The Next American President Thread (2016)

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Comments

  • bondjames wrote: »
    Germanlady wrote: »
    Yes, it has become moving in cirles. But on the other hand, things will happen and this is an outlet for feelings and opinions. We don't have to agree, but folks can let it out2. Nothing wrong with that. Who doesn't care to comment anymore, can step aside and concentrate on other threats.
    I absolutely agree. I've never been a fan of censorship and shutting down discussion, no matter what the matter is. We have similar protests on the Bond Production thread as well and I disagree there too. If someone is not happy with the discussion, just go to another thread and please yourself there.

    If you truly believe that, then this might be of interest:
    Pence Now Arguing for Email Secrecy
    Indianapolis Star: “Now that the presidential campaign and most of the furor over Hillary Clinton’s email scandal are behind us, the Pence administration is going to court to argue for its own brand of email secrecy. The administration is fighting to conceal the contents of an email sent to Gov. Mike Pence by a political ally. That email is being sought by a prominent Democratic labor lawyer who says he wants to expose waste in the Republican administration.
    But legal experts fear the stakes may be much higher than mere politics because the decision could remove a judicial branch check on executive power and limit a citizen’s right to know what the government is doing and how it spends taxpayer dollars."

    In short, protest all censorship then (Although I do disagree that locking a topic with the right arguments isn't about censorship).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Germanlady wrote: »
    Yes, it has become moving in cirles. But on the other hand, things will happen and this is an outlet for feelings and opinions. We don't have to agree, but folks can let it out2. Nothing wrong with that. Who doesn't care to comment anymore, can step aside and concentrate on other threats.
    I absolutely agree. I've never been a fan of censorship and shutting down discussion, no matter what the matter is. We have similar protests on the Bond Production thread as well and I disagree there too. If someone is not happy with the discussion, just go to another thread and please yourself there.

    If you truly believe that, then this might be of interest:
    Pence Now Arguing for Email Secrecy
    Indianapolis Star: “Now that the presidential campaign and most of the furor over Hillary Clinton’s email scandal are behind us, the Pence administration is going to court to argue for its own brand of email secrecy. The administration is fighting to conceal the contents of an email sent to Gov. Mike Pence by a political ally. That email is being sought by a prominent Democratic labor lawyer who says he wants to expose waste in the Republican administration.
    But legal experts fear the stakes may be much higher than mere politics because the decision could remove a judicial branch check on executive power and limit a citizen’s right to know what the government is doing and how it spends taxpayer dollars."

    In short, protest all censorship then (Although I do disagree that locking a topic with the right arguments isn't about censorship).
    Who are you to determine what is a right and wrong argument? Any argument is a valid one, as long as it is debated and discussed without insult and vitriol. That is the essence of open discussion. I have no control over what Pence does. I do have a say (albeit a limited one) on this thread and on this forum, and it affects me personally when threads which I am participating in get locked because someone doesn't like the direction that the discussion is heading. That is where I will protest, as is my right.

  • bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Germanlady wrote: »
    Yes, it has become moving in cirles. But on the other hand, things will happen and this is an outlet for feelings and opinions. We don't have to agree, but folks can let it out2. Nothing wrong with that. Who doesn't care to comment anymore, can step aside and concentrate on other threats.
    I absolutely agree. I've never been a fan of censorship and shutting down discussion, no matter what the matter is. We have similar protests on the Bond Production thread as well and I disagree there too. If someone is not happy with the discussion, just go to another thread and please yourself there.

    If you truly believe that, then this might be of interest:
    Pence Now Arguing for Email Secrecy
    Indianapolis Star: “Now that the presidential campaign and most of the furor over Hillary Clinton’s email scandal are behind us, the Pence administration is going to court to argue for its own brand of email secrecy. The administration is fighting to conceal the contents of an email sent to Gov. Mike Pence by a political ally. That email is being sought by a prominent Democratic labor lawyer who says he wants to expose waste in the Republican administration.
    But legal experts fear the stakes may be much higher than mere politics because the decision could remove a judicial branch check on executive power and limit a citizen’s right to know what the government is doing and how it spends taxpayer dollars."

    In short, protest all censorship then (Although I do disagree that locking a topic with the right arguments isn't about censorship).
    Who are you to determine what is a right and wrong argument? Any argument is a valid one, as long as it is debated and discussed without insult and vitriol. That is the essence of open discussion. I have no control over what Pence does. I do have a say (albeit a limited one) on this thread and on this forum, and it affects me personally when threads which I am participating in get locked because someone doesn't like the direction that the discussion is heading. That is where I will protest, as is my right.

    I think you don't get my argument. I just hoped.....sincerely hoped that this news related to Mike Pence and his ideas regarding censorship might open a fruitful discussion about the very issue of censorship.

    Instead, you imply that I want to close stuff that doesn't suit my views. That has nothing to do with it really. The thing is......there's almost no real contents in here anymore. It's just a bucketload of populist verbal wars in here. And when I do post something about political contents and policy, it's ignored for the sake of posting tweets with no illustration or explanation, or youtube videos. Polarization in here has increased tremendously I think. And in a polarized environment, fruitful discussions are usually absent.

    Moreover, if this topic stays open, I don't mind either.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Germanlady wrote: »
    Yes, it has become moving in cirles. But on the other hand, things will happen and this is an outlet for feelings and opinions. We don't have to agree, but folks can let it out2. Nothing wrong with that. Who doesn't care to comment anymore, can step aside and concentrate on other threats.
    I absolutely agree. I've never been a fan of censorship and shutting down discussion, no matter what the matter is. We have similar protests on the Bond Production thread as well and I disagree there too. If someone is not happy with the discussion, just go to another thread and please yourself there.

    If you truly believe that, then this might be of interest:
    Pence Now Arguing for Email Secrecy
    Indianapolis Star: “Now that the presidential campaign and most of the furor over Hillary Clinton’s email scandal are behind us, the Pence administration is going to court to argue for its own brand of email secrecy. The administration is fighting to conceal the contents of an email sent to Gov. Mike Pence by a political ally. That email is being sought by a prominent Democratic labor lawyer who says he wants to expose waste in the Republican administration.
    But legal experts fear the stakes may be much higher than mere politics because the decision could remove a judicial branch check on executive power and limit a citizen’s right to know what the government is doing and how it spends taxpayer dollars."

    In short, protest all censorship then (Although I do disagree that locking a topic with the right arguments isn't about censorship).
    Who are you to determine what is a right and wrong argument? Any argument is a valid one, as long as it is debated and discussed without insult and vitriol. That is the essence of open discussion. I have no control over what Pence does. I do have a say (albeit a limited one) on this thread and on this forum, and it affects me personally when threads which I am participating in get locked because someone doesn't like the direction that the discussion is heading. That is where I will protest, as is my right.

    I think you don't get my argument. I just hoped.....sincerely hoped that this news related to Mike Pence and his ideas regarding censorship might open a fruitful discussion about the very issue of censorship.

    Instead, you imply that I want to close stuff that doesn't suit my views. That has nothing to do with it really. The thing is......there's almost no real contents in here anymore. It's just a bucketload of populist verbal wars in here. And when I do post something about political contents and policy, it's ignored for the sake of posting tweets with no illustration or explanation, or youtube videos. Polarization in here has increased tremendously I think. And in a polarized environment, fruitful discussions are usually absent.

    Moreover, if this topic stays open, I don't mind either.
    While I agree that there is no real policy discussion in here at the moment, there never really was either. This entire thread has been about opinions and political biases. So nothing has changed really. If it remains a place for people to express their opinions (and that's all any of us bring really) on the American electoral process, then I don't see what the problem is.

    For the record, I am against all censorship, unless it is of a personal/family nature, if it will impact an important executive decision prior to it being made (after the fact decisions are fine by me - which is why I had no problems with the wikileaks revelations), or if it is a matter of national security in the sense that it will compromise the lives of American citizens either at home or abroad.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    It could be debated if politics should at all be allowed in a James Bond forum.
    Could I choose I would say no.
    This and some other threads have really disrupted the insular little fun world we had discussing, arguing Bond. Sometimes with heated arguments, yes. But always about Bond.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,399
    It could be debated if politics should at all be allowed in a James Bond forum.
    Could I choose I would say no.
    This and some other threads have really disrupted the insular little fun world we had discussing, arguing Bond. Sometimes with heated arguments, yes. But always about Bond.

    Agreed.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not a violent man, but I'm secretly hoping that some citizen does the world a favour, exercises his or her second amendment right, and dispatches these inexcusable miscreants to the afterlife. What a waste of valuable earthly resources they are.

    Now now, @bondjames, surely you're smarter than to want some gun owning coo-coo to maw people down. That man should never have been attacked and those people need to spend some time playing mommy and daddy with a Mexican wrestler in a maximum security prison. But if we're going to insist on just executing people left and right, we're no better than ISIS decapitating people who aren't too fond of their silly beliefs. No matter what Trump has said during his campaign, we must at all times preserve law and order if we intend to remain civilised. Those anti-Trump protesters who committed to violence and aggression are no better than the very thing they were protesting against and therefore have to be severely punished. But I for one do NOT want to see some retard with a gun dropping them like sitting ducks. Violence begets violence, and before you know it, the streets of America can get very hot.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2016 Posts: 23,883
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not a violent man, but I'm secretly hoping that some citizen does the world a favour, exercises his or her second amendment right, and dispatches these inexcusable miscreants to the afterlife. What a waste of valuable earthly resources they are.

    Now now, @bondjames, surely you're smarter than to want some gun owning coo-coo to maw people down. That man should never have been attacked and those people need to spend some time playing mommy and daddy with a Mexican wrestler in a maximum security prison. But if we're going to insist on just executing people left and right, we're no better than ISIS decapitating people who aren't too fond of their silly beliefs. No matter what Trump has said during his campaign, we must at all times preserve law and order if we intend to remain civilised. Those anti-Trump protesters who committed to violence and aggression are no better than the very thing they were protesting against and therefore have to be severely punished. But I for one do NOT want to see some retard with a gun dropping them like sitting ducks. Violence begets violence, and before you know it, the streets of America can get very hot.
    @DarthDimi, that goes without saying, doesn't it?

    If I'm not mistaken, Chicago (where this attack took place) does have a concealed firearm law, and folks can carry weapons. Moreover, the law generally states that someone who is attacked should retreat if possible and use reasonable force where possible. Having said that, there is also a 'Stand Your Ground' doctrine applicable in certain states (I'm not sure about illinois), and in these cases, one does not have a duty to retreat (in essence, it extends the 'Castle Doctrine' outside the home).

    I think it's presumptous to assume that someone who is being attacked like the man in the video was would be a 'retard' for shooting in self defense, as you seem to suggest. Perhaps you misunderstood my earlier statement, which I was making in reference to being viciously attacked like that, and then I can understand your comments. I'm not advocating for vigilantes taking the law into their own hands.

    Leaving the politics out of it, if they were to do that to someone else in the future, and the victim chose to use a concealed weapon to defend himself, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. He'd be doing the world a favour as far as I'm concerned.
  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not a violent man, but I'm secretly hoping that some citizen does the world a favour, exercises his or her second amendment right, and dispatches these inexcusable miscreants to the afterlife. What a waste of valuable earthly resources they are.

    Now now, @bondjames, surely you're smarter than to want some gun owning coo-coo to maw people down. That man should never have been attacked and those people need to spend some time playing mommy and daddy with a Mexican wrestler in a maximum security prison. But if we're going to insist on just executing people left and right, we're no better than ISIS decapitating people who aren't too fond of their silly beliefs. No matter what Trump has said during his campaign, we must at all times preserve law and order if we intend to remain civilised. Those anti-Trump protesters who committed to violence and aggression are no better than the very thing they were protesting against and therefore have to be severely punished. But I for one do NOT want to see some retard with a gun dropping them like sitting ducks. Violence begets violence, and before you know it, the streets of America can get very hot.

    Gone is the nuanced @BondJames :-(. The man I disagreed with on too many occasions, but who at least had the guts to speak out in an articulated way. But ever since Trump got elected...........polarization and divisiveness has become more apparent. And with it also a more scary kind of support for the next president-elect. I just don't see well-meant 'open arms' and necessary 'reaching out for positive unity' from Trump (so far).

    @BondJames? You know what I said when Obama got elected in 2008?
    "I understand that so many people are disappointed in the loss for McCain. But we need all of you, Republicans and Democrats to work together in making the USA a better nation".

    Nothing of that so far from Trump. And sadly, it's very much absent with you as well.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited November 2016 Posts: 9,020
    People should stop being so touchy.

    @bondjames I get your post, to be honest, after seing the clips I had the same thought and I can admit that without losing any sleep.

    The moral high ground. Something which certainly is associated to the Democrats (or other center-left political parties around the world) easily these days.

    I said this before, Hillary using the term "deplorables" may have lost her the Presidency. Sure, there were many factors that made Trump win the election, but that one may have been a deciding one.

    Arrogance, ignorance and treat people condescendingly. That's what lost them, the Democrats, the election.

    One should think, they would learn. But no, they search excuses elsewhere.
    The latest craze is to blame Facebook and Zuckerberg. That's what I call deplorable.

    And no, I am not a fan of Trump. And no, I am not a fan of FB, even if I use it for limited purposes.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,399
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not a violent man, but I'm secretly hoping that some citizen does the world a favour, exercises his or her second amendment right, and dispatches these inexcusable miscreants to the afterlife. What a waste of valuable earthly resources they are.

    Now now, @bondjames, surely you're smarter than to want some gun owning coo-coo to maw people down. That man should never have been attacked and those people need to spend some time playing mommy and daddy with a Mexican wrestler in a maximum security prison. But if we're going to insist on just executing people left and right, we're no better than ISIS decapitating people who aren't too fond of their silly beliefs. No matter what Trump has said during his campaign, we must at all times preserve law and order if we intend to remain civilised. Those anti-Trump protesters who committed to violence and aggression are no better than the very thing they were protesting against and therefore have to be severely punished. But I for one do NOT want to see some retard with a gun dropping them like sitting ducks. Violence begets violence, and before you know it, the streets of America can get very hot.

    Gone is the nuanced @BondJames :-(. The man I disagreed with on too many occasions, but who at least had the guts to speak out in an articulated way. But ever since Trump got elected...........polarization and divisiveness has become more apparent. And with it also a more scary kind of support for the next president-elect. I just don't see well-meant 'open arms' and necessary 'reaching out for positive unity' from Trump (so far).

    @BondJames? You know what I said when Obama got elected in 2008?
    "I understand that so many people are disappointed in the loss for McCain. But we need all of you, Republicans and Democrats to work together in making the USA a better nation".

    Nothing of that so far from Trump. And sadly, it's very much absent with you as well.

    Trump has called for unity several times. It's the protesters that won't hear the call. We're still waiting on them to accept the democratic decision of the people. As soon as they can do that, order can be restored.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    @BondJasonBond006, I'm touchy about this because in my 20's I witnessed a similar attack in Toronto. The victim went into a coma and I don't know if he ever recovered. That man is truly lucky to be alive and that attack was completely unforgivable, malicious, ignorant and potentially life threatening.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    bondjames wrote: »
    @BondJasonBond006, I'm touchy about this because in my 20's I witnessed a similar attack in Toronto. The victim went into a coma and I don't know if he ever recovered. That man is truly lucky to be alive and that attack was completely unforgivable, malicious, ignorant and potentially life threatening.

    I didn't mean you with that statement (touchy) :) just speaking generally about the participants in this thread. Sorry should have made that clearer.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    No, I understand @BondJasonBond006. I didn't think you were referring to me. I was just explaining why I would lose no sleep if someone who is attacked like that choses to defend themselves with a weapon (whether it be a gun or knife doesn't matter to me). They may not survive if they just retreat while an attacker pursues them, as these people did.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    @bondjames, there may indeed be some misunderstanding, as I never thought you meant the victim to be the one using a gun in self-defence. I thought you meant for some random bystander to pull out the gun powder. My mistake. ;-)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2016 Posts: 23,883
    No worries @DarthDimi. I was not clear in my earlier statement and for that I apologize. I definitely do not condone Magnum Force or Death Wish vigilantes taking the law into their own hands. Given the gun laws and racial tensions in the US, that would be a recipe for disaster.
  • Posts: 6,601
    I feel, its rarther worrying when Gustav and co argue, that this thread has to be closed, because too many people (in their mind) agree oncertain topics, Trump is bringing up.

    Gustav, as for NOT reacting to posted links or written opinion - I have that all the time, as people normally don't react to the stuff I post or write and try to react with an intelligent discussion but instead do their best to ridicule me or piss on my parade.
    Grow up, such is life. Don't let that bother you. have your say and be done with it.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited November 2016 Posts: 8,399
    Germanlady wrote: »
    I feel, its rarther worrying when Gustav and co argue, that this thread has to be closed, because too many people (in their mind) agree oncertain topics, Trump is bringing up.

    Gustav, as for NOT reacting to posted links or written opinion - I have that all the time, as people normally don't react to the stuff I post or write and try to react with an intelligent discussion but instead do their best to ridicule me or piss on my parade.
    Grow up, such is life. Don't let that bother you. have your say and be done with it.

    Well said GL. =D>
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Germanlady wrote: »
    I suppose, everybody has heard this already and it doesn't matter, whether or not he means everything, whether or not, he is ALLOWED to do so - all that matters is - every word IS TRUE! It desn't even matter, whether or not YOU believe it. What matters is - its out there now. Clear and strong, spoken without fear for all to hear. Its time, people start thinking about it and they will.

    http://quer-denken.tv/eine-rede-von-trump-mit-deutschen-untertiteln/
    That's a good speech @Germanlady, even if obviously slanted towards populism. He's definitely correct about the media and that should have been clear to everyone during this election. The problem is corporate ownership of media and the concentration in too few hands. They don't even try to be objective any more. I'll throw google search into that as well.

    I don't believe Obama and many other politicians are inherently bad people. I just think that they are beholden. That is the major problem. The system that gets them elected makes them obliged to their donors. It's part of the culture - one of entitlement and graft. Obama, to his credit, was also an outsider of sorts. However, he wasn't as forceful a personality as Trump nor was he willing to ruffle feathers as much. He proved his mettle (with Bibi, and again during the Syrian fiasco of 2013), but he also faced tremendous hostility due to his colour and perhaps because of his youth. I continue to believe that he made a big mistake ramming through Obamacare in his first term. The economy was still on shaky ground then, and he lost a lot of support due to his desire to follow through on that early partisan campaign promise, when he should have focused more on the impacts of the unexpected but catastrophic financial crisis. Overall, I think his economic stewardship has been terrible, although he didn't receive support from Congress for a lot of his plans. The Federal Reserve has basically propped the world economy up for 9 years but has in turn created serious imbalances, most notably in rising income disparities and dangerously over inflated asset prices.

    Trump is a wrecking ball. Tough as nails. He's already proven that during this campaign. I expect him to be uncompromising in focusing on the economy and jobs which is his primary interest. The deficit is likely to blow up in the near term, but the growth rate will finally accelerate if he gets tax reform, and share prices and bond yields suggest that the financial markets feel that way as well.

    He is as close to an 'independent' in the White House as we're likely to get for quite some time. A man likely to support Democratic choices as much as Republican ones depending on the scenario. A true political outsider beholden to nobody because he fought nearly everyone on the way there. The only one he really owes anything to is the voter.

    I look forward to some interesting cabinet appointments and hope that he can reach across the aisle for some important posts. People will say what they want to say, but I am positive and look forward to this administration being bold and combative where needed and doing what it must to boost the American economy.
  • edited November 2016 Posts: 4,622



    original.jpg

    Whose the blonde on Trump's right. I 100% support her appointment to whatever she has been appointed to.
    :x
    If she is a new first family daughter, and I am too lazy too look it up, I hope she attends lots of public events. Tres photogenic!
    If she is a minor perchance, my comments are purely plutonic. O:-)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Bad timmer! BAD! :))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Okay, there is one thing I dislike more than the opinion that Trump will be a better POTUS than Hill, and that's the opinion that Dalton was not a GREAT Bond (he was equal to, if very different from Connery IMO!).
    So if we choose to fight here, let's fight over BOND opinions and leave the political s**t to the world outside. We've beat this particular horse to a pulp, and if anyone wants to open a new specific political DISCUSSION thread (not the Wrestlemania this has become since the election results) they can.
    For now, I formally ask this thread be closed. It has outlived it's original purpose.

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Sorry to disappoint you Chris, but I'm not keen on Dalton anymore. :))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Murdock wrote: »
    Sorry to disappoint you Chris, but I'm not keen on Dalton anymore. :))
    Been noticing that on other threads. As long as Kirk is your favourite starship Captain, it all evens out for me.
    I like all of the Bond actors, but only Shatner is Kirk.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Sorry to disappoint you Chris, but I'm not keen on Dalton anymore. :))
    Been noticing that on other threads. As long as Kirk is your favourite starship Captain, it all evens out for me.
    I like all of the Bond actors, but only Shatner is Kirk.

    Oh yes, Kirk is the best all the way. Nobody can top Shatner, not even Pine though I do like him. ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2016 Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Okay, there is one thing I dislike more than the opinion that Trump will be a better POTUS than Hill, and that's the opinion that Dalton was not a GREAT Bond (he was equal to, if very different from Connery IMO!).
    So if we choose to fight here, let's fight over BOND opinions and leave the political s**t to the world outside. We've beat this particular horse to a pulp, and if anyone wants to open a new specific political DISCUSSION thread (not the Wrestlemania this has become since the election results) they can.
    For now, I formally ask this thread be closed. It has outlived it's original purpose.
    Did you change the title again? Why? If the mods want another thread open to carry this on they can, but it seems redundant to do that. There's lots of interesting things to discuss as the Trump administration takes shape. I thought you changed the title a weeks ago, as per below.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chris, I expect another thread under a different name would likely attract the same people before long. Rename this one if you like.
    Okay.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    bondjames wrote: »
    Did you change the title again? Why?
    I gave it the original title plus the year for archival purposes.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Murdock wrote: »
    Oh yes, Kirk is the best all the way. Nobody can top Shatner, not even Pine though I do like him. ;)
    Pine did great, especially near the end of Star Trek (2009) & all of Beyond IMO.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Did you change the title again? Why?
    I gave it the original title plus the year for archival purposes.
    Ok, if they want to close it we can start a general American Political Discussion thread to continue this interesting conversation forward. It's up to them of course.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    bondjames wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Did you change the title again? Why?
    I gave it the original title plus the year for archival purposes.
    Ok, if they want to close it we can start a general American Political Discussion thread to continue this interesting conversation forward. It's up to them of course.
    Do so if you (or anyone else) wish(es); this thread was over at the election point. It just kept gasping on.
    b-(
This discussion has been closed.