell, hardly an idiot gave speeches based on the false UMD line and he was part of the administration. It's just my .02 here, but you dislike Hillary so much you are letting that color your view on this.
    Disagree. I don't trust her and that is why I don't want her to be president. She has proven time and time again that she will put political expediency ahead of principle. Obama is different in this respect. Colin Powell I'm sure is ashamed of what he did at the UN. He, more than anyone, gave the operation credibility and I'm sure he regrets it.
    smitty wrote: »
    I also disagree with your view on Syria. The hemoraging of Syrian immigration into Europe is vastly destabilizing to almost every country there, not to mention the hideous slaughter still occurring in that region. Obama failed by not taking a much stronger role in putting together a Kuwait type of UN sanctioned intervention in Syria. Presidents should have the vision to interrupt the march to a slaughter like this. He failed.
    Disagree again. This was debated in depth on another thread. The only solution to Syria at the moment is to keep Assad in power temporarily, destroy ISIL first and then transition power slowly over a period of time (if possible). If they had gone in they would have fully destabilized the region and fueled ISIL even further because Assad would have been gone. Not only that, one would have run the risk of WW3 with Russia. Trump is correct on this situation.

    PS: There have been reports that the US was funneling weapons to the free Syrian army via Benghazi, without the American public's knowledge. Far more went on there than has been reported. I recall CNN at one point saying the CIA was actually in the embassy that night, but they don't report that any more.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/hillary-clinton-benghazi-testimony-cia-2015-10
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Help us Bernie-San Kenobi, you're our only hope....
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Obama failed by not taking a much stronger role in putting together a Kuwait type of UN sanctioned coalition intervention.

    Come on now, you're knowledgeable enough. You know this is impossible, because Russia has veto power in the UNSC. The only coalition possible would be a NATO one.
  • Posts: 613
    YOU CANT STUMP THE TRUMP
  • Posts: 1,631
    YOU CANT STUMP THE TRUMP

    Jake Tapper managed to stump him today.

    Trump's interview, where he said he didn't know enough about David Duke to distance himself from him could be the first blunder (for want of a much better term) that Trump has made that may actually stick.

    It's a shame that it's Cruz and Rubio that are his chief rivals. Three terrible candidates in the running for the GOP nomination while we have a very good candidate in John Kasich who could actually do the job he's running for. Marco Rubio, who only goes to work forty percent of the time in the Senate. If he continued that as president, he'd be only show up to work for 584 of 1,460 days of his first tenure.

  • Posts: 613
    ya I agree but its already Trump vs Hillary in my book
  • Posts: 613
    and if I really had to put my neck on the line I think Hillary takes it.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,589
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Germanlady wrote: »
    With Clinton you get two for the price of one And Bill left the country in tip top shape.
    There is a school of thought (not popular I realize) that Clinton is the one who indirectly gave us 911 by not taking out Osama when he had the chance and had him in clear sights in Afghanistan.

    Let me quote @chrisisall here: "Crap." Clinton tried warning GWB about Bin Laden on the way out the door, Bush wouldn't listen. He got several intelligence briefings warning him about planned terrorist action inside the US, including a briefing specifically mentioning the use of hijacked airplanes...and his response was, "Okay, you've covered your ass." Any attempt to pin 9/11 on any President other than GWB is manure of the rankest degree.
    Disagree. Let me return the favour. Crap on your part.

    Clinton had a clear shot at Bin Laden and didn't take it. He didn't follow through.

    Bush certainly dropped the ball pre-911 and that is clear to anyone with some knowledge but Clinton should have finished the job when Bin Laden's whereabouts were well known. This argument about civilians is nonsense.

    They were both guilty regarding Bin Laden and regarding the financial crisis. I don't stand on partisan ground when it comes to that.

    Obama showed how it could and should have been done.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bill-clinton-i-could-have-killed-osama-bin-laden/

    The argument that Clinton should have taken out Bin Laden presupposes an awareness of the future on Clinton's part that no one can realistically be expected to possess. The argument about civilians being endangered is an entirely valid one. The greatest lever that terrorists have now in finding new recruits is that the US doesn't care about the collateral damage we've been inflicting on the Arab world in our (that is, Bush's) response to 9/11. What you're advocating is that Clinton should have begun that destructive process earlier. That he didn't is to his credit. Now let's cut the crap.
    Once again your argument is incoherent. The US was attacked several times under Clinton's watch, most notably during the first world trade centre attack and then during the USS Cole and Sudan embassy bombings. Bin Laden was a clear threat at that time, as was Al Qaeda. Clintont didn't have to 'level' Kandahar to get Bin Laden. He could have used intelligence and special force ops. He chose not to perhaps because he didn't want a repeat of the Carter fiasco or another Black Hawk down.

    Obama had the balls to take that chance, and he got his man. You can make excuses for Clinton all you want. The bottom line is he was as responsible for not stopping Bin Laden as Bush was.

    Only Obama had the nerve to do what had to be done. Once and for all.

    But you are assuming that nabbing Bin laden = no more terrorist threat. Well, that certainly isn't the case.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    TripAces wrote: »
    But you are assuming that nabbing Bin laden = no more terrorist threat. Well, that certainly isn't the case.
    No, not quite. That is not my assumption. I am referring only to Bin Laden. Not the terrorist threat, which is as great as ever, again due to poorly conceived meddling in the Middle East. Obama deserves full credit for having the nerve to do what he did though. That was not an easy call to make and it could have gone horribly wrong, politically as well as operationally.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited February 2016 Posts: 4,589
    bondjames wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    But you are assuming that nabbing Bin laden = no more terrorist threat. Well, that certainly isn't the case.
    No, not quite. That is not my assumption. I am referring only to Bin Laden. Not the terrorist threat, which is as great as ever, again due to poorly conceived meddling in the Middle East. Obama deserves full credit for having the nerve to do what he did though. That was not an easy call to make and it could have gone horribly wrong, politically as well as operationally.

    But you are making the case that by not getting Bin Laden earlier, Clinton is partially responsible for 9/11. This is a stretch. It is likely that 9/11 (or something like it, maybe something worse) occurs anyway.

    If anything, it's the lax airport security measures (and the hubris of "nothing will happen here") that allowed it to happen.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    TripAces wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    But you are assuming that nabbing Bin laden = no more terrorist threat. Well, that certainly isn't the case.
    No, not quite. That is not my assumption. I am referring only to Bin Laden. Not the terrorist threat, which is as great as ever, again due to poorly conceived meddling in the Middle East. Obama deserves full credit for having the nerve to do what he did though. That was not an easy call to make and it could have gone horribly wrong, politically as well as operationally.

    But you are making the case that by not getting Bin Laden earlier, Clinton is partially responsible for 9/11. This is a stretch. It is likely that 9/11 (or something like it, maybe something worse) occurs anyway.
    Of course, that is always possible. That is why one must be extremely vigilant when it comes to terrorism. Leave no stone unturned. This is an asymmetric threat. They don't play by Queensberry rules. That is why I'm open to drone strikes, within reason, and as long as due care is exercised.

    Bottom line is the man should have been taken out much earlier than he was. I stand by that comment and opinion.

    A poster suggested earlier that Hillary means a two for one and that Bill had left the place in tip top shape. That is an oversimplification, and I am just correcting the record. He did not get Bin Laden (even though he had the opportunity to do so) who was responsible for the worst terrorist attack on US soil shortly thereafter, and he deregulated the financial system, allowing all kinds of risky loans and betting, which led eventually to the financial collapse.
This discussion has been closed.