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Comments
Quasi Soviet Union? What are you on?
Every living past and present British Prime Minister says it would be incredibly stupid to leave the EU. But that's because they're actually all idiots and don't know what they're talking about, right...?
The UK has the most opt outs of any EU member state and Cameron has now secured us an opt out from ever closer union as well. You need to see beyond the idiotic scaremongering of the Brexit campaign and look at the facts. The UK has incredibly good membership terms of the EU. For decades the UK has led the debate on the future shape of the EU - in most critical areas it reflects exactly what we have wanted to get out of it. Free markets (for which standardised regulations are essential) and the expansion of democracy to Eastern Europe were all driven by the EU thanks to British leadership.
Why leave something that we have spent decades helping construct and which (although like every institution it has problems) largely serves our interests well?
You still haven't actually given a good reason for leaving. What do you actually think will be achieved by Brexit?
That would be enough for you to be against it ? :D
what are you going on about? Want to actually discuss some facts rather than posting gibberish?
Abuse ! Sad really. :(
And in terms of 'abuse' are you really that thin skinned?
Generation snowflake - desperate to take offence all the time. Very sad.
I wasn't aware ISIL had weighed into the debate? But Trump and ISIL on the same side is no less risible than Cameron happily sharing a platform with the greens and Sadiq Khan the other week.
A vast bureaucracy which interferes in every aspect of people's lives whilst keeping its members snout's in the trough? Sounds not dissimilar to Soviet times to me.
'Look beyond the idiotic scaremongering of the Brexit campaign and look at the facts'!
A bit rich given the entire Remain campaign is based on scaremongering - house prices will go down, jobs will be lost etc. Where are their facts?
I'd welcome some proven facts of what will happen but all there is from both sides is speculation. So the question is do you stick with Cameron and his pathetic deal brokering to funnel money into Eurocrats pockets or do you twist?
What do I hope to acheive with Brexit? If it stops us paying to ferry the self serving European Parliament to Strasbourg and back once a month just to vote that will do for me. No clearer example of what a Kafka-esque farce the whole thing is.
Hate will always be answered by hate.
There is the old experiment, that if you ask someone to describe the person they hate. If
You list what they say, you'll find they have described themselves.
I.e clueless and flailing around for others to blame? That is the trap the west is now falling into.
Our enemies - like Putin and ISIL - wnat nothing more than to see the institutions we've built since WW2 disintegrate. They will see Brexit as the first step in breaking down the western alliance and wreaking havoc amongst former allies.
As with the US response to 9/11, by voting for Brexit we would be Doing exactly what our enemies want.
Both sides have made some excellent arguments over the past few pages. The final truth will likely be somewhere in the middle, as is normally the case.
Let's keep our humour lads. The sun will continue to shine and the world won't come to an end.
appears. So given how sick of politicians many people are. I think many will vote for him
thinking they're giving the politucal class a kicking.
I think they're wrong, but Trump is playing up to the dislike and mistrust of politicians .
Martin Luther King.
What does Digby have to say?
Sorry but the Soviet Union thing simply makes no sense to me. It's like saying Trump is a Nazi. It's just daft. There are nutters in the States who make the same arguments about the Federal government being a communist plot. Believe it if you want but your placing yourself far out in the wacky conspiracy-O - sphere if you sincerely think the EU has anything substantially in common with the Soviet Union (a country the EU was partly set up to resist).
The EU provides standardised guidelines and regulations that allow a single market to function. The U.S. has the same. You need them if you want to be able to sell (say) a Land Rover across 28 different countries without having to meet seperate emissions and safety standards in every different market. It is all incredibly boring but absolutely essential for a single market to function. And the rules and regs will continue to exist and the UK will still have to comply with them even if we leave. Btw, many of these regs are built on British Standards.
In terms of the EU interfering in 'every aspect' of people lives, what precisely are you talking about? Examples? Evidence?
In terms of Strasbourg I totally agree - utter madness. But not a good enough reason for putting our economy at risk and throwing away decades of influence building and wrecking our strategic role in the world's largest trading block.
Some common sense spoken finally. Ultimately who gives a shit about the pointless, self serving suits of the EU when there's an international football tournament on?
It's summer we shouldn't be bogged down with all this tediousness. Sit back crack open a beer (in moderation Russian and English fans please!) and cheer on plucky Iceland to give Ronaldo a bloody nose tonight.
Vive le foot et encule l'EU!
That's BS of the highest degree! You'd miss the money from tourism would you not? Money is also, of course, the main reason why the EU wants the UK to remain part of its club of nations.
Moreover, when the EU ignored the Greek referendum (twice, if you count the Papandreou debacle of 2011), they basically showed their true colours & lost credibility.
I don't have a problem with a single common market or standardized trading rules. I am firmly of the belief that the single currency cannot be sustained (outside of a few powerful nations) however and that there will eventually have to be another currency (even if it is IMF SDR) before the European project can get back on track. The world financial system is increasingly volatile, and that will put more tension on the Euro in years to come & expose its structural flaws.
Thing is, this just isn't true. If it were you wouldn't be selling those Land Rovers to China. And anyway, it isn't too hard for a non-European country to demand the same standards as the EU without becoming a member.
The whole 'economy will crash' argument doesn't make sense. Of course the big, no I should say huge companies prefer to deal with only one government, as it saves them lobbyists money.
Two countries not part of the EU have the strongest economies of the continent: Norway ans Switserland.
We've discussed the EU interference in every aspect of life before here, but I'll give you one example: because of the Greek debt crisis VAT in the Netherlands went up from 19 to 21%. that's every day life for you.
Go and check how many different commisions the EU has, which make specific rules for those areas. It's a bureaucratic monster stuck away in an ivory tower, far away from the people it's supposed to govern. There has been no benefit. The best they end up doing is shoddy deals with half-arsed dictators like Erdogan who manage to extort the EU while making money from the source of the problems (ISIS).
Also, the 'we need one huge block to be competitive with other big blocks' is not true. First off, as soon as China (1.2 billion people) and India (1.1) gather steam, we have little to compare. The EU has 508 million. But we don't need to. Singapore is doing fine, Israel is doing quite well (economically), etc. etc. No 'power blocks' there. In the future, power blocks turn out to be a 20th century fantasy. We are creating a network society, we don't need political elites on that level.
eg. Canada/US have a trade agreement, and the Canadian $ can still depreciate vs the US $, and has done so due to a loss of competitiveness. The US is Canada's largest trading partner.
Exactly. So by introducing the Euro the EU actually killed it's own kids. If labour in those weaker countries is valued the same way as it is in a far more productive environment (Northern Europe) it will lose out. A Greek bankruptcy and leaving the EU would've been far better for their economy then beeing 'saved'by new loans to pay off the old ones. Funny how parents stop kids from doing so, but the same principle is 'good' on such a high level.
Some sense in that. Although I don't think there is anything about our EU membership that prevents us recruiting from outside the EU - those restrictions come entirely from our own UK immigration policies.
And yet Germany exports far more to India and China than we do - and last time I checked Germany was a member of the EU. France is also very outward looking and has some of the most successful global firms in the world. VINCI for example is the world's largest contractor. The UK is making excuses for its failings and blaming the EU. If we left we'd soon realise that Brexit is no instant panacea for our decades of underinvestment in science and research.
My point about standardised regulations is totally true. Not sure what the regs in China are but you can be sure Land Rover has to comply with them. Because China is a huge market in itself, then it's profitable and relatively easy to comply.
The EU played a lead role in imposing sanctions on Iran and Russia - in no small part due to British leadership.
It's a unique entity, construction, that we 'all' built from the ground up back in the 1940's. You call it a 'monster' that needs to be destroyed entirely, I call it an entity that we need to change into a more efficient, less bureaucratic and more democratic entity. And you are asking for the impossible with your flawed comparisons, like Erdogan. You just don't get the complexity of the immigration politics. In an ideal world, an ideal European Union, we could have been much more effective at stopping immigrants. But you don't want it, and therefore you continue slamming the EU for having difficulty to make treaties with Erdogan.
Your comparisons with Israel and Singapore are IMO also flawed. Those countries are basically ruled on undemocratic executive orders or flawed oligarchic and neo-religious behavior. And in fact, Israel isn't doing very well economically. Tons of their budget are squandered through unnecessary defense tactics that only keep the nation alive in an artificial way.
Your call for destruction of the EU is entirely right-wing populist. You don't even consider more nuanced and effective changes for the current EU. But then again, if one votes PVV that will never happen. They only ask for the destruction of the EU and never give more nuanced solutions to very complex problems. You can turn complex problems into populist marketing slogans that your people eat like chocolate. But I am searching for politicians who have the guts to explain difficult solutions into clear and understandable measures. We won't get that from ultra-left-wing populists and ultra-right-wing-populists.
Regarding Germany's exports - keep in mind that the Euro has benefited Germany more than any other country, because the single currency is actually lower (on a trade weighted basis) than what the Deutsche Mark would have been on its own. The uncompetitive nations within the EU act as an automatic depreciator of the Euro, and that benefits Germany and its exporters more than any other nation. That's not to say they don't deserve their success, but there is a 'lending hand' as it were, as well.