The Next American President Thread (2016)

16566687071198

Comments

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    He said that the USA may not assist in helping another NATO country when it's under attack.

    This is the reason he said that: https://i.redditmedia.com/AiwLcZJ6L4jvcfovSIBNT9Eupeh1F_h1zf1k9-t1CSI.png?w=951&s=ab8f1b471aa4cdb40532f2013dba3c58

    Trump is thinking ahead. As a presidents, one of his goals will be to convince all NATO members to do more to meet the 2% defense spending goal. Why would countries like Latvia or Lithuania spend more on defense if the US says: "don't worry about ignoring the defense speding goal, if someone attacks you, we will save you anyway".

    Trump is clearly a master negotiator.
    Thank you for saving me the time and effort to clarify the obvious @PanchitoPistoles. This is what I meant earlier about why our politics is discussed today at a base level - because folks have got to a point where they get their analysis from the media, expect everything to be spelled out for them by the talking heads, take everything at face value, and can't see any of the angles themselves. Sometimes I can't be bothered.

    The Trump approach is to adopt a muscular foreign policy negotiating position and force a change in approach and financing in order to improve the US's financial expenditures on Defense (where he has noted, correctly, that there is presently massive wastage).

    You will see the same approach adopted with the 'Kingdoms' in the Middle East as well.
  • Posts: 1,631
    @jobo I agree, but the other problem is that the more insane Trump's ideas are, the more they stick. The more the media talks about his ideas, the more they stick. It gets everyone talking about it, so they stick even more. And we live in a time where being negative on far-right candidates only manages to give them further free publicity, and they actually get out stronger from it.

    It's been going on for a few years now. Every single time politicians, journalists or whoever are critical of far right ideas, it backfires on them, and not on those they are trying to criticize. That's the key problem, there is nothing massively positive that has been said about EU benifits/Hillary Clinton, and being critical on the other side only backfires on you.

    It's even more interesting this time around with Trump because even the people he purports to be leading don't particularly like him. He's ascended to where he is because he's a master manipulator of the media, has exploited and stoked the fears of some of the more moderate and well-meaning members of the right, and then finally has whipped the extreme-right racist element of the party into an absolute frenzy, given that disgusting fringe of the party the necessary cover to express their views publicly without the usual consequences for doing so.

    But, a large section of the right can't stand him, from your more rank-and-file Republican-types (those that would tend to vote for the Bushes, Kasichs, and Rubios of the world) to even the more hardcore Tea Party-types (those that would tend to back Cruz and Walker). Thanks to his manipulation of the media, the criticisms of him from the parts of the party that haven't completely lost their mind don't stick, not to even mention the criticisms from the left.

    The media has shown no interest in vetting him. Every time they're critical (to use CNN as an example), they'll turn and give the floor to one of their three Trump supporters to will bend over backwards to the point of being in danger of breaking their backs to defend even the most racist of Trump's rhetoric. They do this under the guise of equal time, but that's already out the window since, from the start, they've made sure to give Trump more coverage than any other candidate. Trump's vile rhetoric should not be given the cover that it has been given from the media, but it's too late on that front, I'm afraid. Debates on the few actual policies of his that we know of (his NATO ideas, potential replacements for ObamaCare, etc.) are fine and should have differing views presented to facilitate the debate, even if the ideas are ludicrous. But, the media has gone further than that, to give cover for him to continue spewing the racially-charged rhetoric that serves no other purpose than to fan the flames and, at times, encourage violence, and his feet are never held to the proverbial flame on these issues for long enough to make a difference.

    The problem with defeating Trump, IMO, lies within both the disaffected bloc of GOP voters as well as the Democratic party. I think you'd find Trump having a much more difficult time if the Democrats had nominated a candidate that hasn't made it a point to demonize the right. Her calling the Republicans and, by extension of that, their voters the "enemy" that she's most proud to have made over her career just makes it even more difficult for someone to woo the necessary votes from the disaffected right to ensure that Trump doesn't pull off the upset and win the presidency. Not to mention that she is very much a part of the Washington establishment that desperately needs to be disassembled, which is something that an insurgent candidate could do, but clearly Trump is not the right man to carry that banner.

    With a candidate without the baggage that Clinton has and that is more willing to welcome disaffected voters from the other side for something other than getting their vote, I think you'd find more of an appetite from anti-Trump Republicans to pull the lever for the Democratic candidate. Not everyone on the right is one of the raving lunatics in attendance at the convention shouting nonsensical epithets. Otherwise, us anti-Trump Republican-leaning voters are left with the choice of voting for someone who considers us her "enemy" and doesn't align with many, if any, of our political ideals or casting our vote for Gary Johnson and Bill Weld and simply hoping for the best.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,718
    @dalton, I think under any normal circumstances, a candidate saying stuff like 'I'd shoot one of my supporters and I would not lose votes', or 'let's ban muslims from entering the country' or 'let's build a wall around Mexico', would be totally destroyed in debates. But all these ideas seem to stick, and they get everyone talking whether they agree or not, and the media are also all over these quotes. It's an endless circle. I'm not saying these ideas shouldn't be debated/criticized, but the Clinton side should be more positive on her campaign. All I see currently is people blasting Trump, and it doesn't hurt him in the slightest.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    smitty wrote: »
    The DNC did not rig the game. The rules were in place well in advance of Sanders run for Pres. Sanders and his team knew the rules going in and they exploited them to their advantage, particularly in the caucus states (which they dominated), and which are rather undemocratic. They had small turn outs, and were totally dominated by college students, and other non working voters who could camp out all day to vote during the endless caucus process. Sanders played those caucus states well, but it was hardly NY, FL, CA, NJ etc, with huge primary populations, almost all of which Clinton won.
    Votes were not counted, voters were turned away or made to wait too long, & votes switched. All in areas that would be most pro Bernie.
    That my friend is rigging.
    But I understand, because in the end they feared Bernie more than Trump....
  • Posts: 7,507
    What the media really should be better at is to expose Trump's many outright lies. Critisicing his political views obviously don't work, but at least tell the world when he is lying. Only lesser "news programs" like The Daily Show seem to digg in and investigate his statements, his actual fortune, his fanincial history etc. The mainstream media seem to lag behind there. But I guess most of Trump's followers only watch Fox News, so og might not really matter anyway...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    jobo wrote: »
    What the media really should be better at is to expose Trump's many outright lies. Critisicing his political views obviously don't work, but at least tell the world when he is lying. Only lesser "news programs" like The Daily Show seem to digg in and investigate his statements, his actual fortune, his fanincial history etc. The mainstream media seem to lag behind there. But I guess most of Trump's followers only watch Fox News, so og might not really matter anyway...
    Most of Trump's supporters don't give a toss what he says; he represents anger & power. What scares me is the group that hates the status quo (Hillary) so much they will go third party or not vote at all. Trump will win.
    DNC- snag Bernie now while you can! Otherwise you'll hand it to The Donald with a bow on top....
  • Posts: 342
    jobo wrote: »
    What the media really should be better at is to expose Trump's many outright lies. Critisicing his political views obviously don't work, but at least tell the world when he is lying. Only lesser "news programs" like The Daily Show seem to digg in and investigate his statements, his actual fortune, his fanincial history etc. The mainstream media seem to lag behind there. But I guess most of Trump's followers only watch Fox News, so og might not really matter anyway...

    I don't live in the US, and only see what UK media tell us about Trump, but it seems to me they are doing their best to do a hatchet job to present the narrative that Trump is totally unsuitable to be President by picking up on random statements to prove he is politically incorrect.

    What I never see is any serious examination of the serious issues. From the small titbits I've seen, he seems to be raising some interesting issues - such as middle class incomes stagnating, the impacts upon jobs of exporting jobs overseas, immigration from countries that US is actively bombing, need to audit the Fed, the nature of spend on the military. I may not agree with Trump's views, but I think these are serious issues that deserved to be discussed - but the media is totally unwilling to do so preferring to call Trump names. Reminds me of the old adage - in politics, if you cannot attack the message, then attack the messenger.

    Take exporting jobs - example, IBM have moved jobs to regional hubs in low cost countries to reduce costs. If that were stopped, IBM costs would increase, profits reduced and Executive bonuses cut. Hence media campaign to discredit messenger.

    We have had this in the UK, where if anyone threatens the establishment, the media go into overdrive to blacken the messenger. Whether it's political incorrect statements, sexual antics, or even members of their family ( example - previous Labour leader Ed Milliband being attacked for left-leaning comments made by his father in the 1940s!)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Troy wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    What the media really should be better at is to expose Trump's many outright lies. Critisicing his political views obviously don't work, but at least tell the world when he is lying. Only lesser "news programs" like The Daily Show seem to digg in and investigate his statements, his actual fortune, his fanincial history etc. The mainstream media seem to lag behind there. But I guess most of Trump's followers only watch Fox News, so og might not really matter anyway...

    I don't live in the US, and only see what UK media tell us about Trump, but it seems to me they are doing their best to do a hatchet job to present the narrative that Trump is totally unsuitable to be President by picking up on random statements to prove he is politically incorrect.

    What I never see is any serious examination of the serious issues. From the small titbits I've seen, he seems to be raising some interesting issues - such as middle class incomes stagnating, the impacts upon jobs of exporting jobs overseas, immigration from countries that US is actively bombing, need to audit the Fed, the nature of spend on the military. I may not agree with Trump's views, but I think these are serious issues that deserved to be discussed - but the media is totally unwilling to do so preferring to call Trump names. Reminds me of the old adage - in politics, if you cannot attack the message, then attack the messenger.

    Take exporting jobs - example, IBM have moved jobs to regional hubs in low cost countries to reduce costs. If that were stopped, IBM costs would increase, profits reduced and Executive bonuses cut. Hence media campaign to discredit messenger.

    We have had this in the UK, where if anyone threatens the establishment, the media go into overdrive to blacken the messenger. Whether it's political incorrect statements, sexual antics, or even members of their family ( example - previous Labour leader Ed Milliband being attacked for left-leaning comments made by his father in the 1940s!)
    You've got it @Troy. He gets it too, and that's why he amplifies his remarks in bombastic ways. He knows that this is the only way to cut through the clutter without spending too much money and still get his message across to free thinkers and those who do not necessarily take their talking points from media pundits. He has indeed raised several major big picture issues that need discussing. He's counting on the American public still being a big picture nation and catching onto this. He is shaping the issues narrative, and not his opponent. What impresses me about him is that he doesn't care what the media say about him personally. He embraces it and thrives on it. Many others would lose it.

    From a foreign policy perspective, he wants to reduce our defense budget while still carrying the big stick and projecting fear into enemies. It's better to be feared than loved in his view. He believes that the 'institutions' of foreign policy that we have in place are too bureaucratic, too costly, too 'entitled' and not designed to face today's asymmetric threats quickly enough. His approach to force change is to confront it straight on and aggressively, because there is not other way to get them to change. They are too fixed in their ways. Witness the changes that will come as a result of Brexit - none of what is to come would have come about if Remain had won.

    For 30 yrs, folks on the right have been quoting (and misquoting) & bastardizing Ronald Reagan to make themselves look bigger than they are. The latest example of this was Cruz attempting to pull a Reagan 76 at this year's convention, but misunderstanding that Reagan ultimately did the right thing for the party and supported the eventual nominee (even though Ford lost, as Trump may do). Even Obama channeled him in his 2008 campaign, saying he was transformative (much to the disdain of some on the left). Reagan was definitely a man for his times. Clinton (Bill) was a man for his (which was a time of relative peace). Bush Sr. was a competent caretaker and the less said about Bush Jr. the better. Trump's perspective is that Obama is not a man for his time, and Clinton will be more of the same. That the US needs a transformative leader again. That's his bet. Time will tell if he's right.
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    He said that the USA may not assist in helping another NATO country when it's under attack.

    This is the reason he said that: https://i.redditmedia.com/AiwLcZJ6L4jvcfovSIBNT9Eupeh1F_h1zf1k9-t1CSI.png?w=951&s=ab8f1b471aa4cdb40532f2013dba3c58

    Trump is thinking ahead. As a presidents, one of his goals will be to convince all NATO members to do more to meet the 2% defense spending goal. Why would countries like Latvia or Lithuania spend more on defense if the US says: "don't worry about ignoring the defense speding goal, if someone attacks you, we will save you anyway".

    Trump is clearly a master negotiator.
    Thank you for saving me the time and effort to clarify the obvious @PanchitoPistoles. This is what I meant earlier about why our politics is discussed today at a base level - because folks have got to a point where they get their analysis from the media, expect everything to be spelled out for them by the talking heads, take everything at face value, and can't see any of the angles themselves. Sometimes I can't be bothered.

    The Trump approach is to adopt a muscular foreign policy negotiating position and force a change in approach and financing in order to improve the US's financial expenditures on Defense (where he has noted, correctly, that there is presently massive wastage).

    You will see the same approach adopted with the 'Kingdoms' in the Middle East as well.

    So you would prefer others 'saving' you, so you don't have to do the talking yourself. Fact is: In certain scenario's Trump wants to ignore Article 5 and therefore the very essence of the NATO. I find that reckless and no sign at all of being a 'negotiator master'.

    And again, you do NOT go into specifics yourself. It makes you as reckless as Donald Trump. You keep talking like Trump these days, as if you are as well the sole instrument of the people, as if you really understand the people (and I don't??).

    Man, you can 'understand' until you weigh an ounce........the fact is, you keep not going into specifics and solutions. And you can 'understand' all you want, in the end you risk selling 'the people' one hell of a dead horse. And you find that idea appealing. It's the very essence of contentless populism...and it at times meanders into post-fascism (a form of radical authoritarian nationalism).
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 7,507
    @Troy

    I certainly agree with that. Not least the media should demand of Trump (and the other candidates) to actually explain his ideas on these issues more in detail. Trump has only barely touched on the issues you mention, he has never really explained how he wants to adress them other than with brash and bombastic statements that in reality don't explain much. Pressure him to explain his agenda in detail, then debate his views. That's how proper journalism works. Instead they cover the issues at Trump's level, only skimming the surface and resorting to name calling.

    In fact the media has never really respected Trump as a proper candidate, and that has in fact helped his candidacy. In stead of cheap attacks and focusing on his antics and public persona, discuss his actual ideas in detail.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    He said that the USA may not assist in helping another NATO country when it's under attack.

    This is the reason he said that: https://i.redditmedia.com/AiwLcZJ6L4jvcfovSIBNT9Eupeh1F_h1zf1k9-t1CSI.png?w=951&s=ab8f1b471aa4cdb40532f2013dba3c58

    Trump is thinking ahead. As a presidents, one of his goals will be to convince all NATO members to do more to meet the 2% defense spending goal. Why would countries like Latvia or Lithuania spend more on defense if the US says: "don't worry about ignoring the defense speding goal, if someone attacks you, we will save you anyway".

    Trump is clearly a master negotiator.
    Thank you for saving me the time and effort to clarify the obvious @PanchitoPistoles. This is what I meant earlier about why our politics is discussed today at a base level - because folks have got to a point where they get their analysis from the media, expect everything to be spelled out for them by the talking heads, take everything at face value, and can't see any of the angles themselves. Sometimes I can't be bothered.

    The Trump approach is to adopt a muscular foreign policy negotiating position and force a change in approach and financing in order to improve the US's financial expenditures on Defense (where he has noted, correctly, that there is presently massive wastage).

    You will see the same approach adopted with the 'Kingdoms' in the Middle East as well.

    So you would prefer others 'saving' you, so you don't have to do the talking yourself. Fact is: In certain scenario's Trump wants to ignore Article 5 and therefore the very essence of the NATO. I find that reckless and no sign at all of being a 'negotiator master'.

    And again, you do NOT go into specifics yourself. It makes you as reckless as Donald Trump. You keep talking like Trump these days, as if you are as well the sole instrument of the people, as if you really understand the people (and I don't??).

    Man, you can 'understand' until you weigh an ounce........the fact is, you keep not going into specifics and solutions. And you can 'understand' all you want, in the end you risk selling 'the people' one hell of a dead horse. And you find that idea appealing. It's the very essence of contentless populism...and it at times meanders into post-fascism (a form of radical authoritarian nationalism).
    Again, as I said earlier, you seem to have made this personal as you tend to do. I won't. I realize I'm a bad person in your eyes for not buying into your point of view and I'm sorry I've upset you. I will make my own decision on things and you're welcome to make your own. I thought we agreed to disagree almost a month ago. I've disengaged, and I hope you do too.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,119
    jobo wrote: »
    What the media really should be better at is to expose Trump's many outright lies. Critisicing his political views obviously don't work, but at least tell the world when he is lying. Only lesser "news programs" like The Daily Show seem to digg in and investigate his statements, his actual fortune, his fanincial history etc. The mainstream media seem to lag behind there. But I guess most of Trump's followers only watch Fox News, so og might not really matter anyway...

    It doesn't help @Jobo. As I see it it's very simple. The Donald can get away with all the shit he caused in Atlantic City for instance. He can get away with anything. He once said it himself! So whatever media outlet goes digging into that (even Fox News)......They. Don't. Give. A. S&%t.

    Hillary Clinton however........man, people are seriously asking for Hillary's head. That she should be shot. That she should be raped. That she should go to prison. Man, and no one in here condems that?

    --> Trump indicted for his criminal activities at Trump University? The people then chant: "Bring those judges to prison!!"
    --> Hillary reprimanded by the FBI? The people then chant: "Hillary to prison!!" or "Comey should be ashamed of defending Crooked Hillary!"
    --> Ted Cruz being honest by saying "Vote for your conscience!" The people then chant: "Ted is a sore loser!!". I mean....really? Since when do we throw away such a message?? Are we really that....fascist?
    --> Melania Trump copy-pasting words from Michelle Obama? Ahh, no problem!
    --> Michelle Obama copy-pasting words from Donald Trump? "Go away Michelle with your big fat arms!!"

    Obviously, these examples of double standards show how populism defends those people who are populists and asks for the heads of those people who are not populists.

    864x486.jpg
    1467126541440
    yUjNeTl.jpg

    And make no mistake, Donald Trump got way way more media coverage than Hillary Clinton. People in here may condemn the media, but The Donald is playing with it like a Barbie doll. He needs the very same media. To such an extent that his Trump supporters are basically building a safeguard wall protecting Trump. Because if you dare to criticise Trump, you will be indicted. And it doesn't matter if you are a Democrat or a Republican.

    I find that sick really. It's scary. And it reminds me of some events from the Interbellum era. I condemn this kind of campaign.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,718
    I hope @Gustav_Graves is condemning the Clinton campaign too, because she's also playing into Trump's game by mentioning his insane ideas and saying it's 'stupid/bullshit/whatever', as she's giving him the free publicity he wants. Just like your beloved Remain campaign in the UK referendum was a huge free publicity for the Leave campaign.

    That's the huge problem in the world in the last few years - every political sides are making woeful campaigns.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,119
    I hope @Gustav_Graves is condemning the Clinton campaign too, because she's also playing into Trump's game by mentioning his insane ideas and saying it's 'stupid/bullshit/whatever', as she's giving him the free publicity he wants. Just like your beloved Remain campaign in the UK referendum was a huge free publicity for the Leave campaign.

    That's the huge problem in the world in the last few years - every political sides are making woeful campaigns.

    You only ought to condemn faul language. That's enough. Mentioning insane ideas is actually a starting point of going into specifics. But really.......to say that Hillary should be shot? That's a step too far.

    And in all honesty @DaltonCraig007......regardless of how words are used. Watching the RNC made me really sick at times. The sheer hate I heard and saw there....is at least less dominant present within the Clinton campaign. If protesters during the RNC openly say to gay people that they should burn themselves.......one has to ask him/herself which campaign racists will support more: The Trump campaign? Or the Clinton campaign. I know the answer.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,718
    I hope @Gustav_Graves is condemning the Clinton campaign too, because she's also playing into Trump's game by mentioning his insane ideas and saying it's 'stupid/bullshit/whatever', as she's giving him the free publicity he wants. Just like your beloved Remain campaign in the UK referendum was a huge free publicity for the Leave campaign.

    That's the huge problem in the world in the last few years - every political sides are making woeful campaigns.

    You only ought to condemn faul language. That's enough. Mentioning insane ideas is actually a starting point of going into specifics. But really.......to say that Hillary should be shot? That's a step too far.

    You seem to be completely oblivious that this is precisely playing in Trump's favour. He gets a rise every time his insane ideas are mentioning without saying anything else. Doing what the Clinton campaign and the media are doing is simply adding petrol in the tank of Trump's campaign. When you finally see that and go about Trump in another matter, he will continue to benefit from it.

    Your behaviour and reasoning makes you and the Clinton campaign the biggest Trumo supporters, since you are only adding fuel to the fire. So stop moaning about Trump and handle him in a different manner. If you don't want the situation to 'worsen', as you say, you have only yourself to blame. You are equally part of the problem.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @DaltonCraig007, there is a Trump persona. Something he himself refers to as 'The Donald'. You are correct that attacks on him just fuel that larger than life media persona. It's a sideshow, and he is a very difficult candidate to defeat with traditional personal attacks, because they just don't work.

    If he is to be defeated, it will be on the issues, but that requires the media to actually start talking about them properly, rather than in negative sound bite terms as well.

    The debates will be crucial this year. All expectations are that he will be shown as a buffoon and will be decimated. If he can hold his ground, then watch out.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,718
    @bondjames It does seem that no one actually knows how to handle Trump. Same thing is happening with Le Pen in France. Merely mentioning them and/or their ideas seems to backfire on everyone except them. Which is why they should change tactics very soon. Going about the issue in same way we have been doing for the last few years is the most certain way of getting Trump and Le Pen elected as President in USA and France, amongst other far-right parties in other countries
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,119
    I hope @Gustav_Graves is condemning the Clinton campaign too, because she's also playing into Trump's game by mentioning his insane ideas and saying it's 'stupid/bullshit/whatever', as she's giving him the free publicity he wants. Just like your beloved Remain campaign in the UK referendum was a huge free publicity for the Leave campaign.

    That's the huge problem in the world in the last few years - every political sides are making woeful campaigns.

    You only ought to condemn faul language. That's enough. Mentioning insane ideas is actually a starting point of going into specifics. But really.......to say that Hillary should be shot? That's a step too far.

    You seem to be completely oblivious that this is precisely playing in Trump's favour. He gets a rise every time his insane ideas are mentioning without saying anything else. Doing what the Clinton campaign and the media are doing is simply adding petrol in the tank of Trump's campaign. When you finally see that and go about Trump in another matter, he will continue to benefit from it.

    Your behaviour and reasoning makes you and the Clinton campaign the biggest Trumo supporters, since you are only adding fuel to the fire. So stop moaning about Trump and handle him in a different manner. If you don't want the situation to 'worsen', as you say, you have only yourself to blame. You are equally part of the problem.

    What kind of nonsense is that really. I already admitted that there's nothing you can do about populists. They lack all the self-criticism on planet Earth. Criticising them is not in their playbooks, but calling for the heads of Clinton is appopriate.

    Look, I know where I am coming from. Geert Wilders is in politics in The Netherlands since 2005. He continues using language that borders racism. Four years ago politicians thought they could shut him up by forming a minority government with Geert Wilders' Freedom Party (PVV) as an extraparliamentary supporter. I tell you this. It put our country backwards for 2 years.

    It didn't help a shit. So many people were silent during these days. Nobody wanted to criticise him more openly. And look where he's now after 11 years? He's en route to actually WIN next year's parliament elections (our parliament has got 150 seats):
    lvhIXUs.jpg

    And I am actually....appalled by your call on 'staying silent'. By jolly, are we really surrendering to 'freedom for the very few'? In which ONLY Trump supporters can say what they want....and that people like me should be silent?? I tell you this. Never.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I agree @DaltonCraig007. Those in power seem unable to truly speak about the issues that matter to the common man/woman in a meaningful way that connects because that will infringe on their corporate (including military) benefactor's perspective. So they come across as uncaring or out of touch.

    He can, and so could Sanders. I realized that quite some time ago which is why I was interested in both of these candidates even though they are on completely opposite political sides of the spectrum. Their common link is "unfiltered" messaging to the common man/woman.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,718
    Calm down, @Gustav_Graves. I am saying how we've all been handling Trump and other far right candidates in recent years has done nothing but add fuel to the fire. If there is 'nothing we can do about it' then please, in the name of all that's Holy, stop mentioning all Far-Right ideas and Candidates under any circumstances. Put a huge media blackout on any mention of them. Because the way your side of the equation has been mentioning them, you are equally responsible for their successes. It is hard to accept, but it is what it is. Trump benefits from playing the fear card, and he benefits from that all his opponents like you who are adding fuel to the fire. Either change tactics, or stop mentioning him all together, but your current behaviour makes you the biggest ally of Far-Right candidates.
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree @DaltonCraig007. Those in power seem unable to truly speak about the issues that matter to the common man/woman in a meaningful way that connects because that will infringe on their corporate (including military) benefactor's perspective. So they come across as uncaring or out of touch.

    He can, and so could Sanders. I realized that quite some time ago which is why I was interested in both of these candidates.

    I never said that I don't want that to happen. But it still means that the 'easy language' needs to be translated into solutions.

    You can appeal to the people. I have no problem with that. But if it stays only that and never becomes a more detailed solutions, in the end you will disappoint the people even more. If you are really so obsessive about Trump's politics, then let him go into the specifics. Is it that hard to ask for that?

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Why are you pushing @bondjames to go into the specifics of Trump's politics? Who cares (sorry @bondjames) what he thinks. He influences no one but himself. The key problem is the Clinton campaign and the media are simply endlessly mentioning Trump's ideas without going into specifics, as you are asking. It's Clinton who is running for President, it's her who talks to dozens of millions of people on TV. Clinton's way of tackling Trump is useless and appalling. She's adding fuel to the fire, and she has a major influence that @bondjames don't.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree @DaltonCraig007. Those in power seem unable to truly speak about the issues that matter to the common man/woman in a meaningful way that connects because that will infringe on their corporate (including military) benefactor's perspective. So they come across as uncaring or out of touch.

    He can, and so could Sanders. I realized that quite some time ago which is why I was interested in both of these candidates.

    I never said that I don't want that to happen. But it still means that the 'easy language' needs to be translated into solutions.

    You can appeal to the people. I have no problem with that. But if it stays only that and never becomes a more detailed solutions, in the end you will disappoint the people even more. If you are really so obsessive about Trump's politics, then let him go into the specifics. Is it that hard to ask for that?
    If I may say, you are the one who seems obsessed.

    I've already explained how important the debates are, and that only a certain level of detail is required because of the need to get congressional approval on most matters of domestic consequence. I'm disappointed by the need to repeat myself yet again.

    You are correct @DaltonCraig007. I am completely inconsequential to this. A common pleb.
  • You want to hear positive stuff about Hillary? The Dem. convention starts next week.

    You want the media to call Trump out on his lies? Seems to me that's been starting to happen in the last few days.

    And one last point about The Evil of Trump: now he's gone too far, now I'm taking it personally! Forgive me, I didn't actually watch much of the R Con at all, I just catch what the media reports. I knew that Trump had made his appearance to the strains of Queen's "We are the Champions" and just thought that was kind of sick. Sure, take the work of a bisexual man who died of AIDS to buttress the position of the most anti-gay platform fielded in the modern American political arena. Bitter irony is a taste all politicians should develop a fondness for. What I didn't know was that his introduction also included a bit of classic Beatles music: "Here Comes the Sun" written by George Harrison. Not cool, Donnie. The Beatles belong to everybody but you can't have THAT. The estate of the late Mr. Harrison has noted their objection to the use with customary grace and good humor, stating that they MIGHT have been willing to approve of the Trump campaign using a different Harrisong: "Beware of Darkness" from George's initial solo album All Things Must Pass. A perntinent passage:

    Watch out now
    Take care, beware of greedy leaders
    They'll take you where you should not go
    While weeping Atlas cedars
    They just want to grow, grow and grow...
    Beware of darkness
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,718
    @bondjames It seems we have entered a totally new era in Politics, in every countries, and no one was prepared for this, and no one knows how to handle this. All the Far-Right candidates (and Far-Left in countries that feature these) seemingly have a clear path ahead of them to come up with extreme ideas, borderline racist claims (and most often than not 100% racist soundbites), and aiming the most vile insults at 'Traditional' candidates. Talking like this should normally be absolutely condemned, but Trump and others actually make political gain every time they utter nonsense. Whether with people who agree or are revolted by this, these soundbites stick like a hell, people endlessly talk about it, it sticks more.. an endless circle.

    You'd think the traditional parties could rub the noses of Trump and co in their stupidity, but all it does is giving free publicity to Trump/etc and don't hurt them in the slightest. Every single time the media and traditional candidates try to attack these insane claims, even the mere mentioning of them only adds fuel to the fire.

    Very strange times we are in, when the extreme politicians seem to get away with practically anything, while the rest are in some kind of 'vacuum space' where saying anything negative on the far left/right politicians backfires immediately.

    Which is why there needs to be a total re-thinking of politics, world-wide.
    You want to hear positive stuff about Hillary? The Dem. convention starts next week.

    Only about 8+ months too late. Just like the 'Remain' side of the UK referendum who realized they've been doing a woeful campaign when it was over.

  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree @DaltonCraig007. Those in power seem unable to truly speak about the issues that matter to the common man/woman in a meaningful way that connects because that will infringe on their corporate (including military) benefactor's perspective. So they come across as uncaring or out of touch.

    He can, and so could Sanders. I realized that quite some time ago which is why I was interested in both of these candidates.

    I never said that I don't want that to happen. But it still means that the 'easy language' needs to be translated into solutions.

    You can appeal to the people. I have no problem with that. But if it stays only that and never becomes a more detailed solutions, in the end you will disappoint the people even more. If you are really so obsessive about Trump's politics, then let him go into the specifics. Is it that hard to ask for that?
    If I may say, you are the one who seems obsessed.

    I've already explained how important the debates are, and that only a certain level of detail is required because of the need to get congressional approval on most matters of domestic consequence. I'm disappointed by the need to repeat myself yet again.

    You are correct @DaltonCraig007. I am completely inconsequential to this. A common pleb.

    To you I may seem obsessed. But I am seriously afraid.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I agree @DaltonCraig007.

    Ultimately, all these candidates are connecting on a visceral level with the electorate. Whether they are right or they are left, there is something that is hitting home and to the hearts and minds of those they appeal to. I think it's the straight talk approach. No nonsense, not beating about the bush, and getting to the point. Disruptive.

    The thing is, these candidates do raise important issues. Issues that are dismissed by their opponents and the media most often, rather than openly discussed and debated honestly and in a caring way. I think that is a starting point to defeating these insurgents, as you correctly noted earlier.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    @bondjames it's like the shrink in Die Hard 3 who tells Bruce Willis that the simple mention of money only further enrages Simon Gruber. Each time Trump or anyone mentions the 'banning of muslim', or the 'Mexican wall', or someone calling him a looney/moron/racist, it serves nothing but to solidify Trump's voting base, and backfires on anyone since the media and the population will take more time in discussing Trump's new soundbite instead of the opposing side's quote. Everyone is guilty, the media, the public, the politics, we're all unable of dealing with the issue without adding fuel to the fire. There's got to be a way.. but which way?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @DaltonCraig007, the only way is an honest discussion of the issues. When Trump proposes the wall, it is a proposed solution to what he cites as a problem - namely illegal immigration and importing of drugs and crime. Note that I said 'a' solution. Rather than dismiss him as a racist, the other side should discuss their proposals and solutions to stop crime by illegals, the 11m undocumented workers (unless they are telling the American population that this is a good thing), and the importing of drugs (which we all know goes on from the films we love like Sicario or Narcos etc.). There is truth to the concerns he noted - it is the solution that is in question and a calm discussion of an alternative is the way to win the argument. This is why the debates will be crucial.

    Sadly, the media is a lost cause. Bought, paid for and biased. For both sides depending on which channel you watch. Frankly, they are a disgrace.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 3,566
    You want to hear positive stuff about Hillary? The Dem. convention starts next week.

    Only about 8+ months too late. Just like the 'Remain' side of the UK referendum who realized they've been doing a woeful campaign when it was over.

    More like 20 Years in arrears. If you haven't noticed, the Republicans have been doing their level best to demonize Hillary since her husband was President. Like a frog in hot water, the American public has just gotten used to it. It stuck with some people long before this campaign ever started. How many are willing to defend Hillary from the same knee-jerk reaction you describe for Trump's supporters? How many still have their minds open and are willing to be convinced one way or the other? We'll just have to see...
This discussion has been closed.