The Next American President Thread (2016)

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Comments

  • I'll address it so no one else has to: please note that it's a clip FROM 2005

    It's not like Kaine was a teenager back than and now he is a mature man. He was already 47 back in 2005.

    And American society's re-evalutaion of gay marriage took place after 2005. So did Tim Kaine's. Better late than never. At this rate, the Republican party will accept gay Americans as being fully human...what, around 2076, just in time for the Tricentennial?

  • Groucho is always good. Have you got any Stooges clips to amuse @Mendacious4Lyfe?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    @Gustav_Graves Can you please address this one minute Tim Kaine clip?http://web.archive.org/web/20051118225131/http://www.kaine2005.org/media/radio/radio_ad_conservative_1.mp3

    How can you support a candidate who has chosen someone who is pro death penalty, anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage as her running mate?

    So what's the score on the other fella? You know, the guy running with Trump? Mike Pence?
    LGTB:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mike-pence-lgbt-vote_us_578904bee4b0867123e0f507
    Abortion:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/07/15/mike-pence-has-made-no-secret-about-his-views-on-abortion-will-this-help-or-hurt-trump/

    And of course, death penalty:
    http://chicagodefender.com/2016/07/21/3-things-you-should-know-about-mike-pence/

    Are you quite sure your conservative add tells the truth? Or have they confused the two VP candidates? I mean, of course they don't have a stake in the matter....
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 4,619
    @CommanderRoss What are you smoking? OF COURSE Pence is a conservative! He is the Republican VP nominee. What is shocking is that the Democratic VP nominee is anti-abortion, anti-same sex marriage and pro death penalty.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    @CommanderRoss What are you smoking? OF COURSE Pence is a conservative! He is the Republican VP nominee. What is shocking is that the Democratic VP nominee is anti-abortion, anti-same sex marriage and pro death penalty.
    Nice of you to ask, but I don't smoke in the office, it's not allowed, and on top of that I don't smoke at all. I drink tea.

    This is what one would call 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

    Or is this post of yours meant to support the democratic VP instead of the Trump candidacy?

    The choice is: Trump and a conservative ****
    or Hillary and a conservative ****. At least it's another factor you don't have to take into consideration when voting.

    I'm guessing @bondjames would come to the conclusion she chose him to attract conservative republicans whom are scared of Trump.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 4,619
    Michelle Obama on why you should not vote for Clinton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLm4w-z91B4
    The choice is: Trump and a conservative ****
    or Hillary and a conservative ****.

    No. Rodham Clinton and Trump are not the only people still in the race.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Michelle Obama on why you should not vote for Clinton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLm4w-z91B4
    The choice is: Trump and a conservative ****
    or Hillary and a conservative ****.

    No. Rodham Clinton and Trump are not the only people still in the race.
    That's just cheap, of course Michelle attacked Hillary, both Obama and Clinton were in the race for the nomination. So Trump now is a holy saint because he supported Hillary befo... oh wait, he's against her now isn't he?
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/donald-trump-hillary-clinton_n_1387680.html

    And of course you're right, they're not the only ones in the race. They're the only ones with a chance in the race...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Hillary is like a car crashing head on into a big tree.
    Trump is like a 747 heavy slamming into a big mountain.

    I'll take my chances in the car, thank you.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,119
    @CommanderRoss What are you smoking? OF COURSE Pence is a conservative! He is the Republican VP nominee. What is shocking is that the Democratic VP nominee is anti-abortion, anti-same sex marriage and pro death penalty.

    Your remarks are....off the scale.

    First of all, I have listened to your links. But in return, you perhaps haven't read my comments. First of all, Tim Kaine has softened a lot on his personal beliefs regarding LGBT rights. In part because of Obama's fresh progressive air that he brought back once he took office. Call it 'flipflopping', but again, on many occassions I find that a strength, and not a weakness.

    Secondly, Tim Kaine is 'Progressive Catholic'. And in many ways of perfect carbon-copy of Joe Biden. With that I mean that he's way more secular than many 'Orthodox Catholics' on the Republican side...or Mike Pence! That does make a difference.

    So while he has some -very mild- personal problems with same sex marriage, he did not reflect that when he was the Governor of Virginia and now he is US Senator for Virginia. So in 2006 as governor he campaigned against an amendment of GOP-senators from Virginia to bar same sex marriage. And in 2013 as US Senator he issued a statement that he changed his beliefs fundamentally by now supporting full same sex marriage in the entire USA.

    Overall, I simply don't get your problem. I mean, ask yourself this question: Was gay marriage introduced when a GOP-president was in office? Furthermore, as of today the Republicans are still entirely conflicted about LGBTQ-rights (from electoral-vote.com):
    The GOP's Curious Stance on LGBTQ Issues
    2016 has underscored what careful observers knew all the way back in 2012, or even 2008: The Republican Party is heading in two different directions, and seems unable to decide what kind of party it wants to be heading into the 21st century. There may be no issue where this is more clear than with the GOP's myriad positions on gay rights.

    At its convention, the Party put on a pretty gay-friendly show. Peter Thiel spoke about his sexuality, and was received warmly. Donald Trump, in his address, made a vow to protect LGBTQ citizens from acts of violence. That too was greeted with cheers, causing The Donald to smile warmly and declare, "As a Republican, I'm so happy to hear you cheering for what I just said." And yet, at the very same convention, the GOP adopted a number of anti-gay planks in its platform. The section entitled "Marriage, Family, and Society," for example, declares that the only optimal family structure is "a married mom and dad" and that any other alternative increases the likelihood of the child's becoming a dropout, a drug addict, or a criminal. The next paragraph avers that, "we do not accept the Supreme Court's redefinition of marriage," while the section entitled "Protecting Individual Conscience in Healthcare" endorses parents' right to pursue whatever therapies they want for their children (for example, gay conversion therapy).

    Now, the disconnect between what was happening on stage and what was happening with the platform committee might be reflection of Trump's views versus those of the party insiders. Except that it was Trump who chose Gov. Mike Pence (R-IN), one of the most gay-hostile politicians in the United States. In addition to signing a law that sanctioned discrimination against gay people in Indiana, he opposed the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," spoke out against not only gay marriages but also civil unions, accused gay Americans of hastening "societal collapse," and has been an enthusiastic proponent of conversion therapy.

    The upshot is that the Republican Party of 2016 is trying to have it both ways on gay rights, as it is with a host of other issues and constituencies. That's not a great short-term strategy, since you risk alienating partisans on both sides of the issue (as Pence himself learned after signing a watered-down version of the Indiana discrimination bill). And it is a completely untenable long-term strategy. (Z)

    So please, cut the crap @PanchitoPistoles. LGBTQ-rights are much safer with Democrats than with Republicans. I am gay myself, and I condemn the way the GOP blatantly removed LGBTQ-rights from their party platform. If only Trump would stood up for them.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,119
    By the way, just watched the speech from president Obama. I'm sure going to miss him. You know, I admire JFK and Ronald Reagan. And I'm starting to think that despite the huge divide between Democrats and Republicans, quite a lot of Americans are going to miss his charm, optimism, intelligence and steadiness:

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,410
    @CommanderRoss What are you smoking? OF COURSE Pence is a conservative! He is the Republican VP nominee. What is shocking is that the Democratic VP nominee is anti-abortion, anti-same sex marriage and pro death penalty.

    Your remarks are....off the scale.

    First of all, I have listened to your links. But in return, you perhaps haven't read my comments. First of all, Tim Kaine has softened a lot on his personal beliefs regarding LGBT rights. In part because of Obama's fresh progressive air that he brought back once he took office. Call it 'flipflopping', but again, on many occassions I find that a strength, and not a weakness.

    Secondly, Tim Kaine is 'Progressive Catholic'. And in many ways of perfect carbon-copy of Joe Biden. With that I mean that he's way more secular than many 'Orthodox Catholics' on the Republican side...or Mike Pence! That does make a difference.

    So while he has some -very mild- personal problems with same sex marriage, he did not reflect that when he was the Governor of Virginia and now he is US Senator for Virginia. So in 2006 as governor he campaigned against an amendment of GOP-senators from Virginia to bar same sex marriage. And in 2013 as US Senator he issued a statement that he changed his beliefs fundamentally by now supporting full same sex marriage in the entire USA.

    Overall, I simply don't get your problem. I mean, ask yourself this question: Was gay marriage introduced when a GOP-president was in office? Furthermore, as of today the Republicans are still entirely conflicted about LGBTQ-rights (from electoral-vote.com):
    The GOP's Curious Stance on LGBTQ Issues
    2016 has underscored what careful observers knew all the way back in 2012, or even 2008: The Republican Party is heading in two different directions, and seems unable to decide what kind of party it wants to be heading into the 21st century. There may be no issue where this is more clear than with the GOP's myriad positions on gay rights.

    At its convention, the Party put on a pretty gay-friendly show. Peter Thiel spoke about his sexuality, and was received warmly. Donald Trump, in his address, made a vow to protect LGBTQ citizens from acts of violence. That too was greeted with cheers, causing The Donald to smile warmly and declare, "As a Republican, I'm so happy to hear you cheering for what I just said." And yet, at the very same convention, the GOP adopted a number of anti-gay planks in its platform. The section entitled "Marriage, Family, and Society," for example, declares that the only optimal family structure is "a married mom and dad" and that any other alternative increases the likelihood of the child's becoming a dropout, a drug addict, or a criminal. The next paragraph avers that, "we do not accept the Supreme Court's redefinition of marriage," while the section entitled "Protecting Individual Conscience in Healthcare" endorses parents' right to pursue whatever therapies they want for their children (for example, gay conversion therapy).

    Now, the disconnect between what was happening on stage and what was happening with the platform committee might be reflection of Trump's views versus those of the party insiders. Except that it was Trump who chose Gov. Mike Pence (R-IN), one of the most gay-hostile politicians in the United States. In addition to signing a law that sanctioned discrimination against gay people in Indiana, he opposed the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," spoke out against not only gay marriages but also civil unions, accused gay Americans of hastening "societal collapse," and has been an enthusiastic proponent of conversion therapy.

    The upshot is that the Republican Party of 2016 is trying to have it both ways on gay rights, as it is with a host of other issues and constituencies. That's not a great short-term strategy, since you risk alienating partisans on both sides of the issue (as Pence himself learned after signing a watered-down version of the Indiana discrimination bill). And it is a completely untenable long-term strategy. (Z)

    So please, cut the crap @PanchitoPistoles. LGBTQ-rights are much safer with Democrats than with Republicans. I am gay myself, and I condemn the way the GOP blatantly removed LGBTQ-rights from their party platform. If only Trump would stood up for them.

    Of course he stands up for the LGBT community, that's part of why he wants to ban the Muslims from coming to the US. The Dems treat gay people like cattle, abusing them for political gain. Its disgusting to watch, and shouldn't be allowed. IMO, its better to just ignore them than to treat them in such a demeaning way.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,119
    @CommanderRoss What are you smoking? OF COURSE Pence is a conservative! He is the Republican VP nominee. What is shocking is that the Democratic VP nominee is anti-abortion, anti-same sex marriage and pro death penalty.

    Your remarks are....off the scale.

    First of all, I have listened to your links. But in return, you perhaps haven't read my comments. First of all, Tim Kaine has softened a lot on his personal beliefs regarding LGBT rights. In part because of Obama's fresh progressive air that he brought back once he took office. Call it 'flipflopping', but again, on many occassions I find that a strength, and not a weakness.

    Secondly, Tim Kaine is 'Progressive Catholic'. And in many ways of perfect carbon-copy of Joe Biden. With that I mean that he's way more secular than many 'Orthodox Catholics' on the Republican side...or Mike Pence! That does make a difference.

    So while he has some -very mild- personal problems with same sex marriage, he did not reflect that when he was the Governor of Virginia and now he is US Senator for Virginia. So in 2006 as governor he campaigned against an amendment of GOP-senators from Virginia to bar same sex marriage. And in 2013 as US Senator he issued a statement that he changed his beliefs fundamentally by now supporting full same sex marriage in the entire USA.

    Overall, I simply don't get your problem. I mean, ask yourself this question: Was gay marriage introduced when a GOP-president was in office? Furthermore, as of today the Republicans are still entirely conflicted about LGBTQ-rights (from electoral-vote.com):
    The GOP's Curious Stance on LGBTQ Issues
    2016 has underscored what careful observers knew all the way back in 2012, or even 2008: The Republican Party is heading in two different directions, and seems unable to decide what kind of party it wants to be heading into the 21st century. There may be no issue where this is more clear than with the GOP's myriad positions on gay rights.

    At its convention, the Party put on a pretty gay-friendly show. Peter Thiel spoke about his sexuality, and was received warmly. Donald Trump, in his address, made a vow to protect LGBTQ citizens from acts of violence. That too was greeted with cheers, causing The Donald to smile warmly and declare, "As a Republican, I'm so happy to hear you cheering for what I just said." And yet, at the very same convention, the GOP adopted a number of anti-gay planks in its platform. The section entitled "Marriage, Family, and Society," for example, declares that the only optimal family structure is "a married mom and dad" and that any other alternative increases the likelihood of the child's becoming a dropout, a drug addict, or a criminal. The next paragraph avers that, "we do not accept the Supreme Court's redefinition of marriage," while the section entitled "Protecting Individual Conscience in Healthcare" endorses parents' right to pursue whatever therapies they want for their children (for example, gay conversion therapy).

    Now, the disconnect between what was happening on stage and what was happening with the platform committee might be reflection of Trump's views versus those of the party insiders. Except that it was Trump who chose Gov. Mike Pence (R-IN), one of the most gay-hostile politicians in the United States. In addition to signing a law that sanctioned discrimination against gay people in Indiana, he opposed the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," spoke out against not only gay marriages but also civil unions, accused gay Americans of hastening "societal collapse," and has been an enthusiastic proponent of conversion therapy.

    The upshot is that the Republican Party of 2016 is trying to have it both ways on gay rights, as it is with a host of other issues and constituencies. That's not a great short-term strategy, since you risk alienating partisans on both sides of the issue (as Pence himself learned after signing a watered-down version of the Indiana discrimination bill). And it is a completely untenable long-term strategy. (Z)

    So please, cut the crap @PanchitoPistoles. LGBTQ-rights are much safer with Democrats than with Republicans. I am gay myself, and I condemn the way the GOP blatantly removed LGBTQ-rights from their party platform. If only Trump would stood up for them.

    Of course he stands up for the LGBT community, that's part of why he wants to ban the Muslims from coming to the US. The Dems treat gay people like cattle, abusing them for political gain. Its disgusting to watch, and shouldn't be allowed. IMO, its better to just ignore them than to treat them in such a demeaning way.

    The party I support in The Netherlands, D66 (Democrats 1966), was modeled after JFK's ideas as a Democrat. Some call it the natural sister party of the Democratic Party of the USA. And I tell you this, I know the people from D66 who initiated the fight for marriage equality in the 1990's in The Netherlands, when even the biggest parties at that time (Conservative Liberal Party, VVD, and the Dutch Party, PvdA), were against it! So how...how on Earth can you say that Democrats are using gays for...political gain? ExCUSE me?

    One last thing, as an assistant city-councilor in the city of Groningen I brought Muslims and gays together....in fierce, but respectful and in the end succesful debates. Because, there are also gay Muslims. Are we, am I, as a gay person....going to slam down my fellow gay buddies? NO!

    Republicans didn't fight for LGBTQ-rights. Democrats did. And now, when there's a lot of terror, I dare to say that some Republicans are actually the ones treating gays as cattle, as political gains. Because NOW they can make headlines by connecting LGBTQ-rights with terrorism. That's not fighting for LGBTQ-rights? That's what you call "treating gay people like cattle, for political gains".
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited July 2016 Posts: 8,410
    No one even knows if gays want to get married or not. From my perspective they're always out late at night partying. The married life doesn't really suit that kind of lifestyle.
  • Posts: 11,119
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Hillary is like a car crashing head on into a big tree.
    Trump is like a 747 heavy slamming into a big mountain.

    I'll take my chances in the car, thank you.

    It's a Volvo, stuffed with airbags, so you'll be safe ;-):
    7571.jpg
  • Posts: 11,119
    No one even knows if gays want to get married or not. From my perspective they're always out late at night partying. The married life doesn't really suit that kind of lifestyle.

    I am gay. I am not a party animal. I would love to marry and have kids. But I know that my mental problems will be a severe difficulty. So I can only dream. And until that dream becomes reality, we now have those LGBTQ-rights. Obviously many gays don't wish to marry, but that's absolutely besides the point. How would YOU feel if there wasn't a 'straight marriage' and you didn't have the option to marry? Think about that, before you start generalizing gay people.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,410
    No one even knows if gays want to get married or not. From my perspective they're always out late at night partying. The married life doesn't really suit that kind of lifestyle.

    I am gay. I am not a party animal. I would love to marry and have kids. But I know that my mental problems will be a severe difficulty. So I can only dream. And until that dream becomes reality, we now have those LGBTQ-rights. Obviously many gays don't wish to marry, but that's absolutely besides the point. How would YOU feel if there wasn't a 'straight marriage' and you didn't have the option to marry? Think about that, before you start generalizing gay people.

    Well, personally I think marriage is a religious ceremony. I mean, that's how it started, I think. Maybe it would be better if we just gave churches the right to refuse any couple they like, then everyone is happy. My parents were refused by a church because they already had children before they were ready to marry. They simply found another church that accepted them, problem solved.

    Secondly, I'm not generalising anyone, and being the exception to the rule isn't anything to be ashamed of. Sometimes I wish I could be dancing on tables at 2AM, but for some of us its just not on the cards. I say let them enjoy themselves, who are we to spoil the fun? A wedding ring is like an anvil to most gay men out there. I think, if you asked them, they'd probably tell you the same thing.
  • Posts: 1,631
    No one even knows if gays want to get married or not. From my perspective they're always out late at night partying. The married life doesn't really suit that kind of lifestyle.

    I am gay. I am not a party animal. I would love to marry and have kids. But I know that my mental problems will be a severe difficulty. So I can only dream. And until that dream becomes reality, we now have those LGBTQ-rights. Obviously many gays don't wish to marry, but that's absolutely besides the point. How would YOU feel if there wasn't a 'straight marriage' and you didn't have the option to marry? Think about that, before you start generalizing gay people.

    Agreed. I think that this is one of the biggest problems in any political debate, when people start generalizing any group of people. It's not productive to do so, which is probably why our politics in the US are so bad, because that's pretty much what both sides do to each other.

    With regards to marriage, given that the government has more or less taken over the institution and made it necessary for couples to have certain rights together, it's something that should be allowed for all or for none. Otherwise, as we saw with civil unions and whatever other alternatives those who couldn't marry under the law sought, you have one group of Americans who are barred from having certain basic rights that others were allowed simply because the government wouldn't allow them to participate in a sanctioned institution.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited July 2016 Posts: 17,804
    How would YOU feel if there wasn't a 'straight marriage' and you didn't have the option to marry?
    I'd have married my Wife in a non-legal ceremony then. Would have worked out to be basically the same thing. Well, mostly.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 4,619
    The Dems treat gay people like cattle, abusing them for political gain. Its disgusting to watch, and shouldn't be allowed. IMO, its better to just ignore them than to treat them in such a demeaning way.
    Exactly. If I were a gay American, I would NEVER vote for the pandering Democrats.
    How would YOU feel if there wasn't a 'straight marriage' and you didn't have the option to marry? Think about that, before you start generalizing gay people.
    I wouldn't mind at all. I firmly believe that marriage is stupid, and that states should get out of the marriage business. I am a big advocate of marriage privatization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_privatization
    Oh, the old GOP establishment! Homophobes, misogynists and people who hate the poor. You know, the fans of people like George W Bush, Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz. F them! The Republican Party used to be great (Lincoln, Roosevelt, Eisenhower). Trump is making the Republican Party great again.

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    =))
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    As long as we vote our conscience .... and keep our sense of humor. :)
  • Posts: 4,619
    My favourite Rodham Clinton video of all time:



    Even if you LOVE Hillary, you have to admit that it's genius! :bz
  • Posts: 1,296
    t's amazing the kind of posts that are allowed when people are talking about politics . :)
  • IGUANNA wrote: »
    t's amazing the kind of posts that are allowed when people are talking about politics . :)

    That's why we don't need no stinkin' Fairness Doctrine. Fairness just inhibits free speech.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @CommanderRoss What are you smoking? OF COURSE Pence is a conservative! He is the Republican VP nominee. What is shocking is that the Democratic VP nominee is anti-abortion, anti-same sex marriage and pro death penalty.
    Nice of you to ask, but I don't smoke in the office, it's not allowed, and on top of that I don't smoke at all. I drink tea.

    This is what one would call 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

    Or is this post of yours meant to support the democratic VP instead of the Trump candidacy?

    The choice is: Trump and a conservative ****
    or Hillary and a conservative ****. At least it's another factor you don't have to take into consideration when voting.

    I'm guessing @bondjames would come to the conclusion she chose him to attract conservative republicans whom are scared of Trump.
    Sorry for the delay in responding @CommanderRoss. Been tied up today. My guess (and that's all it is) is that she chose Kaine because he's qualified to be president if she croaks (he has been a mayor, a lieutenant governor, & a governor - where he balanced the state budget), because he's on the Senate Armed Services, Budget & Foreign Relations Committee, because he's been chairman of the DNC in the past (fundraising), because he's the senator from a battleground state that she must win, because they get along well enough (a crucial component) and she has good personal chemistry with him, because for some strange reason he seems to make her seem more humane to those who are suspicious of her (count me in), because he's pretty uncharismatic himself and makes her look more dynamic, & because he speaks Spanish and so could give some impressive stump speeches to those who aren't that fluent with English and yet are able to vote (I take that as pandering but some may see it as smart).

    Bottom line - he's a safe choice and that's her M.O., unlike her opponent.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Hillary is like a car crashing head on into a big tree.
    Trump is like a 747 heavy slamming into a big mountain.
    That's a reasonable analogy. Thing is, there are far more car accidents than there are catastrophic plane crashes. Furthermore, a car can only do so much and go so far, whereas a plane can really soar if handled well.

    As I said earlier, Hillary is the safe choice. She will tinker around the edges and the risk of anything failing (or succeeding radically for that matter) are slim in my view. Trump is a far riskier choice. If he succeeds, he will be transformative. If he fails, he will be catastrophic.

    Either way, even if he loses, I believe many of his proposals will be adopted by the Republican party going forward, and he will leave an indelible mark on it. The long Bush era is dead and gone. Buried. Thank goodness.

    ----
    PS: That Hillary clip above is brutally funny.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    I just read a facebook post where a guy went on a rant concerning "A vote for Jill Stein is a vote for Trump" and he said (basically):
    "Excuse me if we don't feel like wading into a river of shit. We will vote for the best candidate. That's Democracy. If the DNC wanted to win, they shouldn't have sabotaged their best bet (Bernie). Shame on you for trying to shame us into voting the way YOU want us to."

    Thoughts?
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited July 2016 Posts: 12,480
    Vote your conscience - but do look at the big picture, too. If the other candidate would be destructive to the country, and I would feel that actually a probability not a wild guess, then I would vote for the opposing side (no matter what party affiliation I have). I would put my country first. Hate that we have only two candidates? Have our system? Then work from within it, all of us, to change that. But that is the reality we are faced with.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Vote your conscience - but do look at the big picture, too. If the other candidate would be destructive to the country, and I would feel that actually a probability not a wild guess, then I would vote for the opposing side (no matter what party affiliation I have). I would put my country first. Hate that we have only two candidates? Have our system? Then work from within it, all of us, to change that. But that is the reality we are faced with.
    Okay now- WE agree here. But rationally speaking, is there not some logic to the idea that change means CHANGE? To keep voting in the corners we are shoved into is no way to change. Imagine if half of America voted Green. That would be the end of the two party system forever!*

    *obviously playing Devil's Adv


  • Posts: 1,631
    Vote your conscience - but do look at the big picture, too. If the other candidate would be destructive to the country, and I would feel that actually a probability not a wild guess, then I would vote for the opposing side (no matter what party affiliation I have). I would put my country first. Hate that we have only two candidates? Have our system? Then work from within it, all of us, to change that. But that is the reality we are faced with.

    I think we have a chance to do that with this election. The only way the third parties are going to get more recognition from the public, more influence, and thus a better chance to win in the future is to have people vote for them in the fall.

    This is an election where the third parties have a chance to make some noise, mainly Gary Johnson and the Libertarians because it seems as though they'll be the only ones other than Clinton and Trump to make the ballot in all 50 states.

    They won't win, of course, but if Johnson were to make the debates and then parlay that into some decent showings in several states (there are even polls suggesting he has a chance to outright win Utah), then we could see both Johnson and his party gain more influence moving forward, and that would be a good thing because it would lessen, even if only slightly, the grip the two major parties have on the electoral system.

This discussion has been closed.