The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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Comments

  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    Well if Putin, Boris, ISIL, Marine Le Pen and Trump think Brexit is a good idea, it must be.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    Just one tip for everyone, if you have any financial products relating to bonds/stocks I would advise that you cash them & get your money into a safe account as if BREXIT does happen then there will be a world wide impact on the markets maybe at the levels seen in 2008. Looks like smart money is moving into Gold.

    Maybe Boris and Farage have a cunning ruse to blow up Fort Knox so the value of the UK's gold goes up, I conservatively estimate 10 times?

    Oh no that's right we haven't got any gold because financial genius Gordon Brown flogged it all off to cover up some holes in his spending. Yet this is one of the clowns saying 'I'm an ex PM so listen to me I know what I'm talking about.'

    Truth is no one can be sure but for every person on the leave side who comes across as a buffoon or charlatan there is someone on the remain side who is equally clueless. The only difference is they have proven their ineptitude in office.
    You see, from my view point, I believe that if we leave there will be no block negotiation as this will take years given the EU's record on expediency, I think both France & Germany can't wait that long & for the sake of their own economies will bypass the EU & make separate deals. At this point the light bulb may come on regarding the Bureaucracy & inequality within the EU, a system that is so fundamentally flawed it has had it's day, hopefully we will see the whole experiment begin to unravel. Then maybe we can get back to the original idea of a single trading market, not a governing body.

    And to try and get back to this is what we want to achieve. Yes it is a risk. But better to go for it than just sit by saying 'let's not rock the boat' like the remainers and just sleepwalk into an EU superstate which would become a quasi Soviet Union just with less passport checks.

    Quasi Soviet Union? What are you on?

    Every living past and present British Prime Minister says it would be incredibly stupid to leave the EU. But that's because they're actually all idiots and don't know what they're talking about, right...?

    The UK has the most opt outs of any EU member state and Cameron has now secured us an opt out from ever closer union as well. You need to see beyond the idiotic scaremongering of the Brexit campaign and look at the facts. The UK has incredibly good membership terms of the EU. For decades the UK has led the debate on the future shape of the EU - in most critical areas it reflects exactly what we have wanted to get out of it. Free markets (for which standardised regulations are essential) and the expansion of democracy to Eastern Europe were all driven by the EU thanks to British leadership.

    Why leave something that we have spent decades helping construct and which (although like every institution it has problems) largely serves our interests well?

    You still haven't actually given a good reason for leaving. What do you actually think will be achieved by Brexit?

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    If Putin, Boris, ISIL, Marine Le Pen and Trump thought the Blood donation was a great idea.
    That would be enough for you to be against it ? :D
  • Posts: 11,425
    If Putin, Boris, ISIL, Marine Le Pen and Trump thought the Blood donation was a great idea.
    That would be enough for you to be against it ? :D

    what are you going on about? Want to actually discuss some facts rather than posting gibberish?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    It's amazing how those who apparently hate Trump, immediately go to his form of
    Abuse ! Sad really. :(
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    I don't hate Trump - I just think he'd be a tragic choice for America.

    And in terms of 'abuse' are you really that thin skinned?

    Generation snowflake - desperate to take offence all the time. Very sad.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    As do I =D>
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well if Putin, Boris, ISIL, Marine Le Pen and Trump think Brexit is a good idea, it must be.

    I wasn't aware ISIL had weighed into the debate? But Trump and ISIL on the same side is no less risible than Cameron happily sharing a platform with the greens and Sadiq Khan the other week.
    Getafix wrote: »

    Quasi Soviet Union? What are you on?

    Every living past and present British Prime Minister says it would be incredibly stupid to leave the EU. But that's because they're actually all idiots and don't know what they're talking about, right...?

    The UK has the most opt outs of any EU member state and Cameron has now secured us an opt out from ever closer union as well. You need to see beyond the idiotic scaremongering of the Brexit campaign and look at the facts. The UK has incredibly good membership terms of the EU. For decades the UK has led the debate on the future shape of the EU - in most critical areas it reflects exactly what we have wanted to get out of it. Free markets (for which standardised regulations are essential) and the expansion of democracy to Eastern Europe were all driven by the EU thanks to British leadership.

    Why leave something that we have spent decades helping construct and which (although like every institution it has problems) largely serves our interests well?

    You still haven't actually given a good reason for leaving. What do you actually think will be achieved by Brexit?

    A vast bureaucracy which interferes in every aspect of people's lives whilst keeping its members snout's in the trough? Sounds not dissimilar to Soviet times to me.

    'Look beyond the idiotic scaremongering of the Brexit campaign and look at the facts'!

    A bit rich given the entire Remain campaign is based on scaremongering - house prices will go down, jobs will be lost etc. Where are their facts?

    I'd welcome some proven facts of what will happen but all there is from both sides is speculation. So the question is do you stick with Cameron and his pathetic deal brokering to funnel money into Eurocrats pockets or do you twist?

    What do I hope to acheive with Brexit? If it stops us paying to ferry the self serving European Parliament to Strasbourg and back once a month just to vote that will do for me. No clearer example of what a Kafka-esque farce the whole thing is.

  • Posts: 11,119
    It's amazing how those who apparently hate Trump, immediately go to his form of
    Abuse ! Sad really. :(

    Hate will always be answered by hate.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Or, Trump is more like us, than we would like to think ? :D
    There is the old experiment, that if you ask someone to describe the person they hate. If
    You list what they say, you'll find they have described themselves.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    Or, Trump is more like us, than we would like to think ? :D
    There is the old experiment, that if you ask someone to describe the person they hate. If
    You list what they say, you'll find they have described themselves.

    I.e clueless and flailing around for others to blame? That is the trap the west is now falling into.

    Our enemies - like Putin and ISIL - wnat nothing more than to see the institutions we've built since WW2 disintegrate. They will see Brexit as the first step in breaking down the western alliance and wreaking havoc amongst former allies.

    As with the US response to 9/11, by voting for Brexit we would be Doing exactly what our enemies want.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    Or, Trump is more like us, than we would like to think ? :D
    There is the old experiment, that if you ask someone to describe the person they hate. If
    You list what they say, you'll find they have described themselves.

    I.e clueless and flailing around for others to blame? That is the trap the west is now falling into.
    Which is exactly as expected, in an environment where the 'rest' (including the so called 'third world' - I'm old enough to remember that disgraceful term) are rising at the expense of the 'west'.

    Both sides have made some excellent arguments over the past few pages. The final truth will likely be somewhere in the middle, as is normally the case.

    Let's keep our humour lads. The sun will continue to shine and the world won't come to an end.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I don't think there's any trap. Trump appears to be not connected to politics, notice I said
    appears. So given how sick of politicians many people are. I think many will vote for him
    thinking they're giving the politucal class a kicking.
    I think they're wrong, but Trump is playing up to the dislike and mistrust of politicians .
  • Gentleman please!, just watching 'The Daily Politics' on BBC2, Digby Jones for leave is the first person I've heard tell some home truths from the point of view of business, brillant.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    edited June 2016 Posts: 13,384
    Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
    Martin Luther King.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Gentleman please!, just watching 'The Daily Politics' on BBC2, Digby Jones for leave is the first person I've heard tell some home truths from the point of view of business, brillant.

    What does Digby have to say?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384

  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well if Putin, Boris, ISIL, Marine Le Pen and Trump think Brexit is a good idea, it must be.

    I wasn't aware ISIL had weighed into the debate? But Trump and ISIL on the same side is no less risible than Cameron happily sharing a platform with the greens and Sadiq Khan the other week.
    Getafix wrote: »

    Quasi Soviet Union? What are you on?

    Every living past and present British Prime Minister says it would be incredibly stupid to leave the EU. But that's because they're actually all idiots and don't know what they're talking about, right...?

    The UK has the most opt outs of any EU member state and Cameron has now secured us an opt out from ever closer union as well. You need to see beyond the idiotic scaremongering of the Brexit campaign and look at the facts. The UK has incredibly good membership terms of the EU. For decades the UK has led the debate on the future shape of the EU - in most critical areas it reflects exactly what we have wanted to get out of it. Free markets (for which standardised regulations are essential) and the expansion of democracy to Eastern Europe were all driven by the EU thanks to British leadership.

    Why leave something that we have spent decades helping construct and which (although like every institution it has problems) largely serves our interests well?

    You still haven't actually given a good reason for leaving. What do you actually think will be achieved by Brexit?

    A vast bureaucracy which interferes in every aspect of people's lives whilst keeping its members snout's in the trough? Sounds not dissimilar to Soviet times to me.

    'Look beyond the idiotic scaremongering of the Brexit campaign and look at the facts'!

    A bit rich given the entire Remain campaign is based on scaremongering - house prices will go down, jobs will be lost etc. Where are their facts?

    I'd welcome some proven facts of what will happen but all there is from both sides is speculation. So the question is do you stick with Cameron and his pathetic deal brokering to funnel money into Eurocrats pockets or do you twist?

    What do I hope to acheive with Brexit? If it stops us paying to ferry the self serving European Parliament to Strasbourg and back once a month just to vote that will do for me. No clearer example of what a Kafka-esque farce the whole thing is.

    Sorry but the Soviet Union thing simply makes no sense to me. It's like saying Trump is a Nazi. It's just daft. There are nutters in the States who make the same arguments about the Federal government being a communist plot. Believe it if you want but your placing yourself far out in the wacky conspiracy-O - sphere if you sincerely think the EU has anything substantially in common with the Soviet Union (a country the EU was partly set up to resist).

    The EU provides standardised guidelines and regulations that allow a single market to function. The U.S. has the same. You need them if you want to be able to sell (say) a Land Rover across 28 different countries without having to meet seperate emissions and safety standards in every different market. It is all incredibly boring but absolutely essential for a single market to function. And the rules and regs will continue to exist and the UK will still have to comply with them even if we leave. Btw, many of these regs are built on British Standards.

    In terms of the EU interfering in 'every aspect' of people lives, what precisely are you talking about? Examples? Evidence?

    In terms of Strasbourg I totally agree - utter madness. But not a good enough reason for putting our economy at risk and throwing away decades of influence building and wrecking our strategic role in the world's largest trading block.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »

    Let's keep our humour lads. The sun will continue to shine and the world won't come to an end.

    Some common sense spoken finally. Ultimately who gives a shit about the pointless, self serving suits of the EU when there's an international football tournament on?

    It's summer we shouldn't be bogged down with all this tediousness. Sit back crack open a beer (in moderation Russian and English fans please!) and cheer on plucky Iceland to give Ronaldo a bloody nose tonight.

    Vive le foot et encule l'EU!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited June 2016 Posts: 18,281
    :)) I'll bring back some pictures of the canals for them.

    We will close the borders for illegal UK immigrants! So there won't be any canals to visit.
    >:)

    That's BS of the highest degree! You'd miss the money from tourism would you not? Money is also, of course, the main reason why the EU wants the UK to remain part of its club of nations.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I still believe at its heart this is a sovereignty argument. It's the political elements & aspects that are most disconcerting to people. Each country has its culture and its point of view on matters like immigration, terrorism etc. & they don't like being dictated to on these deeply personal issues.

    Moreover, when the EU ignored the Greek referendum (twice, if you count the Papandreou debacle of 2011), they basically showed their true colours & lost credibility.

    I don't have a problem with a single common market or standardized trading rules. I am firmly of the belief that the single currency cannot be sustained (outside of a few powerful nations) however and that there will eventually have to be another currency (even if it is IMF SDR) before the European project can get back on track. The world financial system is increasingly volatile, and that will put more tension on the Euro in years to come & expose its structural flaws.
  • Digby said that their would be a short period of pain, but not recession, most of what is being said by both sides is hypothetical, but he believes that the leave campain is about the politics of now instead of the future for our grandchildren, he believes business will get stronger because of the ability to recruit the right skills from the whole world instead of just being able to recruit from the EU as is currently the case. He also believes that a deal for zero tariffs will happen because the German Motor Industry is one of the biggest lobbyists in Brussels & they will not want tariffs placed on their most profitable market.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    The UK is and always has been more international focused on account of the Empire. It's a two way street also, as I've mentioned earlier, since many Commonwealth country citizens and business people (and even those who are not from the Commonwealth like Iranians or Egyptians for instance) would prefer to invest in the UK rather than Europe. In addition, geography is destiny, and the UK is well positioned here also. These are not justifications for leaving, but I wanted to mention it because the UK is in a unique position. Having said that, having one toe in the EU camp doesn't hurt - the question is how far into that puddle does one want to be.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Getafix wrote: »


    The EU provides standardised guidelines and regulations that allow a single market to function. The U.S. has the same. You need them if you want to be able to sell (say) a Land Rover across 28 different countries without having to meet seperate emissions and safety standards in every different market. It is all incredibly boring but absolutely essential for a single market to function. And the rules and regs will continue to exist and the UK will still have to comply with them even if we leave. Btw, many of these regs are built on British Standards.

    In terms of the EU interfering in 'every aspect' of people lives, what precisely are you talking about? Examples? Evidence?

    In terms of Strasbourg I totally agree - utter madness. But not a good enough reason for putting our economy at risk and throwing away decades of influence building and wrecking our strategic role in the world's largest trading block.

    Thing is, this just isn't true. If it were you wouldn't be selling those Land Rovers to China. And anyway, it isn't too hard for a non-European country to demand the same standards as the EU without becoming a member.

    The whole 'economy will crash' argument doesn't make sense. Of course the big, no I should say huge companies prefer to deal with only one government, as it saves them lobbyists money.

    Two countries not part of the EU have the strongest economies of the continent: Norway ans Switserland.

    We've discussed the EU interference in every aspect of life before here, but I'll give you one example: because of the Greek debt crisis VAT in the Netherlands went up from 19 to 21%. that's every day life for you.

    Go and check how many different commisions the EU has, which make specific rules for those areas. It's a bureaucratic monster stuck away in an ivory tower, far away from the people it's supposed to govern. There has been no benefit. The best they end up doing is shoddy deals with half-arsed dictators like Erdogan who manage to extort the EU while making money from the source of the problems (ISIS).

    Also, the 'we need one huge block to be competitive with other big blocks' is not true. First off, as soon as China (1.2 billion people) and India (1.1) gather steam, we have little to compare. The EU has 508 million. But we don't need to. Singapore is doing fine, Israel is doing quite well (economically), etc. etc. No 'power blocks' there. In the future, power blocks turn out to be a 20th century fantasy. We are creating a network society, we don't need political elites on that level.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @CommanderRoss, Singapore & Israel are very competitive nations, economically. I agree with your points, but the EU does benefit the poorer (and less competitive) nations within it to an extent by giving them easier access to markets than they perhaps would otherwise have, when they would probably fall by the wayside under a 'Darwinistic' capitalist model. The issue imho is the single currency. That is what kills the model, because countries like Greece cannot devalue and readjust to the loss of competitiveness, so their citizens suffer and social strife ensues.

    eg. Canada/US have a trade agreement, and the Canadian $ can still depreciate vs the US $, and has done so due to a loss of competitiveness. The US is Canada's largest trading partner.
  • Well put @CommanderRoss couldn't agree more.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    bondjames wrote: »
    @CommanderRoss, Singapore & Israel are very competitive nations, economically. I agree with your points, but the EU does benefit the poorer (and less competitive) nations within it to an extent by giving them easier access to markets than they perhaps would otherwise have, when they would probably fall by the wayside under a 'Darwinistic' capitalist model. The issue imho is the single currency. That is what kills the model, because countries like Greece cannot devalue and readjust to the loss of competitiveness, so their citizens suffer and social strife ensues.

    eg. Canada/US have a trade agreement, and the Canadian $ can still depreciate vs the US $, and has done so due to a loss of competitiveness. The US is Canada's largest trading partner.

    Exactly. So by introducing the Euro the EU actually killed it's own kids. If labour in those weaker countries is valued the same way as it is in a far more productive environment (Northern Europe) it will lose out. A Greek bankruptcy and leaving the EU would've been far better for their economy then beeing 'saved'by new loans to pay off the old ones. Funny how parents stop kids from doing so, but the same principle is 'good' on such a high level.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Digby said that their would be a short period of pain, but not recession, most of what is being said by both sides is hypothetical, but he believes that the leave campain is about the politics of now instead of the future for our grandchildren, he believes business will get stronger because of the ability to recruit the right skills from the whole world instead of just being able to recruit from the EU as is currently the case. He also believes that a deal for zero tariffs will happen because the German Motor Industry is one of the biggest lobbyists in Brussels & they will not want tariffs placed on their most profitable market.

    Some sense in that. Although I don't think there is anything about our EU membership that prevents us recruiting from outside the EU - those restrictions come entirely from our own UK immigration policies.
    bondjames wrote: »
    The UK is and always has been more international focused on account of the Empire. It's a two way street also, as I've mentioned earlier, since many Commonwealth country citizens and business people (and even those who are not from the Commonwealth like Iranians or Egyptians for instance) would prefer to invest in the UK rather than Europe. In addition, geography is destiny, and the UK is well positioned here also. These are not justifications for leaving, but I wanted to mention it because the UK is in a unique position. Having said that, having one toe in the EU camp doesn't hurt - the question is how far into that puddle does one want to be.

    And yet Germany exports far more to India and China than we do - and last time I checked Germany was a member of the EU. France is also very outward looking and has some of the most successful global firms in the world. VINCI for example is the world's largest contractor. The UK is making excuses for its failings and blaming the EU. If we left we'd soon realise that Brexit is no instant panacea for our decades of underinvestment in science and research.
    Getafix wrote: »


    The EU provides standardised guidelines and regulations that allow a single market to function. The U.S. has the same. You need them if you want to be able to sell (say) a Land Rover across 28 different countries without having to meet seperate emissions and safety standards in every different market. It is all incredibly boring but absolutely essential for a single market to function. And the rules and regs will continue to exist and the UK will still have to comply with them even if we leave. Btw, many of these regs are built on British Standards.

    In terms of the EU interfering in 'every aspect' of people lives, what precisely are you talking about? Examples? Evidence?

    In terms of Strasbourg I totally agree - utter madness. But not a good enough reason for putting our economy at risk and throwing away decades of influence building and wrecking our strategic role in the world's largest trading block.

    Thing is, this just isn't true. If it were you wouldn't be selling those Land Rovers to China. And anyway, it isn't too hard for a non-European country to demand the same standards as the EU without becoming a member.

    The whole 'economy will crash' argument doesn't make sense. Of course the big, no I should say huge companies prefer to deal with only one government, as it saves them lobbyists money.

    Two countries not part of the EU have the strongest economies of the continent: Norway ans Switserland.

    We've discussed the EU interference in every aspect of life before here, but I'll give you one example: because of the Greek debt crisis VAT in the Netherlands went up from 19 to 21%. that's every day life for you.

    Go and check how many different commisions the EU has, which make specific rules for those areas. It's a bureaucratic monster stuck away in an ivory tower, far away from the people it's supposed to govern. There has been no benefit. The best they end up doing is shoddy deals with half-arsed dictators like Erdogan who manage to extort the EU while making money from the source of the problems (ISIS).

    Also, the 'we need one huge block to be competitive with other big blocks' is not true. First off, as soon as China (1.2 billion people) and India (1.1) gather steam, we have little to compare. The EU has 508 million. But we don't need to. Singapore is doing fine, Israel is doing quite well (economically), etc. etc. No 'power blocks' there. In the future, power blocks turn out to be a 20th century fantasy. We are creating a network society, we don't need political elites on that level.

    My point about standardised regulations is totally true. Not sure what the regs in China are but you can be sure Land Rover has to comply with them. Because China is a huge market in itself, then it's profitable and relatively easy to comply.

    The EU played a lead role in imposing sanctions on Iran and Russia - in no small part due to British leadership.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »


    The EU provides standardised guidelines and regulations that allow a single market to function. The U.S. has the same. You need them if you want to be able to sell (say) a Land Rover across 28 different countries without having to meet seperate emissions and safety standards in every different market. It is all incredibly boring but absolutely essential for a single market to function. And the rules and regs will continue to exist and the UK will still have to comply with them even if we leave. Btw, many of these regs are built on British Standards.

    In terms of the EU interfering in 'every aspect' of people lives, what precisely are you talking about? Examples? Evidence?

    In terms of Strasbourg I totally agree - utter madness. But not a good enough reason for putting our economy at risk and throwing away decades of influence building and wrecking our strategic role in the world's largest trading block.

    Thing is, this just isn't true. If it were you wouldn't be selling those Land Rovers to China. And anyway, it isn't too hard for a non-European country to demand the same standards as the EU without becoming a member.

    The whole 'economy will crash' argument doesn't make sense. Of course the big, no I should say huge companies prefer to deal with only one government, as it saves them lobbyists money.

    Two countries not part of the EU have the strongest economies of the continent: Norway ans Switserland.

    We've discussed the EU interference in every aspect of life before here, but I'll give you one example: because of the Greek debt crisis VAT in the Netherlands went up from 19 to 21%. that's every day life for you.

    Go and check how many different commisions the EU has, which make specific rules for those areas. It's a bureaucratic monster stuck away in an ivory tower, far away from the people it's supposed to govern. There has been no benefit. The best they end up doing is shoddy deals with half-arsed dictators like Erdogan who manage to extort the EU while making money from the source of the problems (ISIS).

    Also, the 'we need one huge block to be competitive with other big blocks' is not true. First off, as soon as China (1.2 billion people) and India (1.1) gather steam, we have little to compare. The EU has 508 million. But we don't need to. Singapore is doing fine, Israel is doing quite well (economically), etc. etc. No 'power blocks' there. In the future, power blocks turn out to be a 20th century fantasy. We are creating a network society, we don't need political elites on that level.

    It's a unique entity, construction, that we 'all' built from the ground up back in the 1940's. You call it a 'monster' that needs to be destroyed entirely, I call it an entity that we need to change into a more efficient, less bureaucratic and more democratic entity. And you are asking for the impossible with your flawed comparisons, like Erdogan. You just don't get the complexity of the immigration politics. In an ideal world, an ideal European Union, we could have been much more effective at stopping immigrants. But you don't want it, and therefore you continue slamming the EU for having difficulty to make treaties with Erdogan.

    Your comparisons with Israel and Singapore are IMO also flawed. Those countries are basically ruled on undemocratic executive orders or flawed oligarchic and neo-religious behavior. And in fact, Israel isn't doing very well economically. Tons of their budget are squandered through unnecessary defense tactics that only keep the nation alive in an artificial way.

    Your call for destruction of the EU is entirely right-wing populist. You don't even consider more nuanced and effective changes for the current EU. But then again, if one votes PVV that will never happen. They only ask for the destruction of the EU and never give more nuanced solutions to very complex problems. You can turn complex problems into populist marketing slogans that your people eat like chocolate. But I am searching for politicians who have the guts to explain difficult solutions into clear and understandable measures. We won't get that from ultra-left-wing populists and ultra-right-wing-populists.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    The UK is and always has been more international focused on account of the Empire. It's a two way street also, as I've mentioned earlier, since many Commonwealth country citizens and business people (and even those who are not from the Commonwealth like Iranians or Egyptians for instance) would prefer to invest in the UK rather than Europe. In addition, geography is destiny, and the UK is well positioned here also. These are not justifications for leaving, but I wanted to mention it because the UK is in a unique position. Having said that, having one toe in the EU camp doesn't hurt - the question is how far into that puddle does one want to be.

    And yet Germany exports far more to India and China than we do - and last time I checked Germany was a member of the EU. France is also very outward looking and has some of the most successful global firms in the world. VINCI for example is the world's largest contractor. The UK is making excuses for its failings and blaming the EU. If we left we'd soon realise that Brexit is no instant panacea for our decades of underinvestment in science and research.
    I don't disagree with you. Certainly the UK has not made the most of globalization, the growth of the East, or of its unique position that I mentioned earlier. In fact, I think it can be said that it has let an important couple of decades in history pass it by.

    Regarding Germany's exports - keep in mind that the Euro has benefited Germany more than any other country, because the single currency is actually lower (on a trade weighted basis) than what the Deutsche Mark would have been on its own. The uncompetitive nations within the EU act as an automatic depreciator of the Euro, and that benefits Germany and its exporters more than any other nation. That's not to say they don't deserve their success, but there is a 'lending hand' as it were, as well.
This discussion has been closed.