The Next American President Thread (2016)

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  • Posts: 1,631
    One thing Trump and I do agree on: SNL should close its doors.

    I'd have to agree as well. Baldwin's debut as Trump was hilarious, but since then both he and SNL have been very poor in covering the election, the above clip being the low point of their election coverage thus far.

    All the show had going for it in the last decade-plus was that it did a great job of satirizing our presidential elections. Now that they can't even do that right, I don't see much point in tuning in to the show at all. NBC will probably never cancel it, but it's window of relevance has closed and it exists purely for nostalgia at this point.

  • Matt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Never be ashamed of who you vote for.? Why not. There must have been a little nagging sense of shame in many elderly Germans who voted for hitler.

    No ones choices, beliefs and decisions are above scrutiny and criticism.

    So you are already comparing Trump to Hitler. Well done. Just proves my point.
    That comparison has been going around for some time @BondJasonBond006. You must have missed that. Yes, it does prove your point indeed.

    If you both think that's what I'm saying then unfortunately my friends you have very little subtlety and nuance in your thinking and ability to understand the most basic concepts of argument and debate.

    I'm not directly comparing Trump to Hitler. I'm undermining your argument that there is no need to feel guilt for your actions, using a more extreme example. It's the sort of thing I would expect anyone to be able to grasp.

    There is no subtle and nuanced way to have Hitler and Trump in the same sentence and not aiming at the obvious.

    There's no subtle and nuanced way to discuss Trump at all. It's like approaching a rhino with feather duster. Just get your shotgun & blast away before Hillary confiscates all the shotguns...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,830
    Matt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Never be ashamed of who you vote for.? Why not. There must have been a little nagging sense of shame in many elderly Germans who voted for hitler.

    No ones choices, beliefs and decisions are above scrutiny and criticism.

    So you are already comparing Trump to Hitler. Well done. Just proves my point.
    That comparison has been going around for some time @BondJasonBond006. You must have missed that. Yes, it does prove your point indeed.

    If you both think that's what I'm saying then unfortunately my friends you have very little subtlety and nuance in your thinking and ability to understand the most basic concepts of argument and debate.

    I'm not directly comparing Trump to Hitler. I'm undermining your argument that there is no need to feel guilt for your actions, using a more extreme example. It's the sort of thing I would expect anyone to be able to grasp.

    There is no subtle and nuanced way to have Hitler and Trump in the same sentence and not aiming at the obvious.

    There's no subtle and nuanced way to discuss Trump at all. It's like approaching a rhino with feather duster. Just get your shotgun & blast away before Hillary confiscates all the shotguns...

    =))
  • Posts: 1,314
    But please tell me you understand the basic concept I am trying to argue which is a statement like "don't feel ashamed of your actions" is a complete abrogation of responsibility.

    Just so happens Hitler is the most extreme example of disastrous consequences following a democratic election. Kind of handy to have these examples to hand when discussing potential political election of extreme candidates.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Yes, I understand you @Matt007. Ultimately I just disagree on the characterization, that's all.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    He is open. She isn't. He shows us his character flaws openly. She hides them. He gives the other side ammunition. She doesn't.
    bondjames wrote: »
    There is campaign rhetoric and there is what one is capable of doing in office, and you know that I'm sure. Trump knows that too. He is selling toughness on the campaign trail, that's all. It's his brand. He's marketing in a way he knows how to with minimum funds against a multi-million $ campaign from the other side. He's using a different technique to get his message across (bombastic talk). I can see what he's doing. I don't take it literally. I can also see how his statements are being framed. I don't take that literally either.

    Are you contradicting yourself? Very well then, you are contradicting yourself, you are vast, you contain multitudes.

    Paraphrasing Walt Whitman though I may be, you can't have it both ways, @bondjames. Either Trump is showing us his true self, or he isn't. Either we take his campaign statements as honest indications of what he'd try to do as President, or they aren't. If they are indeed open indications of his character then he's reprehensible and you try to defend him at your own (dare I say moral?) peril. If it's all just a ploy to get his message across without spending millions of $$$ on advertising then maybe he should go ahead & spend the money. For a while there he was raising all kinds of $$$ until he went into the serious melt-down mode he's in now. He's not going to be able to keep the $$$, campaign law forbids that sort of behavior. Of course, the law has never been an obstacle to The Donald before, why should it be so now?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    There is campaign bombast (marketing, which he's learnt from his previous career) and there are specific policy proposals. He's a different kind of candidate, that's all. His approach to messaging is different, since he came from the entertainment and branding industry - not the political class. He's made several mistakes along the way, but for a first time candidate for the highest office, he has been remarkably astute. Just not astute enough. I can try to explain further but it's really not worth the effort at this stage.

    When I was referring to his openness, I was referring to his character, warts and all. He doesn't hide his true self. She does, like Gore did. She's just as bad as he is or worse in my view, but she's just better at hiding it.

    I wouldn't worry about it. As I said before, he'll start his new tv channel, new third party or be back to running Trump Organization soon enough.

    Be careful what you wish for, because you're about to get it.
  • Posts: 1,314
    bondjames wrote: »
    Yes, I understand you @Matt007. Ultimately I just disagree on the characterization, that's all.

    Not sure either candidate is particularly likeable. Surely going to be an interesting last few weeks that's for sure. Feels like we're living in strange times at the moment with one thing and another.
  • Thanks for the warning. Somehow, I think the USA will survive Clinton II, I don't think even the Republican Party will be able to survive Trump I and only.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Matt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Yes, I understand you @Matt007. Ultimately I just disagree on the characterization, that's all.

    Not sure either candidate is particularly likeable. Surely going to be an interesting last few weeks that's for sure. Feels like we're living in strange times at the moment with one thing and another.
    We've been in strange times since 'hanging chads' imho. First there was 2000, then 2001 (911), then 2008 (financial crisis), and now this. No shortage of excitement.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Trump acting arrogant, braggadocious and piggish on that bus is who he is, so no, I wouldn't say he shows his "true self" at all. That true self is what he's hiding in an effort to retain his ever fleeing support.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I wonder where the line would be drawn in the USA.

    Someone like Trump OR Hillary would have long been forced to step down from the race in probably every European Country.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    He has always acted arrogant, braggadocious and piggish. That's part of his brand.
  • Posts: 1,631
    I wonder where the line would be drawn in the USA.

    Someone like Trump OR Hillary would have long been forced to step down from the race in probably every European Country.

    I'm not sure there is a line. Politics are a heightened form of reality TV, which America is absolutely addicted to. I think they'd have to catch a candidate on film actually committing a crime (not simply talking about committing one, as what happened with Trump) for any supposed line to be crossed.

    I just hope that the 2020 election is a hardline reaction against this election. I hope that both the bases of the Republican and Democratic parties are so disgusted with what has happened this time around that when the time comes for them to put forward their next nominee (one will do so in 2020, the other in 2024), that we get candidates that can actually inspire people and run idea-driven campaigns, rather than just trash their opponent and engage in races to see who can get to the gutter first.

    Then again, we know that won't happen.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    He has always acted arrogant, braggadocious and piggish. That's part of his brand.

    So how much of that from him do you not take literally, and how much do you take to be the real Trump? You say he doesn't hide who he is, but a person's brand is seldom who they are, so which is it?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    He has always acted arrogant, braggadocious and piggish. That's part of his brand.

    So how much of that from him do you not take literally, and how much do you take to be the real Trump? You say he doesn't hide who he is, but a person's brand is seldom who they are, so which is it?
    His 'entertainment' brand (as opposed to his business brand) is an exaggerated element of who he is. He's essentially been in the entertainment business for the past 15 or so years.

    As I mentioned months back on this thread, he is from the WWE school of marketing. Take an element of your personality that people see (even if it's not truly who you are) and blow it up for emphasis. I posted this a few months back but am doing so again here. Listen from 10:30 onwards to 11:45

  • edited October 2016 Posts: 3,566
    bondjames wrote: »
    His 'entertainment' brand (as opposed to his business brand) is an exaggerated element of who he is. He's essentially been in the entertainment business for the past 15 or so years.

    As I mentioned months back on this thread, he is from the WWE school of marketing. Take an element of your personality that people see (even if it's not truly who you are) and blow it up for emphasis.

    Was Trump marketing himself to the American electorate as an entertainer, then? I don't think so. He was marketing himself as a businessman...only he could fix the mess that is our tax system, and our rotten business deals with China. If he was trying to market a businessman using an entertainer's promotional model, then that was a fundamental error on Trump's part. Perhaps his first, but certainly not his last.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    His 'entertainment' brand (as opposed to his business brand) is an exaggerated element of who he is. He's essentially been in the entertainment business for the past 15 or so years.

    As I mentioned months back on this thread, he is from the WWE school of marketing. Take an element of your personality that people see (even if it's not truly who you are) and blow it up for emphasis.

    Was Trump marketing himself to the American electorate as an entertainer, then? I don't think so. He was marketing himself as a businessman...only he could fix the mess that is our tax system, and our rotten business deals with China. If he was trying to market a businessman using an entertainer's promotional model, then that was a fundamental error on Trump's part. Perhaps his first, but certainly not his last.
    Of course not. However he was using marketing techniques learnt through his entertainment career which work. Namely amplifying arguments and points with bombastic statements which cut trough the clutter in order to be heard. That is a function of the media markets that exist and which thrive on sensationalism. One almost has to operate in that manner. It's what they live off.

    Some of us understood the gist of his remarks. Others took offence, because they were looking at his comments literally. As I said months back on this thread, his border wall and ban from various countries were security measures which would be clarified, and not religious or racial tests. That has been clear to me from the start.

    Ultimately, he fought this campaign the only way he could. He was laughed off the stage from the very start and yet confounded the odds by playing to the microphone and doing what he knew best. As I said earlier, he's made several mistakes along the way, but so does every candidate, and that's why they become so scripted and secretive as they stay in the political world. They also improve with each campaign. Keep in mind that he is a first time candidate for the highest office, and has done a remarkable job to get this far. I continue to respect his ability to communicate freely and openly, while amplifying important issues. He cannot be taken literally while campaigning, but if you listen to what he says and dial it back to reality, he is often not wrong.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    You admire Sexual Predators?

    Outside of his experience and your opinion on his expertise, this is a seriously flawed human being, can you see how some of us have problem grasping your support of him?

    I'm actually shocked at your relaxed attitude to such a man.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    @Shardlake, it's probably best if you just look at me as an irredeemable deplorable. You can add uneducated to that. I will never be able to convince you.

    For the record, in case anyone cares, I don't condone any sexually predatory behaviour at all. If it occurred, the perpetrator (no matter who he/she is) should be incarcerated.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    bondjames wrote: »
    Some of us understood the gist of his remarks. Others took offence, because they were looking at his comments literally. As I said months back on this thread, his border wall and ban from various countries were security measures which would be clarified, and not religious or racial tests. That has been clear to me from the start.

    Funny, I thought he was "open" and "honest". Where I come from, you can take open and honest people at their word.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Sanders has left the Democratic Party.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Some of us understood the gist of his remarks. Others took offence, because they were looking at his comments literally. As I said months back on this thread, his border wall and ban from various countries were security measures which would be clarified, and not religious or racial tests. That has been clear to me from the start.

    Funny, I thought he was "open" and "honest". Where I come from, you can take open and honest people at their word.
    Indeed. You should. Vote your conscience, as Ted Cruz so eloquently put it. Just be happy.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,011
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, agreed. SNL hasn't been funny in a long time.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, agreed. SNL hasn't been funny in a long time.

    Hmmm, funny, because I found it hilariously funny :D.

  • Sanders has left the Democratic Party.

    Sanders was not a member of the Democratic Party. Can't leave a place that you never were...
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    But still he ran on a Democratic ticket? How does that work?
  • Posts: 315
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Shardlake, it's probably best if you just look at me as an irredeemable deplorable. You can add uneducated to that. I will never be able to convince you.

    This is news to ONLY you.

    17n6hv.jpg

  • Posts: 11,119
    But still he ran on a Democratic ticket? How does that work?

    Same question for me. It seems that both Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump tried to become succesful within the Democratic and Republican Party frame. But isn't it more......logical that both Trump and Sanders start their own...party? I mean, look what Trump is doing now to the GOP. The Republican Party is basically rotting away from the inside out thanks to Trump. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump this time will start a new political party.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It is strange. You must register to vote, but not to run.
This discussion has been closed.