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The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    After pages of discussion, those who want to stay still want to stay and those who still want to leave also keep that opinion. So role on the 23rd so we can get the final answer.
    "I have only one thing to say: You turn if you want to. The Lady’s not for turning!"
    patb wrote: »
    "At the end of the day it is all about economics"

    Not true and something that the inners have missed. They have chosen a strategy of focusing on economics and lost sight of the bigger picture. This is about national and cultural identity. What exactly does it mean to be Great Britain? What exactly does it mean to be British? What do we want our country to look and feel like? To ignore these issues and try to buy the vote with cash (or the threat of less cash if voting out) has been a bad error IMHO. Plus, especially on the Lab side, to constantly imply that those who are concerned with immigration are racist is no way to gain support. Only now has the penny dropped and its far too late. It just confirms that the political elite are very out of touch with what the priorities of the voters are. The inner campaign has been one dimensional and lacking in empathy and insight. That does not surprise me from the DC team but Lab have been equally bad. They deserve to lose.
    Agreed.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    @patb that was a really Interesting video and I'd urge all to watch it. Ordinary people
    Giving their views, I agree that the Labour party is totally out of touch with their voters,
    As many see them now as a left wing of the conservative party and not a party for the
    Working class.
    I also agree that for the middle and upper class, The EU has been a good thing, they've
    Done very well out if it but for the working class it's been very bad. ( and I count myself
    In that group) it was refreshing to hear the ordinary people give their views rather than
    The usual politicians. These people!e are bigots, racists or extremist, merely people who
    Want a fair deal.
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    Posts: 389
    @Gustav_Graves with the deepest of respect, I don't think you understand Britain or it's politics, your examples of other referendums are simply just not germane to the discussion. When BREXIT happens, then I think you may get your chance to vote in The Netherlands.
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    Posts: 389
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    @patb that was a really Interesting video and I'd urge all to watch it. Ordinary people
    Giving their views, I agree that the Labour party is totally out of touch with their voters,
    As many see them now as a left wing of the conservative party and not a party for the
    Working class.
    I also agree that for the middle and upper class, The EU has been a good thing, they've
    Done very well out if it but for the working class it's been very bad. ( and I count myself
    In that group) it was refreshing to hear the ordinary people give their views rather than
    The usual politicians. These people!e are bigots, racists or extremist, merely people who
    Want a fair deal.

    I hate the class system in the UK because IT like the EU stifles dreams. I'll tell you one thing though, most people I know are for OUT & they represent a complete cross section of society, so I'm beginning to believe OUT is a real possibility.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I agree, the Westminster elite may have misjudged the feelings of the people big time !
    A few at the top may have done well under the EU, bit it would seem the majority haven't.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,617
    @patb that was a really Interesting video and I'd urge all to watch it.

    Thanks, with around 3 to 4 months of research, debate etc, this short video is the best thing I have found to capture the essence of the issue
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    I agree, the Westminster elite may have misjudged the feelings of the people big time !
    A few at the top may have done well under the EU, bit it would seem the majority haven't.
    Interestingly, similar arguments are put forth re: the North American Free Trade Agreement. The standard economic viewpoint is that the pie increases, and so all should benefit. That may be true, but in addition, the stratification of incomes around that growth also increases, as does the disparity between rich and poor, and this is often missed in the discussion. This is despite increased labour standards, minimum wages and the like.

    In my view, the reason for this is because any 'standardized' economic template becomes less helpful the more general it is, and the larger the group that it is meant to apply to. Local differences and circumstances must always be taken into account. Moreover, these sort of trade deals & arrangements inevitably tend to benefit the big companies at the expense of the little guy, who is the engine of economic growth in many cases. Lord Digby's arguments in the clip on the previous page hits the nail on the head in my view.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,335
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Ooowh exactly. There's already too much emotion stockpiling on this referendum. Some rationalism has already been replaced by emotional responses and a sense of British nationalism, whereas the dispassionate set of arguments, summing up both pro's and con's are very much invisible. And I do think that recent events, like the hooligan riots at Euro 2016 between English and Russian supporters, the Donald Trump bigotry and the recent terrorist attacks in Paris, Brussels and now Orlando are helping the "Leave" camp.
    Something of which you, obviously, haven't been guilty, right?

    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »

    It's a unique entity, construction, that we 'all' built from the ground up back in the 1940's. You call it a 'monster' that needs to be destroyed entirely, I call it an entity that we need to change into a more efficient, less bureaucratic and more democratic entity.
    Nope, never said that. Try reading.
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    And you are asking for the impossible with your flawed comparisons, like Erdogan. You just don't get the complexity of the immigration politics. In an ideal world, an ideal European Union, we could have been much more effective at stopping immigrants. But you don't want it, and therefore you continue slamming the EU for having difficulty to make treaties with Erdogan.
    So now I'm too stupid to understand immigration problems, and at the same time you tell me that it makes sense the EU can't handle her problems? Make up your mind!
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Your comparisons with Israel and Singapore are IMO also flawed. Those countries are basically ruled on undemocratic executive orders or flawed oligarchic and neo-religious behavior. And in fact, Israel isn't doing very well economically. Tons of their budget are squandered through unnecessary defense tactics that only keep the nation alive in an artificial way.
    What the hell is that? As far as I know there's little 'Neo' about the Jewish people. And what does their believe have to do with theri economy? It isn't their defense spending that makes their economy efficient, on the contrary. It's a huge burden and still thay make it run smoothly.
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Your call for destruction of the EU is entirely right-wing populist. You don't even consider more nuanced and effective changes for the current EU. But then again, if one votes PVV that will never happen. They only ask for the destruction of the EU and never give more nuanced solutions to very complex problems. You can turn complex problems into populist marketing slogans that your people eat like chocolate. But I am searching for politicians who have the guts to explain difficult solutions into clear and understandable measures. We won't get that from ultra-left-wing populists and ultra-right-wing-populists.
    I have been tolerant to you before, but this is nothing less then a personal attack and slander. You seem to think that because I see things differently I'm a right wing populist and 'don't understand' what's going on. I'll have you know I'm higher educated then you, have seen almost every European country and many outside the EU, speak three languages and studied European history. Not that all this is a guarantee to see things right, but it might incline you that I actually do know what I'm talking about. Try looking in a mirror before you attack someone else. And for the record, I've never voted PVV and never will.

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    It's funny watching prime minister questions, that labour MP, who spoke to the
    workers in the pottery factory and listened to all those workers saying how they
    wanted to leave the EU. ( video posted by @patb )
    She just got up and asked a question about how sensible it would be to stay
    in the EU, totally against the views of her constituents! :))
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    edited June 2016 Posts: 389
    This whole referendum is not like a general election when you have to vote for a politician because we need a government. This vote is a yes or no, I believe there is a feeling within the country to give the political classes, who have repeatedly ignored public opinion, a bl**dy good thrashing & thus send a concrete message to parliament.

    As to @CommanderRoss, well said old man @Gustav_Graves has been well out of order in this discussion.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I think you are right @SpectreNumberTwo people are so frustrated after years of
    being ignored, a chance to give a bloody nose.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »

    The problem with your UK referendums is this: They are too much part of party politics. Powers within the UK political parties many times 'fear' these referendums too much, and thee options for these referendums are negotiated as if it's monopoly. It's dangerous. Now you have only two options.....with the Brexit-referendum. And obviously it facilitates two completely disconnected camps.

    A referendum like that about the independence of Scotland and a Brexit should be treated much more carefully. It's not monopoly.

    David Cameron should have created more options and put a referendum front-centre first, like:

    A) Secede from the European Union
    B) Renegotiate the terms of the current EU-membership and apply them
    C) Stay inside the European Union
    D) Stay inside the European Union, with an opt-out for the nations of the UK

    By doing so, you force the people to better think about the issues. And you are steering the discussion in a more positive direction.

    Finally a very good post (although it's plagiarising something I have said many times but that's fine).

    If those options were on the table I think either B or D would romp home and A would get single figures.

    But of course Cameron didn't want to word it like that because then it highlights how shit his much trumpeted renegotiation really was.

    At the time they worded it Remain had a massive lead and it looked very unlikely that Leave could win but then the Remainers went and monumentally f**ked up their campaign.

    Despite UKIP getting more and more popular over the past few years they still thought it was enough to call anyone who wanted Brexit a racist little Englander. That might play well in Islington but the rest of the country are sick of that being the extent of the debate.

    The whole thing should be about economics but it's now boiled down to a referendum on how sick people are of politicians.
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    @patb that was a really Interesting video and I'd urge all to watch it. Ordinary people
    Giving their views, I agree that the Labour party is totally out of touch with their voters,
    As many see them now as a left wing of the conservative party and not a party for the
    Working class.
    I also agree that for the middle and upper class, The EU has been a good thing, they've
    Done very well out if it but for the working class it's been very bad. ( and I count myself
    In that group) it was refreshing to hear the ordinary people give their views rather than
    The usual politicians. These people!e are bigots, racists or extremist, merely people who
    Want a fair deal.

    I hate the class system in the UK because IT like the EU stifles dreams. I'll tell you one thing though, most people I know are for OUT & they represent a complete cross section of society, so I'm beginning to believe OUT is a real possibility.

    It's a bit of a joke to think anything is going to really change though. Even if Brexit wins in 6 months time we will have a new PM who also went to Eton and studied classics at Oxford. Plus ca change.
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    DC and Osbourne will have nice jobs lined up on various boards, like a Bond villain planning their escape!

    Not a chance successful companies wouldn't hire the 'Chuckle Brothers' to clean their executive toilets. :D

    Well EON need someone to write B25....

    Could they be any worse than Chuckle Brothers P&W.?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    This is very similar to the Trump/Sanders phenomenon in the US. Despite both candidates having deep & well documented flaws, they are being used as symbols to send a broader message to the political elite.

    "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!"
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Although it fun to see Nigel Farage and Bob Geldof recreating the thames boat chase
    from TWINE. :D
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    This whole referendum is not like a general election when you have to vote for a politician because we need a government. This vote is a yes or no, I believe there is a feeling within the country to give the political classes, who have repeatedly ignored public opinion, a bl**dy good thrashing & thus send a concrete message to parliament.

    As to @CommanderRoss, well said old man @Gustav_Graves has been well out of order in this discussion.

    I....can't believe it. I just can't believe you say that. Read my post on the last page about how a referendum was organized in the past....
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I think we're all passionate in our views ( don't get me started on the musical
    fantasticy of The Lady Gaga ) so I enjoy reading all posts, even those I don't
    agree with. :)
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    edited June 2016 Posts: 389
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    I think we're all passionate in our views ( don't get me started on the musical
    fantasticy of The Lady Gaga ) so I enjoy reading all posts, even those I don't
    agree with. :)

    @Gustav_Graves P...P...P...Poker Face...... :D
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,335
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    This whole referendum is not like a general election when you have to vote for a politician because we need a government. This vote is a yes or no, I believe there is a feeling within the country to give the political classes, who have repeatedly ignored public opinion, a bl**dy good thrashing & thus send a concrete message to parliament.

    As to @CommanderRoss, well said old man @Gustav_Graves has been well out of order in this discussion.

    I....can't believe it. I just can't believe you say that. Read my post on the last page about how a referendum was organized in the past....

    Why is it that when you're called out on your own words, you ignore everything, yet if someone says something not in line with your views you fall over in amazement and refer to something you've said before?

  • FLeiterFLeiter
    Posts: 315
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    I think we're all passionate in our views ( don't get me started on the musical
    fantasticy of The Lady Gaga ) so I enjoy reading all posts, even those I don't
    agree with. :)

    Ran into Lady Gaga(sans makeup) last week at a Chicago shopping mall. She married a Chicago guy. Still a beauty.

  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    patb wrote: »
    "At the end of the day it is all about economics"

    Not true and something that the inners have missed. They have chosen a strategy of focusing on economics and lost sight of the bigger picture. This is about national and cultural identity. What exactly does it mean to be Great Britain? What exactly does it mean to be British? What do we want our country to look and feel like? To ignore these issues and try to buy the vote with cash (or the threat of less cash if voting out) has been a bad error IMHO. Plus, especially on the Lab side, to constantly imply that those who are concerned with immigration are racist is no way to gain support. Only now has the penny dropped and its far too late. It just confirms that the political elite are very out of touch with what the priorities of the voters are. The inner campaign has been one dimensional and lacking in empathy and insight. That does not surprise me from the DC team but Lab have been equally bad. They deserve to lose.

    PS much discussion re Scotland breaking away and joining EU if there is an out vote. But what if we vote in as GB but England votes out? I have seen little discussion concerning that scenario

    Actually agree with a lot of what you say.

    Actually the Remain side arguably lost the argument years ago because the Tory leadership have never said anything positive about Europe for years. The propaganda has been an endless negative flow of misinformation about how awful the EU is for decades. As a result the British electorate are totally ignorant of all the profound and deeply important underlying benefits (not just economic) that have flowed from EU membership.
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    Posts: 389
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    I....can't believe it. I just can't believe you say that. Read my post on the last page about how a referendum was organized in the past....

    Not sure what your bitching about, do you actually read anything anyone else says without piling in like a Russian Hooligan?
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    Jaguar Land Rover just announced record sales in the EU in May. Sales up over 20% there - just slightly behind sales growth in China. So much for the EU being a drag on the British economy.

    And the amazing thing is, they are exporting to the EU AND the rest of the world at the same time.

    Wow. The JLR management must be doing something wrong... Surely.

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    With every good news story, comes a bad one. The British fishermen
    Don't seem to be getting a good deal out of it. ;) ..... decisions, decisions.
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    You're right. If we vote out our automotive industry might be screwed but at least we get our fish back!
  • MyNameIsMyBondRnMyNameIsMyBondRn WhereYouLeastExpectMeToBe
    Posts: 221
    It Will Be Harder To Keep The British End Up...!
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Very good point.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    edited June 2016 Posts: 13,384
    Car sales up 20% well that will all stop once these big tariffs go on :D
    And you're right F*ck the British fishing industry, lazy b*stards to a man.
    They're obviously working class, better this Industry is lost to foreign Interests.
    I bet they read the Sun Too ;) well said that man.
  • MyNameIsMyBondRnMyNameIsMyBondRn WhereYouLeastExpectMeToBe
    Posts: 221
    The Tuna will be more expensive, the al tonno will be more expensive..!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Fish is overrated, I prefer some German sausage. As indeed we all will in years
    To come ! :))
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    edited June 2016 Posts: 389
    Only one slight issue with Jaguar Land Rover, owned by the Indian company TATA, so a lot of the profits go off shore but that's business.
This discussion has been closed.