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Comments
->Brexit - answered above
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->Trump - answered throughout this 56 page thread. I don't admire his oratory and I've actually already told you that so I don't see why I should repeat myself. His campaign rhetoric is offensive and undignified. His being a media personality is not a concern of mine.
In terms of my personal views, I agree on the wall, I am not happy that there are over 10m undocumented illegals in the US, I agree on tighter immigration rules for people coming from war zones, I agree that mass refugee immigration in particular must be contained, I agree that Saudi Arabia and other kingdoms should do more to 'put up' refugees in the Middle East rather than letting them come to Europe, I agree that trade agreements have to be revisited - particularly with respect to worker protection and job exporting, I agree that China is manipulating its currency and controlling its markets in a way that advantages them and disadvantages the West and this must be looked at, I agree that American companies which export jobs overseas must face a compensating penalty, I agree that ISIL/Daesh must be fought more vigorously (at home and abroad) and more smartly and I agree that The US has no business trying to overthrow the Assad regime in Syria because it will further destabilize an already shaky region.
Now, do I agree with all of his prescriptions for solving these issues? No. However, I appreciate that he has brought these important issues to the table for discussion and that if he is president, they will be discussed and a policy will be implemented via Congress that incorporates some of the proposals and ideas that he has suggested. As I have said before, his approach is to put the issues out there at their extreme level and then negotiate them back to a more palatable level. He is not an ideologue. The Muslim ban is already being clarified and made more palatable, as I said it would. His argument was never a religious or racist one (although his simplistic way of expressing himself led to that conclusion for some in the lazy media), it was a security one, and that is something I agree with.
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->Immigrant crisis - I have said nothing about individual countries being able to solve this alone. I don't know where you get this idea from. I have said that countries must be more careful about immigration (including of refugees) and I agree with British voters who chose Brexit in part because of their disappointment with the governments inability to curtail immigrants coming to work from Eastern Europe in particular.
I have no problem with a coordinated approach among EU nations to the immigrant crisis, but I do not agree with Merkel's approach to bringing in refugees. Not at this time in the EU's current economic state.
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->Democracy - I do agree with direct democracy via referendums on various issues (like they do in Switzerland) and I also agree with elections every four to five years. Both are necessary in my view and both should be welcome. It's not a binary choice. I believe that one should always consult the electorate on matters of national importance however. Brexit shows that the path that was being taken was not shared by the majority of voters.
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->EU - my issue with the EU is that there is no tenable way forward for the countries within it except for further integration (political, monetary and fiscal) and consequently a further loss of sovereignty and decision making capability at a national level. If they don't do further integration, then it my view it will inevitably disintegrate or alternatively will 'muddle along' as it has done for a number of years and fall behind the rest of the world.
Ultimately, I would have preferred if it had remained a 'trade zone' like the North American Free Trade Pact and not a politico-economic union with single currency, as it has become.
It is a flawed construct as it currently stands, and it must either move towards further integration (which the Brits have just rejected) or risk collapse.
I'm sorry @bondjames but I think you must be seeing a different Donald Trump to the rest of us, the media doesn't have to twist anything we only need to see the footage of what the man says to know he's uneducated, offensive and totally incapable of being the leader of your country.
You seem like an intelligent person and you might be playing devils advocate but the evidence is clear, Trump should never have even got off first base let alone be the GOP's nominee for the next POTUS.
It doesn't say much for your country that he's got as far as he has, I'd be deeply ashamed of my country if Nigel Farage was in the same position here and he's just Trump lite in comparrison.
At best, I would say he's someone who views people of the middle and lower classes as being decidedly inferior to himself, which I think can manifest itself as perceived racism. Of course he loves the women and minorities that he hangs out with on a daily basis, because they're all like him to a certain degree. But when it comes to ordinary folks, it's a different story, from telling the crowd that a Black Lives Matter protester maybe "should have been roughed up", to his comments on women, his mocking of a disabled reporter, and so on, there's plenty out there to support the claims of racism, sexism, and so on that his detractors have made.
That's the thing. He isn't a direct racist himself. But his offensive, unnuanced, violent, generalizing and still rather xenophobic rhetoric DOES facilitate a society that is much more prone to racist tendencies. And THAT is something I hate about all this. And let's be clear now, it is Trump who facilitates this.
Hillary Clinton may be a divisive figure too, but she at least doesn't shamefully assign all Mexicans and all Muslims as the cause of divisiveness in USA society.
@SpectreNumberTwo, I don't share your sentiments that Trump is essentially for all intents and purposes an anti-christ (as can be gleaned from your emoji at the end). He's got a lot of work to do to show he is capable of sitting in the highest chair, but for a man who wasn't in politics 12 months ago, he has proven to be formidable and has brought up excellent points about the US political and economic system that require investigating and changing.
He has been communicating in his rallies at Grade 6/Year 6 level, and that is unacceptable going forward. If he can't improve his approach and demonstrate that he can hold conversations (and debates) at a high level with a firm detail grasp of the issues at hand (he will have plenty of opportunity with 3 debates and numerous interviews going forward) then he will be soundly trounced come November. This election is his to lose.
Perhaps you should ask yourself why the media has made such a story out of It.
Donald Trump is an unusual man. And whatever you say about the media, Trump said all these things. And in a democracy such things will be scrutinized. That's how media works.
You know, I kind of understand your remark. But for the very same reason Hillary Clinton is now extensively scrutinized by the media. And deservedly so. But are you now going to say that Clinton doesn't deserve to be scrutinized like this? No.
Everyone will be scrutinized to death once there's something wrong with your candidacy. That's how media works, that's how journalism works, that's how a free democracy works.
So in the end I think it's totally fair how media treats both Trump and Clinton. They did some bad things, and that backfires. So please do not defend only Trump now and 'forget' about how the media is treating Clinton.
However, by going on and on about this Trump racist story, they have indirectly stoked the flames themselves, much more than he has, and probably have contributed to violence since.
I think first of all this discussion isn't as black and white like you say. Secondly, I want to say that I am very happy you articulated all my points. I like to be wrong on certain issues. And I admit it. That's called self-criticism, and that should happen more in such fierce debates.
Now back to what you say about Trump. I think it's not entirely fair how you talk about the media.
Look, to my own ethical standards, there's something ethically and morally wrong if you say these kind things, if you utter such divisive quotes. And the following quotes are all from Donald Trump:
In all honesty @BondJames, I do expected a tiny bit more...nuance in your choice of words this time. Even IF Donald Trump isn't a racist, his language is very offensive, totally inappropriate, completely reckless and ethically and morally wrong. Very wrong.
So, I am completely baffled that you say that there should be much more valid criticisms that should be directed at him. WHAT valid criticism do you want to hear or see?? Do these quotes themselves say enough?? But do you want media to be...quiet about it? Like it happens in countries with less freedom of press?
You know, if you say these kind of things, you foremost create anger and divisiveness. That's the very nature of bullying. And I tell you, I have been bullied a lot as a kid, and it hurt me a lot. To such an extend that I have severe mental and professional problems in my life. So that's when a leading figure, a teacher, stands up and tries to get red of this bullying, by addressing the destructiveness of it all and by firmly saying that whoever continues bullying this way, should be punished.
That's how society should work. And that's how it should work in every sane free democracy where we have certain moral and ethical standards. So the 'punishment' Donald Trump is facing from the media in my opinion is entirely valid.
And even if Donald Trump wants to address the problems he stands for, he at least should use more nuanced words, a more measured approach, in which he doesn't facilitate the worst things of human kind: Divisiveness, fear, hate.....and at times racism. Because Donald Trump may not be a racist at heart. I agree with you on that. But he surely facilitates it. And staying silent on it or saying that we should point 'other' criticism at him, is perhaps the worst thing we can do.
I have never said that Trump's words aren't offensive. They are, and unnecessarily so. What I am saying is that the media have stoked the flames and perhaps have indirectly contributed to violence by making more out of a lot of the comments than they should have (that's a fact).
I have said I am disgusted by some of his remarks, but that isn't the determining factor for me with him. We have had 8 years of a 'nuanced' president and we are where we are, in the world and with American race relations.
Make no mistake, I do not think the man is a messiah (unlike the current incumbent who was known as the chosen one). He is deeply flawed. However, he has brought far more problems to our attention than his competitor, who cannot even make a controversial remark because she is so beholden and stage managed.
By the way:
Well, we now know who Trump is screwing. Perhaps this is the first openly gay presidentil ticket :-P.
Intelligence and education have no correlation whatsoever to being a RACIST. What orifice did you pull that gem out of. It really is laughable. Here are a few quotes on the black race from someone that most Americans regard as highly intelligent:
There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races ... A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together.
I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.
Is this person a racist because he believes that blacks are inferior to whites, should be separated and never be equal? Yup. And by the way, this person is Abraham Lincoln the 16th President of the U.S..
We'll see if you're a man of your word and cease and desist or do what you always do--hit the wall with more s**t. I'm betting you can't help yourself.
http://www.vox.com/2016/7/15/12204176/turkey-coup-trump-response
I realize some would prefer if I joined in the derisive commentary towards him, but I'm afraid I won't do that. I've already commented on what I see as his problems, and also what I think he has contributed to this election cycle in terms of bringing issues to the fore, which I hope he can do more of for the next four months (whether he wins or not).
PS: My initial response to your left leaning diatribe a few pages back was entirely facetious, in case you didn't catch that.
Donald certainly has the market cornered on that. ;)
Trump is a dispicable human being that exploits people who some how think he's the answer to their problems but then again the south are huge republican voters not reaslising that GOP policies are screwing them royally.
They tap into the idea of blaming minorities for everything and the uneducated racists buy it wholesale.
The argument that Trump says what he says because it relates to his base makes him even worse because he's never going to help these people because he's part of the establishment that he claims he's rallying against.
Trump is a racist, a bigot and a sexist and this is plain for all to see, either that or he's playing a game because it gains his popularity amongst a certain base and if that is the case he's much much worse, what ever way you slice it, he's very very dangerous.
I expected a few ignorant people to fall for what was being played up six months or so ago (the methods were clear) but I'm surprised you're one of them.
The Black Lives Matters folks who were making trouble at that rally during the primaries are now being called out for inciting violence and possibly encouraging what happened to the police officers in Dallas.
Then as I said if he isn't he's much worse, exploiting racists for your own benefit is just plain evil.
If you justify his reasoning I have to wonder what kind of person you are, you are clutching at straws.
Saying what he says and stirring up things like he does is not healthy. He has no expericence of Government, I don't even think he actually wants the job, he'll be like Boris Johnson the day after when Brexit won, he'll looked scared shitless because he realise he'll have to make right on what he's said when he has no clue at all.
Say what you want about British politics but even the most inept politicians here have more clue about governing than Drumpf.
Why, yes you did.
@Shardlake, Trump is not a racist. Of that I am quite certain. He is educated.
Stop yourself.
Hidden behind that however, are some good points about the state of affairs of the nation & matters that must be discussed, and that is what I'm focusing on, not the rest of it, which is a sideshow to me.
No, I am not being facetious in this response. He is not racist, from my knowledge of his career over the years. Far from it. He is campaigning in a way that is playing to the lowest common denominator and I've already said I wish he wouldn't have done that during the primaries (perhaps because he really has no connection to the right wing in terms of social views - the man is more liberal than he lets on and that is the real joke here given he is the Repub nom.). I hope he'll take a different approach during the upcoming campaign, now that he is the presumptive nominee and show the nation who he is.
*chrisisall has LEFT the building*
Of course "I have all the best words" not my phrase his.
I suppose to relate to his base he needs to speak like this is that it?
What about that time he pretended to be his own publicist when it was plain as day it was him, you've had one President with alzheimers do you want another one?
Like I say if he is the best actor in the world and is actually this incisive, witty extremely intelligent business man then I think he might have become a little to immersed in this character he's supposedly playing.