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When I said technocrat I was not referring to myself. I am anything but that. I was referring to technical administrators who are purely solution oriented. That is the type they brought in when Italy and Greece were in crisis mode after kicking the can down the road for too long, and at some point America will need that too if it goes along like this for much longer.
I was not being 'full of ourselves' at all. What I meant was that this thread has been a source of incessant negativity and vitriol. It's unhealthy and not conducive to proper discussion. That mirrors the political debate in America. There isn't one. There's just continued ill feelings expressed in negative and hyperbolic ways (dangerous, fear etc.etc.). When one frames any choice as a 'moral' choice (which is how it has been smartly framed by one party and its surrogates) then it leads to inevitable problems and misunderstandings.
I have never said that Trump was perfect. He is far from it. However, I don't see him as dangerous. He is a verbal provocateur who has an excellent grasp of the large issues facing the country which have been ignored by both parties for too long. He brings them to the forefront. That is a skill. It's for the legislators and legal types to debate and address the issue appropriately.
Of the two candidates on the ballot, I still prefer him. I'm not ashamed to say that. This doesn't mean I idolize him or that I think he's a messiah...just that I have more faith that he will be able to get some hard choices made and some big changes pushed through for the country. I am able to see the campaign rhetoric and how it has influenced people. I don't let it influence me. On either side. You've not seen me going on about Hillary's health or name calling her have you?
I would have been happy with Sanders although I prefer Trump. I would have been happiest with Biden.
What I find most deplorable is the way people get ridiculed and called all sorts of names if they want to vote for Trump. The way the media is treating voters is dangerous.
This is a democratic process. Trump got the ticket. This didn't accidentally happen.
Furthermore people should think before shouting. Ted Cruz, that would have been the most dangerous President ever. By far. And without Trump he probably would now run against Hillary. I can't believe how naiv some people are in thinking Trump would be dangerous in the White House. He is a showman. He would arrive in political reality very fast if he got elected and not be any different than his predecessors were.
Armed Trump supporters outside of a Clinton campaign office. Not dangerous at all. No, not in the slightest.
Actually, I too would have been happiest with Biden at the top of the ticket. I voted for Bernie in the primary. And just as I promised in this thread many months ago, I'll be happy to vote for "whoever receives the Democratic nomination" -- that is, Hillary -- as the next President of the USA. I also think Cruz would have made a deplorable candidate had he gotten the Republican nomination -- but he probably wouldn't have torn the party apart the way Trump has. I just hope Trump can reign in the fools that he's been stoking up for a "Second Amendment Solution" to the problem of a second Clinton presidency...
I wish he'd try that, actually, then follow them all over.
I am assuming that everybody here respects that we (U.S. voters) have the right to vote for the candidate we choose. When we are genuinely appalled by a candidate, we are going to speak up (both sides). Free speech is a cornerstone of America. As tempting as it is to post funny pictures, gifs, etc. of either candidate (the world is awash with these from both sides of the political spectrum) ... I don't find them really helpful, nor a valuable part of an ongoing discussion if the discussion is trying to be more civilized/polite. Sure some are hilarious; I freely admit that. I would just prefer they stay on Facebook and twitter - again, I'm just giving you my own personal feelings today. And I am not talking about any particular poster here. I am thinking about this thread as it has evolved and where we are now. Just in general; please keep that in mind.
So, regarding Trump: In my opinion, yes, I believe Trump would be dangerous as president of the United States. I do not say that lightly. Even though the others working in our federal government would do their utmost to check and balance him, I believe (to put it in the most neutral of terms) he would be harmful for our country and possibly the world. I do not see how he could truly lead. I do not see how he could measure up to be effective in any positive way. Even if the rest of the federal government could ensure nothing horrifically disastrous gets put into law, Trump would only be a straw man at best. His ideas are so repellent, how could other countries respect America? Sure, Cruz has evil ideas, too (he does) - but the viable candidates we have are Trump and Clinton. One of them will be elected president.
But aside from that aspect of whether Trump would be dangerous, I want to say that I think it would be a grievous mistake for the American people to elect him. Again, for me personally, there are many reasons for my decision. One early one is his outright bigotry and demeaning of other races, ethic groups, religions, the disabled, and women. I am lumping that together as one thing. That is only one factor - his bigotry/belittling- but it is certainly a strong one. I have plenty of other reasons also for my decision, but no need to go into details.
We are all aware of the main news about both candidates. We all have access to plenty of sources to read information from; a variety of kinds of sources. I respect that others may disagree with me in part or in full. No worries about me. I am not gnashing my teeth trying to persuade anyone at this point. I am living in hope that reason and tolerance of others will prevail.
So we can all voice an opinion here (especially American citizens who have a stake in this). We do not live under a dictatorship. I am not afraid that people will come after me with poison or baseball bats because they disagree with me politically. Sad to say, it is easy for me to say that ... and my one abiding concern now is that there will be violence during the actual election day and its aftermath. But we shall see. I fervently hope nothing fatal. I do expect some violence, though. That is more than sad.
I can honestly say it would be more than embarrassing to me, as an American, if Trump were elected president. It would be shameful.
So go ahead, step on my words, say whatever you'd like. All presidents are puppets? Every president is a straw man anyway? All politicians are crooked? The system needs to be overthrown? The election is rigged already? Go ahead, say what you believe. I won't dismiss your right to speak your mind; not at all. But please remember I am addressing this to everyone, not any particular member here. I have the right to say what I feel; and though, for the most part, I am trying to post info and links without voicing my opinion continually, I did want to speak up now as we head into the final stretch ... and the campaign stays firmly mired in the gutter.
What @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, you don't fancy a Trump future where you can grab women by their pussys now that they know their place?
@chrisisall, I can't say that I do. I'm a consensual man, myself.
A progressive then. Fine. May we live in a Star Trek future!
Very well said.
I would only disagree slightly with your last point. I do think that Trump would ultimately be dangerous in the White House. Perhaps not to the level that some of the hyperbole out there would suggest, but I think there would always be an uneasiness there when the man who has possession of the nuclear codes can be easily baited into 3am Twitter tantrums.
I also think that he would stand a pretty good chance of further dividing the country along the fractured lines we've already seen, namely the political and the racial lines that we see so much division on these days. I'd have a hard time believing that, after his continued rants against the various ethnic and racial groups he's insulted that he'd be able to bring the country together on an issue such as police violence.
But, as I said, I only slightly disagree. I do think that you're absolutely correct in saying that he'd meet up with the usual checks and balances that Congress and the Supreme Court provide and those would negate a lot of his more outrageous proposals.
Still, that doesn't mean that my view on him has changed any. He's still unfit for the office and he won't be getting my vote.
No ones choices, beliefs and decisions are above scrutiny and criticism.
I respect people's right to support Trump. I don't respect them for doing it. Not at all.
I am so sorry for being passionate again...
I think that would be too much to hope for.
So you are already comparing Trump to Hitler. Well done. Just proves my point.
Well, during the Reagn years the GOP was indeed the party with that vision of the 'Shining City Upon A Hill'. That vision is now totally taken over by the Democratic Party yes. They are the ones with the positive, hopeful message, whereas the GOP preaches doom and gloom.
Well, I agree with you. With it the 'moral outrage' as well. That used to be reversed as well. The DNC is now much more the positive, moralistic party as opposed to the GOP.
Do you think it's a bad thing that the Democratic base is now seen as the.....'moral compass' on many issues @BondJames? Sorry for misreading by the way. But I do think it's not just the base, but also the party itself that shows the 'moral outrage'. I think you made an interesting point (because we disagree heavily on my previous post and what you say about Trump. Better a base showing 'moral outrage', then full-blown hatred). But on this one you make an interesting point.
America has always been a progressive nation and one that pushes forward and breaks down boundaries and barriers. What it represents today may have been considered outrageous in the past and it's on account of its forward looking nature that walls have come down. Having said that, it's been guilty of filthy crimes in the past that other countries are not guilty of (slavery etc.). Disgraceful.
We just look at things differently, that's all. It doesn't mean I am morally inferior to your or vice versa. When one puts a 'moral' code on things it skews one's opinion psychologically. It's a fascinating weapon to employ in a campaign, no matter which side does it.
But when one supports a candidate that's openly firing up hate and divisiveness by the use of words, then I think some people are entitled to say what's moralistic or not, to at least have a morale. The meaning of 'morale' still is "emotional or mental condition with respect to cheerfulness, confidence, zeal, etc., especially in the face of opposition, hardship,". What's wrong with that? You make it sound negative by saying 'the Democrats are guilty of it now'
Lastly you yourself start marking the Democratic base this way. Implying that Democratic voters think of themselves as 'better' or more 'moralistic' than Trump-supporters is a bit too black-and-white: