The Next American President Thread (2016)

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  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,451
    dalton wrote: »
    What does the race of the man have to do with anything, in this instance? The guy happened to be non-white, therefore racism? Are we to assume Trump wouldn't have praised his supporters were the guy white?

    Trump's response: “It would be a shame. . . . I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate.”

    That sounds to me more like a politician trying to change topic, again a common tactic. I can't see the racism there, accept for those committing the attacks. This is a very reaching 'guilt by association' type charge.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,825
    It baffles me how you continue to defend Islam and in the same post go on to mention civil liberties and the LGBT community.

    Three words that describe your understanding of, well, most everything I would assume. =))
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 1,631
    dalton wrote: »
    What does the race of the man have to do with anything, in this instance? The guy happened to be non-white, therefore racism? Are we to assume Trump wouldn't have praised his supporters were the guy white?

    Trump's response: “It would be a shame. . . . I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate.”

    That sounds to me more like a politician trying to change topic, again a common tactic. I can't see the racism there, accept for those committing the attacks. This is a very reaching 'guilt by association' type charge.

    A politician with any backbone would have immediately condemned the attack and not offered his "supporters" any semblance of cover for their actions. It doesn't take any intellect whatsoever to see what happened and immediately condemn it. Just like it shouldn't have taken Trump several hours to disavow his KKK and white supremacists endorsements.

    It's not "reaching" for guilt at all. It's a simple case of listening to what Trump says and realizing that it's heavily laced with a good dose of racism.

    But, what do I know. I'm just a confused, naive "libertarian".
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,588
    Given that the U.S.'s network has been hacked time and again, explain why HRC using a personal server is an issue? ;)
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,451
    dalton wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    What does the race of the man have to do with anything, in this instance? The guy happened to be non-white, therefore racism? Are we to assume Trump wouldn't have praised his supporters were the guy white?

    Trump's response: “It would be a shame. . . . I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate.”

    That sounds to me more like a politician trying to change topic, again a common tactic. I can't see the racism there, accept for those committing the attacks. This is a very reaching 'guilt by association' type charge.

    A politician with any backbone would have immediately condemned the attack and not offered his "supporters" any semblance of cover for their actions. It doesn't take any intellect whatsoever to see what happened and immediately condemn it. Just like it shouldn't have taken Trump several hours to disavow his KKK and white supremacists endorsements.

    It's not "reaching" for guilt at all. It's a simple case of listening to what Trump says and realizing that it's heavily laced with a good dose of racism.

    But, what do I know. I'm just a confused, naive "libertarian".

    If you are someone who is socially leftwing and economically rightwing, you're a Libertarian.
  • Posts: 1,631
    dalton wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    What does the race of the man have to do with anything, in this instance? The guy happened to be non-white, therefore racism? Are we to assume Trump wouldn't have praised his supporters were the guy white?

    Trump's response: “It would be a shame. . . . I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate.”

    That sounds to me more like a politician trying to change topic, again a common tactic. I can't see the racism there, accept for those committing the attacks. This is a very reaching 'guilt by association' type charge.

    A politician with any backbone would have immediately condemned the attack and not offered his "supporters" any semblance of cover for their actions. It doesn't take any intellect whatsoever to see what happened and immediately condemn it. Just like it shouldn't have taken Trump several hours to disavow his KKK and white supremacists endorsements.

    It's not "reaching" for guilt at all. It's a simple case of listening to what Trump says and realizing that it's heavily laced with a good dose of racism.

    But, what do I know. I'm just a confused, naive "libertarian".

    If you are someone who is socially leftwing and economically rightwing, you're a Libertarian.

    I'm not socially leftwing.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    His rhetoric has been incendiary and controversial. It's been blown out of proportion as well. He has always had a history of making controversial statements on several matters, but underlying them in a lot of cases are common sense. He just doesn't express himself clearly (which is something he needs to work on). Some people get the gist of what he's saying (I am one) and others do not.

    There is a need for tighter border controls, there is a need for more immigration control in this era of ISIL & ISIL inspired attacks globally (I've always wondered why folks who visit Turkey in particular for example are not more aggressively checked/questioned, especially when they can easily slip into Syria from there), and there is probably a need for the FBI to beef up their efforts to monitor activities and individuals who may have malicious intentions.

    Now, how could one go about improving the security aspects without racial profiling? Without infringing on people's rights? What's the right balance to strike in this era of asymmetric & lone individual attacks? That is the big question that we've had to wrestle with since 911. Sadly as the number and intensity of attacks increase (as they seem to be), there will have to be more debate about the methods needed to counter and prevent them. We did see a few weeks back that a man with bad intentions only needs a lorry/truck to do significant damage, and not only a gun.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    dalton wrote: »
    It shouldn't be deemed inappropriate to call out someone's racist and bigoted rhetoric as being unacceptable. I don't agree with Trump on much, but it's perfectly fine to debate the merits of NATO, immigration, and so on.

    What is not fine, however, is to demonize large sections of the population based on their race, ethnic background, etc. That is unacceptable, period. It's not a case of getting on one's high horse to criticize someone for racist comments.

    The problem is its very easy to act the alarmist when you hear Trump talk. What people have to understand is that he is attempting to tap into a demographic which has been neglected for decades. Your kind of Robot politics, where you say everything in platitudes simply won't work when you're trying to galvinize people that has been left by the way side by progressivism. So when Trump says we need a wall because to keep Mexicans out because 'they're rapists', its obvious to anyone with a functioning brain that he isn't talking about all Mexicans. But its easy to pretend like thats what he's saying and paint him as some sort of Hitler figure.

    And Trump certainly wasn't talking about all Muslims when he agreed that we may have to look into creating a database to monitor those following the Islamic religion either. Oh wait...

    These half wits can spend all the money they want building a wall to protect us from these exterior threats, but they're missing the fact that the terrorism we really need to be watching out for will come from within the states, and that is the real threat we must face, whether it's cop killers on a bent mission or Americans enraptured and influenced by radical principles espoused from afar.

    But of course you're right, Mendes, progressiveness is the clear enemy that's left everyone behind. If only we didn't have advancements in science and technology, and we able to null and void all the civil liberties we've given to minorities and the LGBT community. Only then would we be right again. 8-|

    We can use all the empty, hollow language we want in pursuit of being pseudo-intellectuals, but when the dick measuring ends, either in the private discussions of American voters or amongst the top brass in government and the candidates for the presidency, and we strip away all the nonessential ad hominem bullshit and loud campaign slogans and ads, only two things remain: those who do good for our system, and those who don't. The real shame is that we're stuck with two people that do more of the latter than the former.

    It baffles me how you continue to defend Islam and in the same post go on to mention civil liberties and the LGBT community.

    @Mendes4Lyfe, you have a knack for taking the least important part of a post and really focusing on it more than the stuff that actually matters.

    It baffles me how you think all Muslims, all over the world are terrorists in the making, and are completely worthy of massive surveillance and prejudice at the hands of people like Trump and his cronies. I've met my share of Muslims throughout my time at university, hailing from all over, and the argument that those around the world sharing that ideology are all evil or eager to blow themselves up in the name of Allah is false. Just as it's not true that all those of a Catholic or Christian faith have to believe or support everything they fear, neither must they. Faith and belief comes in many forms.

    At the end of the day, we're all human beings, and if someone is doing no harm or ill-will to you or others, they don't deserve to be set upon like they're a rabid dog or a monster. It's clear to see that Trump doesn't give a damn about recognizing humanity, however, as he'd be more than eager to reinstate Guantanamo torture tactics on someone whether they're really a terrorist or not, and his go-to solution is to blow things up or beat them into submission. What a diplomat.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,825

    If you are someone who is socially leftwing and economically rightwing, you're a Libertarian.
    Simplistic. But I'd expect no more from you.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,451
    dalton wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    What does the race of the man have to do with anything, in this instance? The guy happened to be non-white, therefore racism? Are we to assume Trump wouldn't have praised his supporters were the guy white?

    Trump's response: “It would be a shame. . . . I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate.”

    That sounds to me more like a politician trying to change topic, again a common tactic. I can't see the racism there, accept for those committing the attacks. This is a very reaching 'guilt by association' type charge.

    A politician with any backbone would have immediately condemned the attack and not offered his "supporters" any semblance of cover for their actions. It doesn't take any intellect whatsoever to see what happened and immediately condemn it. Just like it shouldn't have taken Trump several hours to disavow his KKK and white supremacists endorsements.

    It's not "reaching" for guilt at all. It's a simple case of listening to what Trump says and realizing that it's heavily laced with a good dose of racism.

    But, what do I know. I'm just a confused, naive "libertarian".

    If you are someone who is socially leftwing and economically rightwing, you're a Libertarian.

    I'm not socially leftwing.

    Then you aren't in favour of small government like you originally stated.
  • Posts: 315
    I can't see the racism there.

    We can.

    b4334148748cbd4a857d29f546d4d9a496a21422.jpg

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,825
    Then you aren't in favour of small government like you originally stated.
    LOL, no such thing. You are living in a dream world, Neo.
    :))
  • Posts: 315
    If you are someone who is socially leftwing and economically rightwing, you're a Libertarian.

    You're lost.

    What-is-your-major-malfunction-meme-22241.jpg

  • Posts: 1,631
    Absolute nonsense. That's a simplistic way of looking at politics that seeks to put people into neat little boxes that are easily labeled.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,451
    No, Its a fact. How else are we to enforce laws without force from government?
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 1,631
    Limited government does not mean no government. Look at the 10th Amendment and the section of the GOP platform that pertains to it.

    The GOP Platform as it relates to the 10th Amendment sums up my view, as well as, of course, the GOP, on limited government (and, to emphasize, I'm not endorsing the entire platform in any way, shape or form). This is from the same party that is right-leaning on social issues, proving that one can lean right on both.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,451
    dalton wrote: »
    It shouldn't be deemed inappropriate to call out someone's racist and bigoted rhetoric as being unacceptable. I don't agree with Trump on much, but it's perfectly fine to debate the merits of NATO, immigration, and so on.

    What is not fine, however, is to demonize large sections of the population based on their race, ethnic background, etc. That is unacceptable, period. It's not a case of getting on one's high horse to criticize someone for racist comments.

    The problem is its very easy to act the alarmist when you hear Trump talk. What people have to understand is that he is attempting to tap into a demographic which has been neglected for decades. Your kind of Robot politics, where you say everything in platitudes simply won't work when you're trying to galvinize people that has been left by the way side by progressivism. So when Trump says we need a wall because to keep Mexicans out because 'they're rapists', its obvious to anyone with a functioning brain that he isn't talking about all Mexicans. But its easy to pretend like thats what he's saying and paint him as some sort of Hitler figure.

    And Trump certainly wasn't talking about all Muslims when he agreed that we may have to look into creating a database to monitor those following the Islamic religion either. Oh wait...

    These half wits can spend all the money they want building a wall to protect us from these exterior threats, but they're missing the fact that the terrorism we really need to be watching out for will come from within the states, and that is the real threat we must face, whether it's cop killers on a bent mission or Americans enraptured and influenced by radical principles espoused from afar.

    But of course you're right, Mendes, progressiveness is the clear enemy that's left everyone behind. If only we didn't have advancements in science and technology, and we able to null and void all the civil liberties we've given to minorities and the LGBT community. Only then would we be right again. 8-|

    We can use all the empty, hollow language we want in pursuit of being pseudo-intellectuals, but when the dick measuring ends, either in the private discussions of American voters or amongst the top brass in government and the candidates for the presidency, and we strip away all the nonessential ad hominem bullshit and loud campaign slogans and ads, only two things remain: those who do good for our system, and those who don't. The real shame is that we're stuck with two people that do more of the latter than the former.

    It baffles me how you continue to defend Islam and in the same post go on to mention civil liberties and the LGBT community.

    @Mendes4Lyfe, you have a knack for taking the least important part of a post and really focusing on it more than the stuff that actually matters.

    It baffles me how you think all Muslims, all over the world are terrorists in the making, and are completely worthy of massive surveillance and prejudice at the hands of people like Trump and his cronies. I've met my share of Muslims throughout my time at university, hailing from all over, and the argument that those around the world sharing that ideology are all evil or eager to blow themselves up in the name of Allah is false. Just as it's not true that all those of a Catholic or Christian faith have to believe or support everything they fear, neither must they. Faith and belief comes in many forms.

    At the end of the day, we're all human beings, and if someone is doing no harm or ill-will to you or others, they don't deserve to be set upon like they're a rabid dog or a monster. It's clear to see that Trump doesn't give a damn about recognizing humanity, however, as he'd be more than eager to reinstate Guantanamo torture tactics on someone whether they're really a terrorist or not, and his go-to solution is to blow things up or beat them into submission. What a diplomat.

    Interesting, so these thousands of cases of violent crimes are commited by just a tiny minority, but the few individuals you met at uni represent the vast majority?
  • Posts: 233
    Pointing out that the vast majority of Muslims are perfectly sensible people is not the same as "defending Islam".
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,451
    Pointing out that the vast majority of Muslims are perfectly sensible people is not the same as "defending Islam".

    Believing in Dogma of any kind is far from sensible. Of course people have the right to do it, but that doesn't make it sensible.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Pointing out that the vast majority of Muslims are perfectly sensible people is not the same as "defending Islam".

    Thanks for making the point for me, @JawsIsAlive. Didn't think it'd need clearing up, but there you have it.
    Pointing out that the vast majority of Muslims are perfectly sensible people is not the same as "defending Islam".

    Believing in Dogma of any kind is far from sensible. Of course people have the right to do it, but that doesn't make it sensible.

    Seeing as America is recognized as a Christian nation and is stock full of people in governmental power that believe in dogma and the big man in the sky, especially your sacred right wingers, watch who you're calling silly. Given some of your posts I've read, you would fit right in with the circus.

  • Believing in Dogma of any kind is far from sensible. Of course people have the right to do it, but that doesn't make it sensible.

    Oh, so THAT'S why you say such nonsensical things. Message received, signing off...
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694

    Believing in Dogma of any kind is far from sensible. Of course people have the right to do it, but that doesn't make it sensible.

    Oh, so THAT'S why you say such nonsensical things. Message received, signing off...

    @BeatlesSansEarmuffs, were you not aware of the deity Aidan Turner that he prays to five times a day, and ten times on Sunday?
  • Posts: 233
    I've never really listened to a Trump speech all the way through before, but that was unbelievable. A rambling diatribe of hatred and outright lies.

    This awful demagogue must be beaten, for the sake of our collective humanity.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    That was a tough speech. Much tougher than I expected. He essentially did not hold back or attempt to broaden his appeal. Rather he held his ground on what he's been saying for some time, and delivered the speech very forcefully (perhaps too forcefully, at least from where I was sitting).

    It is likely to be quite polarizing, but he did convincingly double down on the 'strength' and 'change' argument, and credibly positioned himself as someone who will fight for America and the voter.

    Not what I was expecting certainly, but I came away thinking that he believes what he says. There was a distinct righteous indignation and authenticity to it, even if I didn't agree with all of it.
  • Posts: 1,631
    I think we can conclude tonight that the pivot is not coming. He's going to run a primary campaign in the general election.

    Frightening, I think, seems to be an operative word to describe the speech. He had a chance to pivot and try to win over undecideds. Instead, I think he made up their minds for them, but not in the way he wanted.

    Sadly, though, I had a sinking feeling while watching that speech, as awful as it was, that we're about to elect that man President of the United States. Trump is right on one thing, there are frightening times ahead, but they'll be because of his presence in the White House, not because of any of the things he talked about tonight.

    Washington is broken, and it does need to be fixed, but not by this man.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Well, lads, one thing to look forward to (the only thing really) is at the very least watching Hillary destroy him in the debates and pummel his many areas of ignorance into a snortable pile of ash. A sect of the public and many media outlets have already treated this entire election as more of a boxing match than a bid for aiding America, and that's exactly what they'll be getting now. Insults will be waved and witch hunts signaled on both sides, network ratings will spike, the people will get their bread and circuses, and it'll feel like the Greek way never left. What a pathetic state we're in.
  • Posts: 1,631
    Well, lads, one thing to look forward to (the only thing really) is at the very least watching Hillary destroy him in the debates and pummel his many areas of ignorance into a snortable pile of ash. A sect of the public and many media outlets have already treated this entire election as more of a boxing match than a bid for aiding America, and that's exactly what they'll be getting now. Insults will be waved and witch hunts signaled on both sides, network ratings will spike, the people will get their bread and circuses, and it'll feel like the Greek way never left. What a pathetic state we're in.

    Unfortunately, this seems to be exactly where Trump excels.

    Hoping for Hillary to crush him in the debates feels like something of a last resort. We've already had 16 other people completely fail to do this, so now Hillary feels like that free safety who is the only person left between the receiver and the endzone.

    She's very good in a policy-driven debate, but we all know that Trump is going to try to pull the three debates down into the gutter where he does his best work.

    Let's just hope that she (and hopefully Gary Johnson) will be able to put a stop to this madness in the debates and not leave this thing as an uncertainty heading into election day.
  • Have faith, all. We've just withstood 4 days of hatred, lies and a failed attempt to force unity where none exists. Next week the Democratic Party has their say, and the American People get a chance to compare & contrast. Brighter days are surely ahead...
  • Posts: 1,631
    Have faith, all. We've just withstood 4 days of hatred, lies and a failed attempt to force unity where none exists. Next week the Democratic Party has their say, and the American People get a chance to compare & contrast. Brighter days are surely ahead...

    One can only hope.

    But, as someone who despises his party's nominee as much as the other, it's going to be a long 100 or so days until the election.

    It's a sad state of affairs when, with all of the talented people in this country on both sides of the aisle, that these are the best two we can come up with as a nation.
  • Posts: 7,507
    bondjames wrote: »
    That was a tough speech. Much tougher than I expected. He essentially did not hold back or attempt to broaden his appeal. Rather he held his ground on what he's been saying for some time, and delivered the speech very forcefully (perhaps too forcefully, at least from where I was sitting).

    It is likely to be quite polarizing, but he did convincingly double down on the 'strength' and 'change' argument, and credibly positioned himself as someone who will fight for America and the voter.

    Not what I was expecting certainly, but I came away thinking that he believes what he says. There was a distinct righteous indignation and authenticity to it, even if I didn't agree with all of it.


    Please @bondjames, stop with this nonsense! Being 'genuine' and 'believing what you say' is ok I guess, but it is not really a virtue if what you say is nonsensical, rambling, rampant hate speech with the purpose of invoking fear in people, is it? And believing in outright lies is the share definition of ignorance, isn't it? You have clung on to the idea that Trump will suddenly and magically reveal himself as a reasonable and fair person who only has been using som exaggerated retoric to win voters, yet at the same time you claim 'he is genuine and believe what he says'. That doesn't make much sense to me, and we have yet to see any sign of rational or sanity hidden behind his words. Why insist that it has to be there at all?

    And on the point that actually matters (but yet is somehow lost in the American run for presidency...), political debate: Is it really the case that what America needs is tighter border controls? For me it seems quite obvious that the biggest threat to USA, wether in the high branches of office or on the street, with or without guns or money, comes from within.
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