The Next American President Thread (2016)

13738404243198

Comments

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Personally, I am not highly disappointed with Obama for leadership. I still rate him as quite a good president, in that area also. He has been stymied tons, but I don't think he showed a big lack of leadership; I don't see that at all.
    Anyone who says he hasn't been the best President in quite a while probably also denies climate change.
    :))
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2016 Posts: 23,883
    My original comments were not about strong leadership in the sense of steamrollering through. Rather, it was about having the political skills to navigate Congress and getting things done in a harmonious way. That's why I said "skills at managing the political elements of Washington DC." That's a form of strength and leadership, but it's a mature one. Politics is a skill to be mastered, whether in the workplace or in government. Some are excellent at it naturally, but generally it takes practice and experience. It's quite different from populism.

    It's easy to throw the "Hitler" card around, but it was entirely irrelevant to the point I was making, which is strength through political leadership & forging consensus.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    bondjames wrote: »
    having the political skills to navigate Congress and getting things done in a harmonious way
    I love it when you go all Utopian. ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    having the political skills to navigate Congress and getting things done in a harmonious way
    I love it when you go all Utopian. ;)
    It's not Utopian. It's just that we don't have that kind of leadership any more, either in Congress or in the Presidency. It's a lost art.
  • edited May 2016 Posts: 11,119
    This article basically nullifies this entire topic:
    http://forward.com/opinion/world/341412/from-donald-trump-to-israel-and-europe-why-this-lurch-to-the-right/

    It doesn't matter a shit what president we choose........the western world, from the USA to Europe, is tightly gridlocked with ultra right wing (and left wing) populism. The reason is simple: All our certainties we have build up after WW II are not sustainable anymore. They are a by-product of capitalism and neo-liberalism. And a society that is all about growth, growth and nothing more than growth....will evidently soon destroy itself. That process is happening right now.

    I already call the post 9/11 period 'Interbellum 2.0', as a reference to the Interbellum from 1918 until 1940. But trust me, it's a nastier, slower, smarter, meaner and creepier version than the first Interbellum.

    Our Western World, from the USA to Europa, is in an unstoppable downwards spirale. And everyone who thinks that Marine LePen, Donald Trump, Viktor Orban or Geert Wilders is giving you one hell of a solution in a 4-year period.....is simply deluded and dumb.

    Am I now supporting Hillary Clinton? No, by no means. No president, right-wing, centrist, progressive, liberal, or left-wing, can give you a solution. In Brazil and Venezuela the countries are in shambles. Not only because of bad leadership, but also because the globalized world has become way way more complex than 20 years ago. But, Russia, Turkey and Hungary are in shambles too, and they are led by right-wing populist.

    My conclusion: Stop whining, stop defending your favourite presidential candidate. Our western world is falling down like the Roman Empire before us. We have to accept that better....and perhaps point our fingers to ourselves first...to execute self-criticism foremost. Because WE were part of the problem too.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    We need to work to improve things in many ways, and change the system, yes. We need to speak up. Not be complacent. Question and push those in authority. Take a more active stance. VOTE. But I don't feel the end as portrayed above is inevitable. No.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2016 Posts: 23,883
    This is just the end game of unbridled capitalism gone out of control. Survival of the fittest and Economic Darwinism taken to the 'nth' and final degree. It was and is predictable.

    A rebalancing is long overdue. It can either come cleanly from the top down (preferable but it never happens due to vested interests), or via an internal revolution/war. It looks increasingly like it will be the latter, most probably within the next 10 to 20 yrs.
  • Seven_Point_Six_FiveSeven_Point_Six_Five Southern California
    Posts: 1,257
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Yes, that's my point. He has the young generation. He doesn't have the Latinos or African Americans, nor does he have all those middle aged and older voters who are die hard Clintonites. Are they going to go with him, or decide to go with Trump to keep their current jobs & get new ones. That's the key.

    The 'he's risky - be afraid' argument goes out the window if it's Bernie vs. Trump. They are then both risky. Take your pick.
    Clinton is full stop corrupt.
    Trump is a brainless clown.
    Sanders is the only real choice.

    Bernie still doesn't have my vote but I will say it is a sad state of affairs when Trump and Clinton are considered more viable candidates than Sanders.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    bondjames wrote: »
    It looks increasingly like it will be the latter, most probably within the next 10 to 20 yrs.
    Coincidence that climate change will be in full swing drowning lower lying coastal cities about then?
    :-?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2016 Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    It looks increasingly like it will be the latter, most probably within the next 10 to 20 yrs.
    Coincidence that climate change will be in full swing drowning lower lying coastal cities about then? :-?
    A natural rebalancing then? That does tend to happen from time to time throughout history I've noticed, no joke, and it's weird. A guiding hand and all that jazz...
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    chrisisall wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    And acting like an idiot in the process.
    Please explain? I don't see it...

    @chrisisall

    His selfishness, basically.

    1. Staying in the race, when it is mathematically impossible for him to win the nomination.
    2. Continuing to ask for donations, knowing full well he can't win.
    3. Attacking the rules of the party when he has never belonged to the party until now.
    4. Criticizing HRC and therefore creating a rising tide against her, within the democratic party at a time where another four years of a Dem in the white house should have been a slam dunk.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    TripAces wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    And acting like an idiot in the process.
    Please explain? I don't see it...

    @chrisisall

    His selfishness, basically.

    1. Staying in the race, when it is mathematically impossible for him to win the nomination.
    2. Continuing to ask for donations, knowing full well he can't win.
    3. Attacking the rules of the party when he has never belonged to the party until now.
    4. Criticizing HRC and therefore creating a rising tide against her, within the democratic party at a time where another four years of a Dem in the white house should have been a slam dunk.

    I shall pass you a tissue then, for your tears.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I don't understand that point. This is a contact sport. The greatest and toughest competition of them all. It is not an anointment, although one candidate still in this race perhaps thought it might be at the outset, as she did 8 yrs ago.

    At the end of the day we are talking about a 74 yr old candidate who has limited backing from the party apparatus. If she can't put him away, then I'm afraid the problem lies with her and not him. He has every right to continue until the last vote is counted in the last state that can vote. It is only at that point, if he doesn't win (and he won't) that he should turn around and throw his support for her. That would be the honest and proper thing to do, and I commend him for insisting on doing that.

    I don't see anything wrong with what he's doing.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    bondjames wrote: »
    It is not an anointment, although one candidate still in this race perhaps thought it might be at the outset, as she did 8 yrs ago.

    Ha ha! Biggest LOL of the day! =))
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited June 2016 Posts: 4,585
    chrisisall wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    And acting like an idiot in the process.
    Please explain? I don't see it...

    @chrisisall

    His selfishness, basically.

    1. Staying in the race, when it is mathematically impossible for him to win the nomination.
    2. Continuing to ask for donations, knowing full well he can't win.
    3. Attacking the rules of the party when he has never belonged to the party until now.
    4. Criticizing HRC and therefore creating a rising tide against her, within the democratic party at a time where another four years of a Dem in the white house should have been a slam dunk.

    I shall pass you a tissue then, for your tears.

    Who said I'm crying? I'm backing the winner...as are most Democrats.

    @bondjames: She did put him away. She put him away a long time ago. Problem is, Sanders and his minions don't understand the math (which is why they all think they get a free ride to college) and he's basically going on and on, unchallenged, selling his snake oil. The only reason Sanders is "gaining traction" is because HRC has left the stage...and for good reason. Had the race been still been up in the air over the past month, HRC would have been shoving back and making sanders look like the numbskull that he is, which is basically what happened so early in the race.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited June 2016 Posts: 17,801
    TripAces wrote: »
    @bondjames: She did put him away. She put him away a long time ago. Problem is, Sanders and his minions don't understand the math (which is why they all think they get a free ride to college) and he's basically going on and on, unchallenged, selling his snake oil. The only reason Sanders is "gaining traction" is because HRC has left the stage...and for good reason. Had the race been still been up in the air over the past month, HRC would have been shoving back and making sanders look like the numbskull that he is, which is basically what happened so early in the race.
    Friends don't let friends post drunk.
    :P
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    chrisisall wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    @bondjames: She did put him away. She put him away a long time ago. Problem is, Sanders and his minions don't understand the math (which is why they all think they get a free ride to college) and he's basically going on and on, unchallenged, selling his snake oil. The only reason Sanders is "gaining traction" is because HRC has left the stage...and for good reason. Had the race been still been up in the air over the past month, HRC would have been shoving back and making sanders look like the numbskull that he is, which is basically what happened so early in the race.
    Friends don't let friends post drunk.
    :P

    He isn't credible, wasn't credible, will never be credible...

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-2016-213560
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    TripAces wrote: »
    @bondjames: She did put him away. She put him away a long time ago. Problem is, Sanders and his minions don't understand the math (which is why they all think they get a free ride to college) and he's basically going on and on, unchallenged, selling his snake oil. The only reason Sanders is "gaining traction" is because HRC has left the stage...and for good reason. Had the race been still been up in the air over the past month, HRC would have been shoving back and making sanders look like the numbskull that he is, which is basically what happened so early in the race.
    @TripAces, I realize that he has mathematically been eliminated (if one counts the superdelegates). However, I also realize that he has formed a 'movement'. An important one, and one which only he seems to be able to control, energize and lead (for the moment). One that doesn't seem to trust Hillary either.

    I assume he wants to stay in it until the end in order to make them feel like their vote counted, and to ensure that he has maximum leverage at the convention for his voter constituency, which is quite formidable.

    While it may be inconvenient for now, in the long run this may be the best approach for Democrats, because I think they will need him to turn those voters out for Hillary in the general election.

    He probably doesn't trust her to give him that pulpit (or a sufficient one) if he drops out before California, given how the DNC has treated him to date. Can anyone blame him?

    At least he is being true to his constituency, which is honourable. Where can they go without him?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    TripAces wrote: »
    He isn't credible, wasn't credible, will never be credible...

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-2016-213560
    Dude, turn on a fan or something.
    #-o
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Sanders is not credible. Nice guy perhaps, but his ideas are not credible, true. At this point not a credible candidate. You need to take your rose colored glasses off, @chrisisall. And have another drink. ;)
    You must be flying solo tonight and not with friends who would let you post dr.....
  • Posts: 11,119
    Just read my previous post instead of slamming people for their choice of new president.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Living over here all I can say is .......
    I for one welcome, the forward thinking of our new Overlord.
    Whichever one you guys choose. ;)
  • Posts: 11,119
    Living over here all I can say is .......
    I for one welcome, the forward thinking of our new Overlord.
    Whichever one you guys choose. ;)

    I have no idea what you are talking about :-P.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266

    As a European you should know better then to draw the Hitler- or 1930-ies card that easily. Above all you complain about right- and leftwing extremists, but then proceed only in doom thinking without solution. If I didn't know better I'd think you were part of an end-of-the-world cult (and doing exactly the same as those you critisize).

    Yes, the systems we have in place are faulty, as have all the systems we've had up 'till now. You want to know what living in the Weimar really was about? We're not even getting close to that in Europe. We're living in the best times ever, when it comes to life expectation and personal wealth.

    The Americans indeed have a problem. They somehow started to believe in a mideaval system, but I take it that's all part of the learning process. The fact that Bernie Sanders gained such a following (hardly far left if you see his ideas, just normal social democrat to our standards) is part of this process. As is that toupee of a Drumpf. As @4Ever stated, it IS important to have ideals and to vote! How else has change ever been put through? By whining? hardly!

    So, before you start another gloom and doom post, please DO learn from history, instead throwing in a Godwin which makes all your argumentation validless.

    All in all I hope Hilly will take Bernie as VP. But that perhaps is a bridge too far (if we're referencing to WWII :-P )
  • Posts: 11,119

    As a European you should know better then to draw the Hitler- or 1930-ies card that easily. Above all you complain about right- and leftwing extremists, but then proceed only in doom thinking without solution. If I didn't know better I'd think you were part of an end-of-the-world cult (and doing exactly the same as those you critisize).

    Yes, the systems we have in place are faulty, as have all the systems we've had up 'till now. You want to know what living in the Weimar really was about? We're not even getting close to that in Europe. We're living in the best times ever, when it comes to life expectation and personal wealth.

    The Americans indeed have a problem. They somehow started to believe in a mideaval system, but I take it that's all part of the learning process. The fact that Bernie Sanders gained such a following (hardly far left if you see his ideas, just normal social democrat to our standards) is part of this process. As is that toupee of a Drumpf. As @4Ever stated, it IS important to have ideals and to vote! How else has change ever been put through? By whining? hardly!

    So, before you start another gloom and doom post, please DO learn from history, instead throwing in a Godwin which makes all your argumentation validless.

    All in all I hope Hilly will take Bernie as VP. But that perhaps is a bridge too far (if we're referencing to WWII :-P )

    From a historical perspective, as you can read in the article, it is entirely valid to draw comparisons with Hitler. Entirely! But drawing comparisons does not necessarily mean Trump will become the next Hitler. That's bullocks off course.

    I think the reason that so many people get agitated with the Hitler-comparisons, is because they feel offended that these comparisons are made in the first place. But a true, objective historian, doesn't give a fuck about that. Put your emotions aside.....and learn valuable lessons from certain comparisons, like those with Hitler, the Weimarer Republic and the Interbellum.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2016 Posts: 15,718
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    ''For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law.''
  • Posts: 11,119
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    ''For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law.''

    Yes, and it's disagreeable.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266

    As a European you should know better then to draw the Hitler- or 1930-ies card that easily. Above all you complain about right- and leftwing extremists, but then proceed only in doom thinking without solution. If I didn't know better I'd think you were part of an end-of-the-world cult (and doing exactly the same as those you critisize).

    Yes, the systems we have in place are faulty, as have all the systems we've had up 'till now. You want to know what living in the Weimar really was about? We're not even getting close to that in Europe. We're living in the best times ever, when it comes to life expectation and personal wealth.

    The Americans indeed have a problem. They somehow started to believe in a mideaval system, but I take it that's all part of the learning process. The fact that Bernie Sanders gained such a following (hardly far left if you see his ideas, just normal social democrat to our standards) is part of this process. As is that toupee of a Drumpf. As @4Ever stated, it IS important to have ideals and to vote! How else has change ever been put through? By whining? hardly!

    So, before you start another gloom and doom post, please DO learn from history, instead throwing in a Godwin which makes all your argumentation validless.

    All in all I hope Hilly will take Bernie as VP. But that perhaps is a bridge too far (if we're referencing to WWII :-P )

    From a historical perspective, as you can read in the article, it is entirely valid to draw comparisons with Hitler. Entirely! But drawing comparisons does not necessarily mean Trump will become the next Hitler. That's bullocks off course.

    I think the reason that so many people get agitated with the Hitler-comparisons, is because they feel offended that these comparisons are made in the first place. But a true, objective historian, doesn't give a fuck about that. Put your emotions aside.....and learn valuable lessons from certain comparisons, like those with Hitler, the Weimarer Republic and the Interbellum.

    As it so happens I AM a historian, University of Amsterdam, degree in 2007. So I have been one for some time now. I'm not the one coming up with the emotional stuff, you are. And yes, the NY Times may be read worldwide, but they're journalists and know squat all of what historically really went down. Yes, there are comparisons you can make, as you can make them also with the crisis just after wallstreets collapse in the eighties, or the oil crisis in the seventies, so we're up to WW V bij now? Come on! Godwin's law is absolutely justified. There's no argument. Just because there is/was a economic/political crisis it doesn't mean we can go a different way in a peaceful manner. It doesn't mean that disgruntled people end up NAZI's.

    And next time, please leave the historical comparisons to those who know what they're talking about. Historians.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I agree with you @CommanderRoss. I don't like such simplistic comparisons, which tend to be used to strike fear and to inject emotional energy into a discussion when there's nothing left to say.

    I'm similarly sick of the "Neville Chamberlain" arguments that are always used by Republicans to justify going to war whenever they don't like a foreign leader.

    I have no problem with intelligent discussion and points of view, but such overly simplified observations are as impressive as an emoticon imho, which is to say, not impressive at all.
This discussion has been closed.