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I was going to say something similar. Not only were two world wars fought to keep the Germans from dominating the continent, but the previous two hundred years of British foreign policy were dedicated to the balance of power on the continent. Now the UK is just going to give up. No country is Europe is strong enough to challenge Germany, certainly not the UK. France+UK could, but with the UK out of the EU a Anglo-Franco alliance becomes unthinkable. I don't particularly care one way or another except how it affects the US, just an interesting historical tidbit.
;) You Know My Name ... & you know where I'm from too, I take it.
I do not feel qualified to comment on whether Britain should stay or go now ... hey! (now I must get The Clash out of my head!) ... because I have not studied this issue at all. But I am hoping whatever the decision is, that is has positive ramifications for the U.K. of course.
What I find interesting in this discussion is some of the parallels with regards to opinions on immigration and centralized government in the US. As much as Europeans may not like Trump, what he represents to the average American is just that.
As I remember correctly, UK is not even part of the Schengen convention so in theory nobody can freely cross the border. Moreover, many other European countries have closed their borders (i.e. Slovenia, Austria, Hungary) to keep things under control.
There have been EU funded projects in Britain too. In Wales alone there have been 290 projects funded by the EU between 2007 and 2013. In total for £1,979,025,442. From 2014-2020 Welsh economy will be supported for £500m by the EU (http://gov.wales/funding/eu-funds/?lang=en).
In England, thanks to the European Regional Development Fund, 24,767 businesses have been able to start up or been moved to local areas. That created 114,889 jobs for local people.(Here is a list of projects: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/erdf-programmes-progress-and-achievements). I could go on but don't have the time.
Therefore, I won't comment Scotland. But they are apparently quite pro-European. I've heard they are planning a new referendum if Britain votes against EU.
I know I used a terrible stereotype, I'm glad it made you angry and it just proves my point. It's equally insulting to state that you Brits are too polite and good-natured while Greeks riot streets and "Frogs" have strikes all the time.
Just think of the funds we would have available for such projects with the cash we have saved by not being a member.
We have a guy at work who was actually in the Bataclan so I'm sure he was overjoyed to see Merkel's 'everyone welcome' policy in effect first hand.
Thanks for the info but quoting how much I am also rinsed by Wales as well doesn't really appease me. If we could get rid of these other three hangers on as well as Europe and have English independence I'd be even more likely to vote out.
In any event this diagram from lefty missive The Guardian (which is undoubtedly pro 'in' so these figures are actually probably much worse) seems to refute your notion that we get value for money:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2012/01/26/EU27_Money.pdf
I admit I erred in saying the Frogs strike 'all the time'. There were no strikes on the 19th, 20th and 21st of Feb:
http://www.cestlagreve.fr
As for the Greeks it doesn't take a lot to get them going does it? And whenever there seems to be footage of a load of MP's having a rumble in parliament it's usually Greece or Italy. I'm really at a loss to see what they bring to the table apart from an economy that belongs in the third world not the EU. Being part of a union that ties your fate intractably with a partner as shambolic as Greece is more than reason enough to vote out.
PS - some great points @patb.
Bottom line -In will be stronger for all, but weaker for Britain (since loss of sovereignty is inevitable). Out will be weaker for all, but sovereignty (whatever that means in the grand scheme of things over the long run) will be retained.
Thank goodness for the English channel - a natural border of sorts.
I love visiting Europe as much as the next man and having lived and worked there would actually class myself as European and really can't envisage living permanently in any other continent so please no homilies about what's great about our wonderful continent.
It's just I don't trust them in the slightest with my money and to do anything even remotely in the interests of England.
And if people have so little sense of humour as to be insulted by the term 'frog' then they really shouldn't be in any sort of agreement with the British because taking the piss is possibly the most fundamental British human right of all.
Besides most Frogs I have met give a typical Gallic shrug of indifference call us Rosbifs and then get on with drinking red wine and committing infidelities.
Governments cant really govern if certain variables are out of their hands and border control is one of the criteria IMHO. It was a dreadful decision with hindsight and Blair has virtually admitted that he never got a grip on the numbers and DC despite all of his bluster, has inherited a hopeless situation, hopeless that is, unless we regain control.
I was probably going to vote 'in' but this non-deal swung me. Had a stronger leader gone and negotiated something better I would probably still be veering towards in.
But such are the vagaries of history. The future of millions hinges on chance putting a certain man as leader at a certain time.
Yes, many countries will still be in NATO. But it's unthinkable that an EU country would be in a closer partnership with a major non-EU country against a fellow EU country. There's no chance for Britain to balance Germany outside the EU.
And if there is real danger for a majority for leaving the EU, some forces will manipulate the voting results.
The polls are averaging 51/49. We know they can be wrong so its very very close but, yes, the establishment will always have the upper hand. They have a few tricks up their sleeve (they brought in the Royals a few days before the scots vote)
On balance I'll probably be voting OUT.
The IMF have predicted another recession for us if we leave.
( Strange they couldn't see the Banks failing, leading to the the total
bankruptcy of many countries ) but they have the predictive powers
to see this.
The Peace in N.Ireland will collapse ( acording to William Haig ) and
the possibility of war in Europe is almost certain said David Cameron.
:))
Seriously the next prediction must be that if the UK leaves there will be
an Alien invasion, or Zombie Apocalypse ! :D
Don't forget half of immigration comes from outside of the EU - they have no right of free movement, but still come.
As an aside, I was watching the politics show, and there was a politician arguing we need to curb European immigration so that we could relax non-EU migration rules - particularly from India to solve an apparent curry-chef shortage!
As part of the UK was to keep its EU membership.
( as much was made that they'd have to reapply to join )
If Now they were dragged out of the EU because they were part of the very
same UK. :D