The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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Comments

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    It's all a matter of perspective ? ;)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    If the banking cartel didn t have its plans in order, there would be no referendum.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    But a UK outside the EU will still have to comply with the cast majority of EU legislation if we want access to the single market (which we do)... But outside we don't get any say on that legislation whatsoever.

    No only those selling into the EU would have to comply, which is currently between 4 & 5 % only.

    Interesting and perhaps slightly disingenuous statistics. Yes only 4-5% of UK businesses may trade with the EU, but that 5% will be the big boys. Our pharmaceutical and automotive companies and world leading financial services providers. By number these are relatively few businesses but in terms of value of exports and the number of people they employ they are a massive part of the UK economy and engaged in massive trade with the rest of the EU.

    The vast majority of other 95% of businesses will be your hairdressers and corner shops - not businesses that you'd expect to be engaged in cross border trade anyway.

    Remember the CBI, which represents big companies (the ones that employ lots of people in well paid jobs) have come out for Remain. The IoD, which represents small businesses, which tend to employ less people in less well paid jobs, have come out for Brexit.

    The other worrying thing about that statistic is that if 95% of British busineses are not currently taking advantage of opportunities to trade with the EU, what on earth makes you think that Brexit is going to turn them overnight into thrusting go-getting exporters about to take over the world?!

    These stats actually underline just how bad at exporting we have become (remember the EU doesn't stop Germany being a highly successsful export driven economy) and how weak our position is outside the EU.



  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    But a UK outside the EU will still have to comply with the cast majority of EU legislation if we want access to the single market (which we do)... But outside we don't get any say on that legislation whatsoever.
    Yes, but that video above seems to suggest that the growth is coming from elsewhere (which I believe is the case) and therefore a UK outside the EU regulation shackles will be more nimble and able to forge deals faster with other nations who are increasingly profitable trading partners. That's not necessarily what will occur, because the UK will have to up its game to be an attractive trading partner for such countries, but the pressure of being alone may just be what the doctor ordered. A case of the child needing to leave (or be kicked out of) home to really discover themselves and realize their potential.

    The growth is currently coming from elsewhere. That is why everyone else in the EU is talking about export driven growth to emerging markets. That's why Germany exports twice as much to China and India as we do. The whole EU is obsessed with how Europe can get a larger slice of global trade. Do you not think highly successful exporters in Germany, Holland, Poland don't ready know this? Just because you are in the EU doesn't mean you can't sell outside of it!

    The other aspect of this is that emerging economies are expanding and are looking to invest in Europe as well. Up until recently Chinese and Indian companies have been keen to invest in the UK because our membership of the EU and liberalised labour markets make the UK an attractive place to invest.

    Not for much longer though, as we are too busy in the UK shooting ourselves repeatedly in the foot. Meanwhile France looks on greedily, fully expecting to clean up once we've pointlessly kicked ourselves out of the world's largest trading block.

    Seriously, I know saying this is going to just make some of you even more determined to feel the noose tighten around your necks as you kick away the stool from beneath your own feet, but the level of ignorance and wilful stupidity (EU = Soviet Union) amongst the Brexit supporters is mind blowing.

    Yes the EU is imperfect and often annoying but as a country we are intelligent enough to note that the UK economy has performed better since we joined the EU than it did before. We realise that there is a difference between a trading block we have voluntarily joined and played a leading role in shaping, and the Soviet Union. We are aware that the idea of a European super state is dead and that our PM has anyway negotiated an opt out from ever closer union. We value the unparalleled peace, security and prosperity the EU has helped bring to our continent. We believe that flexible and free markets are a good thing, but that so are basic standards in terms employmemt rights and consumer protections.

    But apparently not.

    I seriously thought the UK electorate had a little more nouse, but clearly we have turned into a nation of utter muppets.

    Frankly we probably do deserve Brexit. The continent will be glad to see the back of us no doubt as we walk off to be welcomed with open arms by China (not).
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 389
    Watch this, before you rubbish BREXIT, please. [-O<

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited June 2016 Posts: 8,335

    It's a unique entity, construction, that we 'all' built from the ground up back in the 1940's. You call it a 'monster' that needs to be destroyed entirely, I call it an entity that we need to change into a more efficient, less bureaucratic and more democratic entity.
    Nope, never said that. Try reading.
    And you are asking for the impossible with your flawed comparisons, like Erdogan. You just don't get the complexity of the immigration politics. In an ideal world, an ideal European Union, we could have been much more effective at stopping immigrants. But you don't want it, and therefore you continue slamming the EU for having difficulty to make treaties with Erdogan.
    So now I'm too stupid to understand immigration problems, and at the same time you tell me that it makes sense the EU can't handle her problems? Make up your mind!
    Your comparisons with Israel and Singapore are IMO also flawed. Those countries are basically ruled on undemocratic executive orders or flawed oligarchic and neo-religious behavior. And in fact, Israel isn't doing very well economically. Tons of their budget are squandered through unnecessary defense tactics that only keep the nation alive in an artificial way.
    What the hell is that? As far as I know there's little 'Neo' about the Jewish people. And what does their believe have to do with theri economy? It isn't their defense spending that makes their economy efficient, on the contrary. It's a huge burden and still thay make it run smoothly.
    Your call for destruction of the EU is entirely right-wing populist. You don't even consider more nuanced and effective changes for the current EU. But then again, if one votes PVV that will never happen. They only ask for the destruction of the EU and never give more nuanced solutions to very complex problems. You can turn complex problems into populist marketing slogans that your people eat like chocolate. But I am searching for politicians who have the guts to explain difficult solutions into clear and understandable measures. We won't get that from ultra-left-wing populists and ultra-right-wing-populists.
    I have been tolerant to you before, but this is nothing less then a personal attack and slander. You seem to think that because I see things differently I'm a right wing populist and 'don't understand' what's going on. I'll have you know I'm higher educated then you, have seen almost every European country and many outside the EU, speak three languages and studied European history. Not that all this is a guarantee to see things right, but it might incline you that I actually do know what I'm talking about. Try looking in a mirror before you attack someone else. And for the record, I've never voted PVV and never will.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited June 2016 Posts: 8,335
    @Getafix I do agree with you that Britain's lack of economic growth isn't caused by the EU, it's because of, as you stated, lack of R&D and investments.
    But I don't agree on the importance of big companies. Those are not the ones, in our modern digital world, that bring innovation. You don't have to be big to invest in R&D. In fact all the companies that we're so impressed by, Facebook, Google, in my own country TomTom, have all come up in the last decade and started small. You can better have 50 small companies with 10 employees then 1 with 500. And don't rule out the hairdressers just yet, just go and see how many hairdresser chains work internationally.

    Leaving the EU or staying in it won't make that much of a difference. Yes, maybe some big banks will leave and yes, the French are jumping up and down to get them there... but they won't. See what happens when the first banker from the city that moves to Paris sees the taxes he has to pay....

    A single market sounds fantastic, but it isn't that much of a difference. Yes, it saves paperwork, but that isn't so much of a burden. As I said, the big firms just want the UK to remain in the EU because it makes their lobby work (and influence on regulations) so much easier. Those smaller companies don't have that advantage.

    No, the main problem is political. And yes, the Brexiteers (nice word btw) have been banging on about souvereignty as if it were a holy grail (it works so well with the English, you have to admit) which all in all says little. At the same time, claiming the EU has left it's 'USE' drive isn't true either, in my work I tend to be close to politicians and this is still their goal.

    Personally, as I've said before, I strongly oppose an USE, for the differences are too great, which is painfully illustrated by that failing project the Euro, whitch keeps the Greeks, Portuegese and Spanish in a headlock, with just enough air not to die. But, agian, that is little of Britain's concearn.

    The thing you should be worried about, imo, is the lack of influence of ordinary people, and the huge influence lobby groups and short-term international fear have on the EU's behaviour. all referendums have been ignored or just payed lip service (France 1x, Holland 2x). It's own rules have been blatantly disregarded (the addition of Hungary, Romania, cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Malta, Slovenia, Slowakia and the Czech republic in 2004 not even half was fit to join according to the Copenhagen criteria). It's been asking more and more and more money, always in hindsight, never getting an accountants' approval, always overspending, and never beeing able to account for all of it.

    I for one don't see why you'd want to be part of such a corrupt, incompetent moloch. The EU should be completely reformed, but little is done. My hope is a Brexit will spur the EU on in actually reforming, and hopefully into a network driven organisation of the 21st century.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    @Getafix I do agree with you that Britain's lack of economic growth isn't caused by the EU, it's because of, as you stated, lack of R&D and investments.
    But I don't agree on the importance of big companies. Those are not the ones, in our modern digital world, that bring innovation. You don't have to be big to invest in R&D. In fact all the companies that we're so impressed by, Facebook, Google, in my own country TomTom, have all come up in the last decade and started small. You can better have 50 small companies with 10 employees then 1 with 500. And don't rule out the hairdressers just yet, just go and see how many hairdresser chains work internationally.

    Leaving the EU or staying in it won't make that much of a difference. Yes, maybe some big banks will leave and yes, the French are jumping up and down to get them there... but they won't. See what happens when the first banker from the city that moves to Paris sees the taxes he has to pay....

    A single market sounds fantastic, but it isn't that much of a difference. Yes, it saves paperwork, but that isn't so much of a burden. As I said, the big firms just want the UK to remain in the EU because it makes their lobby work (and influence on regulations) so much easier. Those smaller companies don't have that advantage.

    No, the main problem is political. And yes, the Brexiteers (nice word btw) have been banging on about souvereignty as if it were a holy grail (it works so well with the English, you have to admit) which all in all says little. At the same time, claiming the EU has left it's 'USE' drive isn't true either, in my work I tend to be close to politicians and this is still their goal.

    Personally, as I've said before, I strongly oppose an USE, for the differences are too great, which is painfully illustrated by that failing project the Euro, whitch keeps the Greeks, Portuegese and Spanish in a headlock, with just enough air not to die. But, agian, that is little of Britain's concearn.

    The thing you should be worried about, imo, is the lack of influence of ordinary people, and the huge influence lobby groups and short-term international fear have on the EU's behaviour. all referendums have been ignored or just payed lip service (France 1x, Holland 2x). It's own rules have been blatantly disregarded (the addition of Hungary, Romania, cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Malta, Slovenia, Slowakia and the Czech republic in 2004 not even half was fit to join according to the Copenhagen criteria). It's been asking more and more and more money, always in hindsight, never getting an accountants' approval, always overspending, and never beeing able to account for all of it.

    I for one don't see why you'd want to be part of such a corrupt, incompetent moloch. The EU should be completely reformed, but little is done. My hope is a Brexit will spur the EU on in actually reforming, and hopefully into a network driven organisation of the 21st century.

    First intelligent case I've read here from a Eurosceptic and I actually agree with a lot of what you say. There is a democratic deficit in the EU undoubtedly. The EU has many flaws. I guess that whereas you see Brexit leading to much needed reform of the EU for those who are left behind, I hope the UK can remain and help drive that reform itself. Many other members of the EU are keen to see the UK's agenda for reform followed through.

    From what I understand it was the UK that pushed really hard to let all those Eastern European countries join. You may not like it, but it was a win for UK strategic policy.

    I don't see any benefits for the UK from leaving - only downsides. And I think the damage to the UK (a lost decade at least) could be serious for the country's future. The world is changing so fast and the UK is looking inward instead of addressing the big issues.

    The democratic deficit I actually worry about a lot more than the EU is the one inside the UK. We have the most centralised state of any major democracy. Local government in the UK is an irrelevance. Everything is run from Whitehall and this in my opinion is the real root cause of people's sense of disenfranchisement in the UK. We need massive and real substantial devolution of power from London to ordinary people.



  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384

    Lord Digby totally eviscerates a labour remain MP.
  • Posts: 11,425
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2016/06/eu-referendum-2

    Every single rational argument points towards staying in, but don't let rational argument get in the way of the Brexit insanity.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2016/06/eu-referendum-2

    Every single rational argument points towards staying in, but don't let rational argument get in the way of the Brexit insanity.
    Getafix wrote: »
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2016/06/eu-referendum-2

    Every single rational argument points towards staying in, but don't let rational argument get in the way of the Brexit insanity.

    Ooowh exactly. There's already too much emotion stockpiling on this referendum. Some rationalism has already been replaced by emotional responses and a sense of British nationalism, whereas the dispassionate set of arguments, summing up both pro's and con's are very much invisible. And I do think that recent events, like the hooligan riots at Euro 2016 between English and Russian supporters, the Donald Trump bigotry and the recent terrorist attacks in Paris, Brussels and now Orlando are helping the "Leave" camp.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    So anyone who wants to leave the EU is irrational, ? By the way are these the same economic
    groups that wanted us go join the euro ? Or didn't predict the greatest depression in world
    History ? , I'd say the "Delusion " may be from the rose tinted glasses of the remain camp.
    In the referendum in Norway, all the same arugments were used, yet Norway hasn't collapsed ,
    wars haven't started, infact not joining is considered the smart thing for Norway to have done.
  • Posts: 11,119
    So anyone who wants to leave the EU is irrational, ? By the way are these the same economic
    groups that wanted us go join the euro ? Or didn't predict the greatest depression in world
    History ? , I'd say the "Delusion " may be from the rose tinted glasses of the remain camp.
    In the referendum in Norway, all the same arugments were used, yet Norway hasn't collapsed ,
    wars haven't started, infact not joining is considered the smart thing for Norway to have done.

    The Norwegian referendum was about entering the EU. That's entirely different from the Brexit referendum, which is entirely about a possible "Leave".

    Go leave. If that's what you like. I don't mind. But please be daring enough to have a good, proper, nuanced discussion about not just the pro's but also the con's of a "Leave" vote. As you indicated, this referendum is not just a Eurovision Song Contest vote. It's something damn serious.

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    So I have only the right to enter any discussion , if I follow your criteria to make
    my arguments ? Sounds very EU :D I thought Myself and others have made
    some good points for staying, we can not be held responsible for anyone's
    inability to understand them. ;)
    my metion of Norway was only to show How the same old arguments are used time
    after time, to frighten people and scare them in to staying. Which serms odd to me
    as the lovers of the EU membership, I thought would have a list of all the fantastic
    things that the EU have brought us, like full employment ? But no there isn't full
    employment is there, the minimum wage for low paid workers ? Sadly No again
    that was a British government idea.
    The EU is a comfort blanket for those too frightened or lacking in self belief, let
    the EU make all the discussion, as it takes away any reason to think for yourself,
    and it's great for passing the blame. As you don't have to take responsibility.
    After pages of discussion, those who want to stay still want to stay and those who
    still want to leave also keep that opinion. So role on the 23rd so we can get the final
    answer.
  • Posts: 11,119
    So I have only the right to enter any discussion , if I follow your criteria to make
    my arguments ? Sounds very EU :D I thought Myself and others have made
    some good points for staying, we can not be held responsible for anyone's
    inability to understand them. ;)
    my metion of Norway was only to show How the same old arguments are used time
    after time, to frighten people and scare them in to staying. Which serms odd to me
    as the lovers of the EU membership, I thought would have a list of all the fantastic
    things that the EU have brought us, like full employment ? But no there isn't full
    employment is there, the minimum wage for low paid workers ? Sadly No again
    that was a British government idea.
    The EU is a comfort blanket for those too frightened or lacking in self belief, let
    the EU make all the discussion, as it takes away any reason to think for yourself,
    and it's great for passing the blame. As you don't have to take responsibility.
    After pages of discussion, those who want to stay still want to stay and those who
    still want to leave also keep that opinion. So role on the 23rd so we can get the final
    answer.

    It's all shit no? All a piece of crap. Let's destroy. Because destruction we like.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I do enjoy your "nuanced discussion " :))
  • GG you never change, you talk "nuanced discussion" but only on your terms, everytime someone diagrees with your point of view, you say their wrong, deluded or irrational.

    All I'd say to you sir is that I have listened to your view, you are a Europhile which is fine with me, I don't share that view, live with it.

    Can you vote in the referendum, sorry but I'm not sure of your nationality?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Latest from George Osborne, is if we leave then it's massive cut backs and higher taxes !
    So more "Fear". I think a good example of the Stay camp could be ........

    Two big blokes come round your house saying " I hear you want to leave our Community?"
    " Imaging what might happen to your TV, if you left " as he pushes it to the floor, smashing
    it.
    " What might happen to your lovely iPad " as he smashes it.
    " The community is your friend, has been for years, it has looked after your interests !
    So keep paying your money ....... or book a bed in the intensive care ward, mate !" :D
  • Posts: 7,653
    I find that both the leave and stay camp have been dickish and not always been about the truth. At the end of the day it is all about economics and I know that those arguments make sense but it is hard to fight xenophobia, unrealistic fears and assumptions made about the EU when most of the damage done is actually done by their own government who did not own up to it but blame it upon Brussels.

    I expect a Brexit and we will welcome Scotland fairly soon in the EU as its one opposing member will have no bloody say anymore.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Can't see Scotland being automatically allowed to join, as during their referendum
    The EU told them, they'd have to reapply for membership. Which would take years !
    Unless the EU was telling fibs ? Would they do that ? :))
    Although I agree both sides have come across as scaremongering A-holes, each
    One throwing figures around with may or not be true, we don't know as the debate
    Has been covered with so much bull.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 4,617
    "At the end of the day it is all about economics"

    Not true and something that the inners have missed. They have chosen a strategy of focusing on economics and lost sight of the bigger picture. This is about national and cultural identity. What exactly does it mean to be Great Britain? What exactly does it mean to be British? What do we want our country to look and feel like? To ignore these issues and try to buy the vote with cash (or the threat of less cash if voting out) has been a bad error IMHO. Plus, especially on the Lab side, to constantly imply that those who are concerned with immigration are racist is no way to gain support. Only now has the penny dropped and its far too late. It just confirms that the political elite are very out of touch with what the priorities of the voters are. The inner campaign has been one dimensional and lacking in empathy and insight. That does not surprise me from the DC team but Lab have been equally bad. They deserve to lose.

    PS much discussion re Scotland breaking away and joining EU if there is an out vote. But what if we vote in as GB but England votes out? I have seen little discussion concerning that scenario
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 389
    Latest from George Osborne, is if we leave then it's massive cut backs and higher taxes !
    So more "Fear". I think a good example of the Stay camp could be ........

    Two big blokes come round your house saying " I hear you want to leave our Community?"
    " Imaging what might happen to your TV, if you left " as he pushes it to the floor, smashing
    it.
    " What might happen to your lovely iPad " as he smashes it.
    " The community is your friend, has been for years, it has looked after your interests !
    So keep paying your money ....... or book a bed in the intensive care ward, mate !" :D

    Osborne is a 1st class dickh**d, never balanced a budget yet, no problem as he'd be gone along with Cameron in 48 hours following BREXIT because of all the public pressure. >:)
  • Posts: 4,617
    DC and Osbourne will have nice jobs lined up on various boards, like a Bond villain planning their escape!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    :)) The first rule of politics " Look after yourself !"
  • Posts: 11,119
    GG you never change, you talk "nuanced discussion" but only on your terms, everytime someone diagrees with your point of view, you say their wrong, deluded or irrational.

    For the very simply reason: I just don't get any answer to my question. To hell with disagreement. I'm happily agree to disagree, but only if someone actually responds to my quote:
    But please be daring enough to have a good, proper, nuanced discussion about not just the pro's but also the con's of a "Leave" vote. As you indicated, this referendum is not just a Eurovision Song Contest vote. It's something damn serious.

    On several occasions I admitted that a Brexit is possible. And I EVEN posted a whole set of arguments why a Brexit could also be helpful to the other EU-members. But then someone stands up and says that I am a 'fear prophet'. Or someone else starts again a rant about all the pro's of a Brexit without mentioning some con's!

    At least I look also to the possibilities of a Brexit, and I take a possible Brexit serious.

    If you disagree with me, then come up with a proper set of arguments. And then, eventually, I am happy to agree with you on our disagreement.
  • patb wrote: »
    DC and Osbourne will have nice jobs lined up on various boards, like a Bond villain planning their escape!

    Not a chance successful companies wouldn't hire the 'Chuckle Brothers' to clean their executive toilets. :D
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    edited June 2016 Posts: 13,384
    "Although I agree both sides have come across as scaremongering A-holes, each
    One throwing figures around with may or not be true, we don't know as the debate
    Has been covered with so much bull"

    An extract from one of my posts, I blame both sides for scaremongering. ;)
    On jobs for the boys, I think D Cameron will be snapped up by the Pork
    Marketing board. :))
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 4,617
    patb wrote: »
    DC and Osbourne will have nice jobs lined up on various boards, like a Bond villain planning their escape!

    Not a chance successful companies wouldn't hire the 'Chuckle Brothers' to clean their executive toilets. :D

    So many UK politicians have come straight out of prison and walked back into jobs. DC and the team will never be unemployed

    "Always have an escape plan"

  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    "Although I agree both sides have come across as scaremongering A-holes, each
    One throwing figures around with may or not be true, we don't know as the debate
    Has been covered with so much bull"

    An extract from one of my posts, I blame both sides for scaremongering. ;)
    On jobs for the boys, I think D Cameron will be snapped up by the Pork
    Marketing board. :))

    When a referendum was held in 2010 about the overseas countries of The United Kingdom Of The Netherlands and their wish to become independent (Aruba, Curaçao, Sint Maarten, Bonaire, Saba & Sint Eustatius), the Dutch government saw the complexity of the issue and initiated a much better referendum with more options, so that a better discussion and debate was facilitated. The referendum for statehood reform for Curaçao looked like this:

    Referendum About the Future of the Statehood of Curaçao - The Four Options (April 8th 2005):

    A) An autonomous country within the United Kingdom Of The Netherlands
    B) An independent country outside the United Kingdom Of The Netherlands
    C) Part of the current country Netherlands Antilles (status quo)
    D) Part of the current country The Netherlands

    In fact, the government in The Hague hoped that Curaçao would become completely independent. But in the end these were the results:

    A) 68%
    B) 05%
    C) 04%
    D) 23%

    In the end Curaçao decided to become part of the Dutch Commonwealth, whereas Bonaire -against all odds- decided to become part of The Netherlands. These choices are understandable, as the monarchy is very popular in the Dutch overseas territories. But my point is this: The referendum resulted in a lovely, nuanced debate about the future of all states within the Kingdom. It created a bit more understanding as well. And now, as of 2016, The United Kingdom Of The Netherlands consists of four independent nations: Aruba, Curaçao, The Netherlands and Sint Maarten.

    The problem with your UK referendums is this: They are too much part of party politics. Powers within the UK political parties many times 'fear' these referendums too much, and thee options for these referendums are negotiated as if it's monopoly. It's dangerous. Now you have only two options.....with the Brexit-referendum. And obviously it facilitates two completely disconnected camps.

    A referendum like that about the independence of Scotland and a Brexit should be treated much more carefully. It's not monopoly.

    David Cameron should have created more options and put a referendum front-centre first, like:

    A) Secede from the European Union
    B) Renegotiate the terms of the current EU-membership and apply them
    C) Stay inside the European Union
    D) Stay inside the European Union, with an opt-out for the nations of the UK

    By doing so, you force the people to better think about the issues. And you are steering the discussion in a more positive direction.
This discussion has been closed.