The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • Posts: 11,119
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  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited June 2016 Posts: 8,266
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    It's interesting how those pro EU-membership claim the EU is not a dictatorship, but do claim it's a democracy. Demos means 'the people'. Cratos means 'power'. So : the power to the people. In no way do European 'Demos' have any 'Cratos' when it comes to the EU commission. You know, the ones in power.... It's an oligargy where politicians amongst themselves devide the jobs in a 'I scratch your back, you mine' kind of approach.

    That's stupid babble and repeating it doesn't make it any truer. The Commission is as a body proposed by the 28 member governments and confirmed by the European Parliament. The mere fact you haven't been asked personally beforehand regarding your opinion of it doesn't turn it into a "dictatorship". You also haven't been asked to elect secretaries of state/ministers/undersecretaries in whatever country you are from, have you?

    Spend a few days in Syria to get an idea of a dictatorship, then you will see clearer.

    Maybe you'd care to read my post again. I never claimed the EU beeing a dictatorship. I'm merely stating it isn't a democracy either. And yes, for a true democracy to work, we'd be able to vote for everyone in a political office. My country (Neltherlands) isn't a sublime democracy either, but it's a long shot more democratic then the EU.
    It's interesting how those pro EU-membership claim the EU is not a dictatorship, but do claim it's a democracy. Demos means 'the people'. Cratos means 'power'. So : the power to the people. In no way do European 'Demos' have any 'Cratos' when it comes to the EU commission. You know, the ones in power.... It's an oligargy where politicians amongst themselves devide the jobs in a 'I scratch your back, you mine' kind of approach.
    The end objective of the EU is a United States of Europe.

    That's just not true. And that idea is long gone within the EU. Yes, we do have a single Euro currency, but that's more a neo-liberal approach to capitalism. And even those neo-liberals were not in favor of a political union.


    I do have to say though, that personally the idea of a United States of Europe sounds very appealing to me. Small countries nowadays can't dictate politics in large super-nations like USA, China and Russia. That's the prime reason that the decline of the middle class and its subsequent loss in welfare and prosperity is felt much harder here on the European continent.

    I'm still surprised how many people can be so deluded that neo/ultra-nationalism is the solution to these problems. An open mindset, an international approach was the very key to the rise of the British and Dutch Empire. But those days are over for centuries. We still profit from the net result, in that we have relatively good lives. But that life is under pressure heavily.

    And even if we welcome Russia as the next world power dictating politics in Europe -and the UK-, then that still is a prime example of smaller countries not being able to manage themselves without any interference of a world power.

    Therefore a United States of Europe sounds lovely to me. If people deal with this idea in a democratic way, then it can be much more successful than the undemocratic British Empire ever was.
    You may be an educated person living an international life, but you're in an absolute minority there. The regular John Doe living on his average wage only goes camping once a year. And yes, that may be to France (like every year) but that doesn't mean he's capable of working together with those French he knows from the campsite.

    The EU is an elitist contraption with flagrant disregard for Europe as a continent, it's history and it's people. Pity, a bit more realism would've brought us a lot further.

    How....how dare you. First of all, I work and live in Spain. I am happy. But if you do want to know my net salary? Well, here you have it:

    --> Excluding 12% income taxes
    --> Excluding a meager Bonus
    --> My net income per month is: EURO 1,250! Net!
    --> And I have to work 42 hours for that!
    --> My brother, who works in Utrecht, his net income is EURO 1,000 higher!!
    --> So his net income / month is: EURO 2,250!!

    On top of that, I have to repay lots of taxes back over 2013 (EURO 1,950), because the Agencia Tributaria (Belastingdienst) is a corrupt shithole in comparison to The Netherlands! And the cost of living in Barcelona? It's slightly more expensive then Groningen...where I used to live and work.

    Secondly, I am a very well educated person yes, but I didn't manage to get my Bachelor's Degree (Hogeschool) despite an insane amount of perseverance and several psychological issues (I committed suicide two times!). I fought for it. Fought for it! But because Dutch society doesn't accept my capabilities, and lack of a diploma, I was at least fortunate that Spain needed someone with good language skills!

    I'm fighting all my life, just like the average 'John Doe' you are referring too. But in the end I have to conclude that society in Spain on the whole is at least more forgiving than many Dutchies. They understand my biggest struggles in life. And BECAUSE I am in this situation, I actually admire the European Union, for making life more easier for me to relocate! I can's save money, and I will probably have huge problems in the future with regard to a possible pension. But I'm still happy under this bright sunny Spanish sky!

    And despite all these huge struggles in my life, I keep Kennedy's motto high: Don't ask what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country. And despite all shit, I damn well know my fate, and that a lot of my struggles in life are because of my OWN PERSONALITY.

    Again, I am happy here, but your remark, that of a 'mede-Nederlander', really really disappoints me. You are judgemental. Entirely. And you keep slamming people for all the wrong reasons. You even keep slamming a fellow countryman whose personal life you don't understand at all! Shame on you.

    - never did I claim you have a high salary
    - never did I claim you haven't been fighting for recocnition, work, life, etc.

    Beeing part of an elite doesn't make you rich. Ask most artists. Still they themselves consider themselves to be on a moral highground, defending ideas (again, not talking about you), beeing part of an elite.

    And yes, it's sad to know you've tried to commit suicide twice, and I hope you'll never feel the need to do such again. It's a terrible ordeal which I've come all too close to in the past.

    All I said was, and you only underlined this, that you're part of a very small group (comperatively) of people having foreign experiences that go far farther then just going on holiday. Your life is internationally orientated (as probably of most on this forum, as many Bond fans seem inclined to travel) whereas the life of at least 80% of the people in my neighbourhood's international expierence goes no farther then campsites or all-inclusive hotels.

    @Gustav please try not to be personally attacked by any of my posts. I'm never out to make any argument personal. All I try to do is make differences understandeable.




  • Such a shame as I was with you all the way to that final faux pas.

    Doh! #-o maybe I was thinking about all the Scots & Welsh who choose England to live.

    Boarder - a person, especially a lodger, who is supplied with regular meals. ;)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117

    Such a shame as I was with you all the way to that final faux pas.

    Doh! #-o maybe I was thinking about all the Scots & Welsh who choose England to live.

    Boarder - a person, especially a lodger, who is supplied with regular meals. ;)

    Chortle. But you're still wrong. The word you're after is 'freeloaders'.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Let's set the record straight about this, this is not about being democratic or bureaucratic or what ever else people claim it to be. This is simply about the generation of Brits who grew up under the old milk snatcher. At the time she was despised by a lot of peeps who claim to love her today. But whatever you think of her, she got us a splendid deal with the EU, the Continent's tribute for freeing it from the Nazis. That was a foine deal, especially since those who profited from our British rebate the most are the generations who never served, never fought a war and who didn't do jack sh*t to earn this country the greatness they constantly claim it deserves since that's what it says in the title.

    Some of these grew up in peace and prosperity and in the misguided sense of entitlement that the world owed them these luxuries because, frankly, that's what it means to be a Brit, no? Sounds much cosier than Herrenmensch, also much easier to pronounce than these filthy German butcher terms. And for decades things were splendid and everybody was fine with them. This country was a bloody nightmare when it entered the EU. In a city it would have been the part where the rubbish collection brought the trash. But thanks to favourable circumstances it became one of the strongest economies of the EU. Within the EU. Something in that deeply undemocratic scheme must have worked right. Perhaps all those freeloaders and boarders kept their trap shut because they profited from that horrible nepotism they now bemoan?

    However, with time the EU became bigger, the UK became smaller and all of a sudden there are peeps who feel the EU is taking their "identity" away. The EU, not the dullards they voted themselves into power, not the shi**y television program, not their 24/7 clinging to their mobiles and touchscreens. No, it's the EU, of course. They claim that Britain is no longer "Great" and fail to see how every generation has to earn themselves that attribute again. Or be content with what it gets. And frankly, I despise these cissy whiners because that's exactly what they are. This is not about being patriotic, about loving your country. This is mostly about nationalism, about hating the countries of others, hoping in time they will feel as miserable about theirs as we do about ours. In other words, this is what spoilt brats get up to when they don't get what they insist they need. This is one nation unable to compromise, unable to adapt. Unable to deal with reality, so we do the next best thing and throw a tantrum.

    And once we really deal ourselves out of the EU our next big project will be to find another scapegoat. Hopefully the Germans, some already can't wait going the whole distance with them. But hey, the Scots (that would be me) could also be blamed, couldn't they?



  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Once the TTIP is in place, the EU won t matter after all.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Exactly. Why I'm hesitant to vote in, frankly.

    *Then again if I vote out, the UK gov probs will go ahead with TTIP after all.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Let's set the record straight about this, this is not about being democratic or bureaucratic or what ever else people claim it to be. This is simply about the generation of Brits who grew up under the old milk snatcher. At the time she was despised by a lot of peeps who claim to love her today. But whatever you think of her, she got us a splendid deal with the EU, the Continent's tribute for freeing it from the Nazis. That was a foine deal, especially since those who profited from our British rebate the most are the generations who never served, never fought a war and who didn't do jack sh*t to earn this country the greatness they constantly claim it deserves since that's what it says in the title.

    Some of these grew up in peace and prosperity and in the misguided sense of entitlement that the world owed them these luxuries because, frankly, that's what it means to be a Brit, no? Sounds much cosier than Herrenmensch, also much easier to pronounce than these filthy German butcher terms. And for decades things were splendid and everybody was fine with them. This country was a bloody nightmare when it entered the EU. In a city it would have been the part where the rubbish collection brought the trash. But thanks to favourable circumstances it became one of the strongest economies of the EU. Within the EU. Something in that deeply undemocratic scheme must have worked right. Perhaps all those freeloaders and boarders kept their trap shut because they profited from that horrible nepotism they now bemoan?

    However, with time the EU became bigger, the UK became smaller and all of a sudden there are peeps who feel the EU is taking their "identity" away. The EU, not the dullards they voted themselves into power, not the shi**y television program, not their 24/7 clinging to their mobiles and touchscreens. No, it's the EU, of course. They claim that Britain is no longer "Great" and fail to see how every generation has to earn themselves that attribute again. Or be content with what it gets. And frankly, I despise these cissy whiners because that's exactly what they are. This is not about being patriotic, about loving your country. This is mostly about nationalism, about hating the countries of others, hoping in time they will feel as miserable about theirs as we do about ours. In other words, this is what spoilt brats get up to when they don't get what they insist they need. This is one nation unable to compromise, unable to adapt. Unable to deal with reality, so we do the next best thing and throw a tantrum.

    And once we really deal ourselves out of the EU our next big project will be to find another scapegoat. Hopefully the Germans, some already can't wait going the whole distance with them. But hey, the Scots (that would be me) could also be blamed, couldn't they?



    Lovely stuff. I did enjoy that.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    edited June 2016 Posts: 299
    I thought you would. Let it slide gently down your tummy.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    Well, I must say this is quite a good article, from Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad. It starts reassuring us about a possible Brexit, and that in fact it isn't such a bad idea. Albeit in a different way (I translated the article into English):
    http://www.nrc.nl/next/2016/06/13/brexit-een-zegen-voor-de-eu-1627684
    BREXIT, A BLESSING FOR THE EUROPEAN UNION
    With a British leave from the European Union we get rid of the most irritating schoolboy of our class

    Do you have to be a Brexit-supporter if you are pro-European-Union? The big fear in Europe is that a successful British withdrawal will strengthen the credibility of anti-European politicians - particularly in the Netherlands, Germany and France - in such a way that they unravel the European Union like domino stones through a series of referendums. This is certainly not an unthinkable scenario, but the key word here is "success"! This can only happen if we, after being so incredibly naïve or generous towards the UK, let the British only profit from the advantages of the EU and not the disadvantages. Yes, if that's the case every country wants to leave an entity.
    By: Marnix Amand


    But if we don't do that and if we position ourselves firm and ruthless against the United Kingdom, than a Brexit can be a blessing for European integration. We can easily afford such an attitude. German secretary of financial affairs, Mr Schauble, was already hinting at that. Many large companies in Britain, and nearly the entire financial sector, aren't specifically British, but are located there because of the language, the liberal attitude and the easy access to the European market. Banks like Goldman Sachs and HSBC will not hesitate to relocate their banks from London to the European continent if this means the only way to maintain access to the European market. Without a trade treaty, Britain, and especially London, will effectively loose a large part of its attractiveness - and with it its wealth and prosperity.


    This means that with possible post-Brexit negotiations the EU holds the trump card. The European Union can more easily demand and uphold the European standards in the United Kingdom, and that the borders remain open and that even cash contribution are required if and when the UK wants to negotiate another trade treaty. By the way, did you know that Norway and Switzerland 'voluntary' pay a contribution to the European budget and applies all all European standards, without any consultation towards their citizens? The fact is, there is no other option for Switzerland and Norway, in order to gain access to the European market. Anyway, if the UK wants a trade agreement after a possible Brexit, then only if the British submit to all European regulations and continue to 'pay a price', to contribute substantially to the EU budget, just like Norway and Switzerland do. This rigorous stringency is necessary 'pour encourager les autres'. That's because Europe is facing major existential issues: climate change, immigration, Russia, even the very existence of freedom and democracy.
    1306opibrexitcountdown.jpg


    At the national level, we are all, even the large member states, powerless because we are simply too small in comparison to China and Russia; Further integration is inevitable if we want Europe to have, no, to regain some power and influence in the world. And it's five to twelve, we can not waste time or energy to this sterile daydream of an ultra-nationalist introverted confinement. Brexit provides a good opportunity to clarify this in Europe and to the British: If you, as a European country want to leave the Union, then you won't become independent, but instead you will become a vassal, a lapdog. Just turn the Brexit into a specter and then forever remove the sting out of the anti-European sentiment. And then we can finally move forward. Yes, without our "best ally in the Union". Which is utterly nonsense really. Once our ideas about a shared market were -indeed- alligned, but now it's consistently the UK, which is resisting every joint solution in Brussels.


    When did Britain meet some of our country's [Netherlands] demands when it did not follow suit the British politicians in London? What help did it provide us [Netherlands] during the Euro crisis? None. So it's nice that we get rid of this one-way traffic. With a Brexit we get rid of the most irritating and bullying schoolboy of our class, so that we can finally settle some serious problems inside Europe. And, last but not least, we oblige the United Kingdom to a possible future Norway-esque trade treaty. And we do it with a nasty smile. A more 'British' solution you can't get.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Rather like a dumped, boyfriend saying he's not bover'd :))
    He sounds a bit peeved.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Rather like a dumped, boyfriend saying he's not bover'd :))
    He sounds a bit peeved.

    What do you mean?
  • @Campbell2 you say some truths, I believe the western world on the whole has become indifferent to politics, they've stopped questioning authority, the politics of fear that has been preached & used to manipulate the masses since 9/11 has degraded peoples self esteem & confidence, there are so many more who I can only descibe as shallow individuals, more interested in Trash TV & so called celebrity than real issues.

    I myself at heart are part devils advocate, part anarchist, I believe in swift none violent revolution over laborious insipid evolution, sometimes you have to create instability in order to change the established view & bring about reform, that's why I'm voting out.

    One thing I would add is that all the so called expert opinion from the doomsayers of banking & commerce world who are predicting economic armageddon with BREXIT are the same people who missed the 2008 crash, who said there couldn't be a collapse in the property market & it was totally sound, just a thought, but would you trust their judgement?
  • Posts: 11,119
    @Campbell2 you say some truths, I believe the western world on the whole has become indifferent to politics, they've stopped questioning authority, the politics of fear that has been preached & used to manipulate the masses since 9/11 has degraded peoples self esteem & confidence, there are so many more who I can only descibe as shallow individuals, more interested in Trash TV & so called celebrity than real issues.

    I myself at heart are part devils advocate, part anarchist, I believe in swift none violent revolution over laborious insipid evolution, sometimes you have to create instability in order to change the established view & bring about reform, that's why I'm voting out.

    One thing I would add is that all the so called expert opinion from the doomsayers of banking & commerce world who are predicting economic armageddon with BREXIT are the same people who missed the 2008 crash, who said there couldn't be a collapse in the property market & it was totally sound, just a thought, but would you trust their judgement?

    I think there is a difference. I am not a doomsayer. I always thought, realistically, that a Brexit could happen. But a referendum is not the same as how banks in 2008 squandered the money of the ordinary person. That crisis was happening too, but back in 2008 there wasn't one voting moment in which people could vote for "Bankruptcy of Banks? Yes or No".

    I live in a democracy. And I am not a doomsayer. I also warned for the banking crisis in 2008. And that governments need to control the banks much better. But in an equal fashion I do have every right to warn for a Brexit. Not because I want to put fear into people, but because of some realistic facts.

    For the rest of your post, I do, finally, agree with you.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Rather like a dumped, boyfriend saying he's not bover'd :))
    He sounds a bit peeved.

    Indeed.

    Threatening us with ending up like Norway or Sweden or stay in the club and you could be like Greece or Ireland.

    Hardly convincing.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Rather like a dumped, boyfriend saying he's not bover'd :))
    He sounds a bit peeved.

    Indeed.

    Threatening us with ending up like Norway or Sweden or stay in the club and you could be like Greece or Ireland.

    Hardly convincing.

    What do you mean? Don't you think that pro-EU people should properly prepare for a Brexit? And get used to the fact that Brexit will happen? Because that's what taking place. Nothing to do with fear. It's all about what non-UK citizens, who support a Brexit, should and must do. Or do you think the rest of Europe stands by and watch the consequences like a fearful child? Open up your eyes man.
  • GG have you seen the movie 'The Big Short', it explains in a very entertaining way what really happened in 2008 & do you know what, it's still happening, nothing has changed despite the money spent by all our governments (Read, Tax Payers) to bail out the finance industry. Capitalism or the Market is still on the brink, this, I see, is because the whole world economy is based on the illusion of value, there is no tangible marker of true value anymore which allows companies & to a certain extent governments to make it up as they go along, it's funny but in Goldfinger they discuss the gold standard, unfortunately Tricky Dicky (Richard Nixon) took America & hence the world off that standard in 1969 which is when I believe it all started to go wrong, they can't change this as a lot of the world governments have sold their gold reserve. Just a thought but is capitalism really sustainable under it's present guise, can the world economy grow indefinitely or is it all just made up?
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299

    Well, I must say this is quite a good article, from Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad. It starts reassuring us about a possible Brexit, and that in fact it isn't such a bad idea. Albeit in a different way (I translated the article into English):
    http://www.nrc.nl/next/2016/06/13/brexit-een-zegen-voor-de-eu-1627684
    BREXIT, A BLESSING FOR THE EUROPEAN UNION
    With a British leave from the European Union we get rid of the most irritating schoolboy of our class

    Do you have to be a Brexit-supporter if you are pro-European-Union? The big fear in Europe is that a successful British withdrawal will strengthen the credibility of anti-European politicians - particularly in the Netherlands, Germany and France - in such a way that they unravel the European Union like domino stones through a series of referendums. This is certainly not an unthinkable scenario, but the key word here is "success"! This can only happen if we, after being so incredibly naïve or generous towards the UK, let the British only profit from the advantages of the EU and not the disadvantages. Yes, if that's the case every country wants to leave an entity.
    By: Marnix Amand


    But if we don't do that and if we position ourselves firm and ruthless against the United Kingdom, than a Brexit can be a blessing for European integration. We can easily afford such an attitude. German secretary of financial affairs, Mr Schauble, was already hinting at that. Many large companies in Britain, and nearly the entire financial sector, aren't specifically British, but are located there because of the language, the liberal attitude and the easy access to the European market. Banks like Goldman Sachs and HSBC will not hesitate to relocate their banks from London to the European continent if this means the only way to maintain access to the European market. Without a trade treaty, Britain, and especially London, will effectively loose a large part of its attractiveness - and with it its wealth and prosperity.


    This means that with possible post-Brexit negotiations the EU holds the trump card. The European Union can more easily demand and uphold the European standards in the United Kingdom, and that the borders remain open and that even cash contribution are required if and when the UK wants to negotiate another trade treaty. By the way, did you know that Norway and Switzerland 'voluntary' pay a contribution to the European budget and applies all all European standards, without any consultation towards their citizens? The fact is, there is no other option for Switzerland and Norway, in order to gain access to the European market. Anyway, if the UK wants a trade agreement after a possible Brexit, then only if the British submit to all European regulations and continue to 'pay a price', to contribute substantially to the EU budget, just like Norway and Switzerland do. This rigorous stringency is necessary 'pour encourager les autres'. That's because Europe is facing major existential issues: climate change, immigration, Russia, even the very existence of freedom and democracy.
    1306opibrexitcountdown.jpg


    At the national level, we are all, even the large member states, powerless because we are simply too small in comparison to China and Russia; Further integration is inevitable if we want Europe to have, no, to regain some power and influence in the world. And it's five to twelve, we can not waste time or energy to this sterile daydream of an ultra-nationalist introverted confinement. Brexit provides a good opportunity to clarify this in Europe and to the British: If you, as a European country want to leave the Union, then you won't become independent, but instead you will become a vassal, a lapdog. Just turn the Brexit into a specter and then forever remove the sting out of the anti-European sentiment. And then we can finally move forward. Yes, without our "best ally in the Union". Which is utterly nonsense really. Once our ideas about a shared market were -indeed- alligned, but now it's consistently the UK, which is resisting every joint solution in Brussels.


    When did Britain meet some of our country's [Netherlands] demands when it did not follow suit the British politicians in London? What help did it provide us [Netherlands] during the Euro crisis? None. So it's nice that we get rid of this one-way traffic. With a Brexit we get rid of the most irritating and bullying schoolboy of our class, so that we can finally settle some serious problems inside Europe. And, last but not least, we oblige the United Kingdom to a possible future Norway-esque trade treaty. And we do it with a nasty smile. A more 'British' solution you can't get.

    This is quite close to the truth. The problem with the Brexiter's plan to opt out and then gain access through the backdoor is: the remaining 27 states will not give a s**t about making concessions to the UK. There are maybe the German's who have a distant interest in a future with Britain rather than without. Mainly because of their investments here and because they ignore how bats**t rabid nationalists still keep Germany as their favourite enemy. But apart from them nobody else will much care. Especially Poland already hopes for major investments in a future without the UK. And they aren't alone.

    @SpectreNumberTwo: Perfectly understandable that profound frustration leads to a desire for fundamental change. Nobody claims the way things are run now would be the best way imaginable, by far not. Only in our case it's millions of people who will, for better or worse, be affected by it. Some doubtlessly for the better. But just as sure there is a huge number who will pay the bill for it. Not a single Brexiter believes they have to face nasty consequences of their move, they all are fairly sure to profit from it. Which is all most of them care for: how they personally can gain from it. A movement largely made up of profiteers set on selling short and happily waiting for the government to bail them out if their bet doesn't come off. With those the reasoning comes down to 'let's get out while we can, just to spite the others.' Hardly a solid basis for any kind of decision, least of all in politics.

    Of course there are also righteously concerned voices, people like you who are not happy with what's going on for the last twenty years or so. But I wager most of us will not find a future outside the EU more to our liking. And our ability to influence politics and affairs cut down even further. Not desirable in my book.

  • To be 100% honest, I think which ever way the vote goes we are all going to get F**cked in the short & the long term, was it ever so. >:)
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Yep, sensible assumption.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    To be 100% honest, I think which ever way the vote goes we are all going to get F**cked in the short & the long term, was it ever so. >:)

    In a nutshell.

    That's the bitter truth none of us want to accept. Brexit or not Europe has had its day in the sun. All this Brexit squabbling is fiddling while Rome burns.

    In 50 years we'll all be glad of a job working in sweatshops making phones and trainers for affluent Chinese.
  • Posts: 233
    Rather like a dumped, boyfriend saying he's not bover'd :))
    He sounds a bit peeved.

    Indeed.

    Threatening us with ending up like Norway or Sweden or stay in the club and you could be like Greece or Ireland.

    Hardly convincing.

    I'm sorry mate but I have to counter you on this Norway point. Are you saying that you'd rather we were paying membership fees to the EU AND accepting free movement of people, without any say in how these policies were formed or implemented? Norway have even less control over their borders than us.
  • Glad I'll be dead or totally Ga Ga in 50 years time :D
  • Posts: 1,314
    In, with amendments to our Membership

    I don't want to be isolated on the edge of the continent with things like Isis, Putin, trump etc running amok. I want international friendship and solidarity rather than selfishness and self interest

    We have become complacent about peace in Europe. We are enjoying the longest period of relative cooperation in Western Europe in centuries. There's a reason for that.

    Anyone who can look at Farage, Gove and Boris and see anything other than megalomania, greed, privilege and idiocy has my sympathy.

    I don't
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    How are the amendments going ? Any big changes coming ?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Rather like a dumped, boyfriend saying he's not bover'd :))
    He sounds a bit peeved.

    Indeed.

    Threatening us with ending up like Norway or Sweden or stay in the club and you could be like Greece or Ireland.

    Hardly convincing.

    I'm sorry mate but I have to counter you on this Norway point. Are you saying that you'd rather we were paying membership fees to the EU AND accepting free movement of people, without any say in how these policies were formed or implemented? Norway have even less control over their borders than us.

    Not at all.

    Just that Norway and Sweden seem to be coping reasonably well with the extra levies they are forced to pay to the EU for trade whilst half the lucky members of the club are bankrupt. Go figure.

    I agree the whole situation is far from ideal but given the choice is sitting pathetically by and doing as we're told in a club that thinks of us as 'the most irritating schoolboy in the class' what else is there to do?

    Give me a third option where we stay in but the EU is reformed and I might vote for it.

    Despite what you might think I'm not ecstatic about voting leave.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Well, I must say this is quite a good article, from Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad. It starts reassuring us about a possible Brexit, and that in fact it isn't such a bad idea. Albeit in a different way (I translated the article into English):
    http://www.nrc.nl/next/2016/06/13/brexit-een-zegen-voor-de-eu-1627684
    BREXIT, A BLESSING FOR THE EUROPEAN UNION
    With a British leave from the European Union we get rid of the most irritating schoolboy of our class

    Do you have to be a Brexit-supporter if you are pro-European-Union? The big fear in Europe is that a successful British withdrawal will strengthen the credibility of anti-European politicians - particularly in the Netherlands, Germany and France - in such a way that they unravel the European Union like domino stones through a series of referendums. This is certainly not an unthinkable scenario, but the key word here is "success"! This can only happen if we, after being so incredibly naïve or generous towards the UK, let the British only profit from the advantages of the EU and not the disadvantages. Yes, if that's the case every country wants to leave an entity.
    By: Marnix Amand


    But if we don't do that and if we position ourselves firm and ruthless against the United Kingdom, than a Brexit can be a blessing for European integration. We can easily afford such an attitude. German secretary of financial affairs, Mr Schauble, was already hinting at that. Many large companies in Britain, and nearly the entire financial sector, aren't specifically British, but are located there because of the language, the liberal attitude and the easy access to the European market. Banks like Goldman Sachs and HSBC will not hesitate to relocate their banks from London to the European continent if this means the only way to maintain access to the European market. Without a trade treaty, Britain, and especially London, will effectively loose a large part of its attractiveness - and with it its wealth and prosperity.


    This means that with possible post-Brexit negotiations the EU holds the trump card. The European Union can more easily demand and uphold the European standards in the United Kingdom, and that the borders remain open and that even cash contribution are required if and when the UK wants to negotiate another trade treaty. By the way, did you know that Norway and Switzerland 'voluntary' pay a contribution to the European budget and applies all all European standards, without any consultation towards their citizens? The fact is, there is no other option for Switzerland and Norway, in order to gain access to the European market. Anyway, if the UK wants a trade agreement after a possible Brexit, then only if the British submit to all European regulations and continue to 'pay a price', to contribute substantially to the EU budget, just like Norway and Switzerland do. This rigorous stringency is necessary 'pour encourager les autres'. That's because Europe is facing major existential issues: climate change, immigration, Russia, even the very existence of freedom and democracy.
    1306opibrexitcountdown.jpg


    At the national level, we are all, even the large member states, powerless because we are simply too small in comparison to China and Russia; Further integration is inevitable if we want Europe to have, no, to regain some power and influence in the world. And it's five to twelve, we can not waste time or energy to this sterile daydream of an ultra-nationalist introverted confinement. Brexit provides a good opportunity to clarify this in Europe and to the British: If you, as a European country want to leave the Union, then you won't become independent, but instead you will become a vassal, a lapdog. Just turn the Brexit into a specter and then forever remove the sting out of the anti-European sentiment. And then we can finally move forward. Yes, without our "best ally in the Union". Which is utterly nonsense really. Once our ideas about a shared market were -indeed- alligned, but now it's consistently the UK, which is resisting every joint solution in Brussels.


    When did Britain meet some of our country's [Netherlands] demands when it did not follow suit the British politicians in London? What help did it provide us [Netherlands] during the Euro crisis? None. So it's nice that we get rid of this one-way traffic. With a Brexit we get rid of the most irritating and bullying schoolboy of our class, so that we can finally settle some serious problems inside Europe. And, last but not least, we oblige the United Kingdom to a possible future Norway-esque trade treaty. And we do it with a nasty smile. A more 'British' solution you can't get.

    This is quite close to the truth. The problem with the Brexiter's plan to opt out and then gain access through the backdoor is: the remaining 27 states will not give a s**t about making concessions to the UK. There are maybe the German's who have a distant interest in a future with Britain rather than without. Mainly because of their investments here and because they ignore how bats**t rabid nationalists still keep Germany as their favourite enemy. But apart from them nobody else will much care. Especially Poland already hopes for major investments in a future without the UK. And they aren't alone.

    @SpectreNumberTwo: Perfectly understandable that profound frustration leads to a desire for fundamental change. Nobody claims the way things are run now would be the best way imaginable, by far not. Only in our case it's millions of people who will, for better or worse, be affected by it. Some doubtlessly for the better. But just as sure there is a huge number who will pay the bill for it. Not a single Brexiter believes they have to face nasty consequences of their move, they all are fairly sure to profit from it. Which is all most of them care for: how they personally can gain from it. A movement largely made up of profiteers set on selling short and happily waiting for the government to bail them out if their bet doesn't come off. With those the reasoning comes down to 'let's get out while we can, just to spite the others.' Hardly a solid basis for any kind of decision, least of all in politics.

    Of course there are also righteously concerned voices, people like you who are not happy with what's going on for the last twenty years or so. But I wager most of us will not find a future outside the EU more to our liking. And our ability to influence politics and affairs cut down even further. Not desirable in my book.

    Thanks for bringing in some valid arguments @Campbell2. Then I do have a question for you. Do you think it's understandable that there are now also people outside the UK who support a Brexit with an anti-UK mindset? Those who think that the remainder of the member states should fully grab any positive potential that comes from a Brexit that massively favors the EU? I mean, don't you think this is logical? And do you also think that, if Brexit happens next week, that the EU might actually show 'balls' and waving away any offer from the UK for a Norway-like trade deal?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    It all sounds very childish, "if you leave our club, we're not going to be nice to you !" . :D
    Makes you wonder, the standard of political thinking running the EU, if that's the
    Standard of schoolgirl bitchiness that passes for considered debate.
  • Posts: 11,119
    It all sounds very childish, "if you leave our club, we're not going to be nice to you !" . :D
    Makes you wonder, the standard of political thinking running the EU, if that's the
    Standard of schoolgirl bitchiness that passes for considered debate.

    It's not about being nice to the UK. A 'considerate debate' was destroyed already by the very UK itself. Say whatever you want to say. Use belittling words. Let's see what happens.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    The UK is having a referendum, having a debate, democracy at work ?
    Who could be against, the people having a discussion and then a vote ?
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