The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

1171820222362

Comments

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I wondered how soon someone would try and link this tragic event, to their view
    On the debate :( I think that is in very poor taste, and will leave this debate, and
    Will vote as my conscience tells me to on Thursday.
    It's terrible to think this disgusting act has happened and it's already being used
    By some, for their own petty, political points.
  • Posts: 11,119
    The rationalism and nuance in society, western society, has been said farewell ever since 9/11. Our western society is crumbling apart. Emotions is what it is about these days. And it won't change. Today...I silently put my head between my knees. I'm.....so tired, tired, TIRED af all the violence, the aggression, the fingerpointing. Dear God. Please help us.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I wondered how soon someone would try and link this tragic event, to their view
    On the debate :( I think that is in very poor taste, and will leave this debate, and
    Will vote as my conscience tells me to on Thursday.
    It's terrible to think this disgusting act has happened and it's already being used
    By some, for their own petty, political points.

    If the man as some witnesses reported shouted "Britain first" it in an inescapable consequence.



  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2016 Posts: 9,117
    I wondered how soon someone would try and link this tragic event, to their view
    On the debate :( I think that is in very poor taste, and will leave this debate, and
    Will vote as my conscience tells me to on Thursday.
    It's terrible to think this disgusting act has happened and it's already being used
    By some, for their own petty, political points.

    Quite. The assumption that seems to be casually bandied about that voting Brexit means you are a rabid racist would be considered a police matter were it targeted at Muslims or racial groups.

    This was a nutter who has nothing in common with millions of ordinary people on both sides of the camp.

    It's a tragedy for sure but an irrelevance to the issues of the vote.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    We've had a heated referendum not even two years ago. Since then the discussion has taken a definite turn for the worse as this very thread gives ample proof of. And it's by far not the worst reflection of the current state of affairs in our country. When I heard he news I was initially disgusted like every person in their right mind should be. But, sad as it is, I was not surprised. A debate which is largely lead by smear campaigns, hate speech and constant demonisation will sooner or later find it's nasty conclusion in violence. Whichever way the referendum goes, we would be well advised to consider that the other side is not going to give in and disappear come Friday next week.
  • Posts: 233
    Obviously the fact that this nutter may have been motivated by right wing or anti-European tendencies should have no reflection on the millions of perfectly sensible people who also hold such views, just as Islamic extremism has little to do with the vast majority of law-abiding Muslims. But I do believe we need to ask serious questions about the direction of politics in this country, and if we want our debates to continue in such a vitriolic and reactionary direction. Otherwise this sort of violence, isolated as it may be, is all but inevitable.
  • This has nothing to do with the topic we have been discussing & anyone who tries to link it is below contempt, this lunstic seems to have associated himself or at least has sympathies with the far right fascist group 'Britain First', it's all about the fine work Jo Cox did to promote, help & support refugees, since & before she became an MP. These bigots are white supremacist scum & if it wasn't for my belief in free speech & non censorship I'd like to get rid of their like but that would be hypocritical & this is not the time for rhetoric.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    It is perhaps best expressed in the Spectator comment, we created (or at least didn't prevent) a political climate where it's perfectly acceptable for any raving disreputable character to foam and shriek like a football hooligan and behave like it were the most ordinary thing to be as despicable as possible in public discourse. How can this not have an effect? What passes for political culture right now is the reign of the pied pipers. We better put a stop to it in time.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I am sorry it has something to do with what we have discussed these last days, months here is a person who is willing to go all out to attack somebody who has a different opinion.
    This is about the risk of democracy that loons decide to go beyond our limits of civil behaviour. But these folks are also part of our society who take part in this discussion. And lets face it this attack at a politician does not stand alone it has happened before and will again.
    While I am sure nobody wanted this act of violence but we cannot act like we are surprised with the level of unrest these last days in the UK. We can count ourselves lucky that so many idiots are currently abroad spreading the British love.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    This is very local to me I live in Leeds in West Yorkshire and I'm deeply shocked by this horrible event.

    No this shouldn't be spun into some kind of political tool but I think it's clear it's linked to Brexit and that there has been too much of this whipping people up into a frenzy, both sides have been doing their fair share of scaremongering, UKIPS latest poster is an utter disgrace.

    To try and say it isn't is being rather naive, the likes of Farage are just stoking the fires and now look what we've got, it's a very sad day.
  • Posts: 4,617
    The Guardian posted an article from a local paper that was published a few years ago where the alleged attacker had spoken openly and candidly about his depression and how voluntary work in local gardens had really helped him deal with his illness. I am not in anyway supporting this guy but we need to consider all of the options including severe mental illness etc. This is an area which society still has not come to terms with and labeling this sector of society as "loons" does little to help the situation. Lets not be too quick to judge and let all of the facts come out.

  • edited June 2016 Posts: 389
    For all the BS that is our opinion, I'm an anarchist, because I believe in the rule of the people, I believe in freedom, I believe in humanity, I don't believe in God, but I do believe in Good. At this moment I think Lennon said it best.........Imagine!

  • Posts: 7,653
    patb wrote: »
    The Guardian posted an article from a local paper that was published a few years ago where the alleged attacker had spoken openly and candidly about his depression and how voluntary work in local gardens had really helped him deal with his illness. I am not in anyway supporting this guy but we need to consider all of the options including severe mental illness etc. This is an area which society still has not come to terms with and labeling this sector of society as "loons" does little to help the situation. Lets not be too quick to judge and let all of the facts come out.

    Why blame it on mental illness, this man was very calculating in his attack, perhaps his defense will be mental madness. Having worked with criminals in a criminal mental institution I sometimes wondered how "crazy" they really were.
    Perhaps it easier to file away as a mental patient does something horrible than admit to a blatant political assassination. A killing is more often than not the result of a strong emotional state in which a killing happens. And we know that the recent weeks were not exactly a rational affair when it comes to the arguments of Brexit.

    Some posters actually admitted that they were not swayed by rational arguments but emotional. Which leads in extremis to aggression.

  • Posts: 233
    Obviously individuals need to be held to account for their own actions, but I also think there's a certain degree of complacency when we just chalk up these attacks to lone-wolf nutters and move on. Everyone is the product of something, and we can't divorce these attackers entirely from their social/religious/political background, otherwise nothing is going to change. Just like we should be asking questions about the teachings of certain Islamic interpretations, we should also look within our own society and ask how it can contribute towards such hatred. The Orlando shooter, for example, existed within an atmosphere of often intense homophobia, and I don't believe it's entirely a coincidence that an MP has been murdered during a period of political polarisation and division. Mental health is always a factor, but the impetus is often quite clear if you do a little bit of digging.

    It's not about co-opting a tragedy to further an agenda, or blaming an entire group for the actions of an individual, but we should be asking how we can act to prevent such a descent.
  • Posts: 4,617
    "Why blame it on mental illness," I am not blaming it on anything, like I said, lets wait for the facts but mental illness is one option (of many)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Most of these individuals have a history of mental illness and/or social discomfort. It's prevalent everywhere. They tend to be younger and maladjusted to society as a whole.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 389
    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, can you people on this tragic day just stop f**king having a go at each other, Mods please just end this post.
  • Posts: 4,617
    In 2011, he was photographed by the local paper volunteering in nearby Oakwell Hall country park. The previous year he was quoted in the Huddersfield Daily Examiner, saying he had begun volunteering after attending Pathways Day Centre for adults with mental health problems.

    “I can honestly say it has done me more good than all the psychotherapy and medication in the world,” he said. “Many people who suffer from mental illness are socially isolated and disconnected from society, feelings of worthlessness are also common, mainly caused by long-term unemployment.”

    He added: “All these problems are alleviated by doing voluntary work. Getting out of the house and meeting new people is a good thing, but more important in my view is doing physically demanding and useful labour.

    “When you have finished there is a feeling of achievement which is emotionally rewarding and psychologically fulfilling. For people for whom full-time, paid employment is not possible for a variety of reasons, voluntary work offers a socially positive and therapeutic alternative.”
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    I wondered how soon someone would try and link this tragic event, to their view
    On the debate :( I think that is in very poor taste, and will leave this debate, and
    Will vote as my conscience tells me to on Thursday.
    It's terrible to think this disgusting act has happened and it's already being used
    By some, for their own petty, political points.

    Quite. The assumption that seems to be casually bandied about that voting Brexit means you are a rabid racist would be considered a police matter were it targeted at Muslims or racial groups.

    This was a nutter who has nothing in common with millions of ordinary people on both sides of the camp.

    It's a tragedy for sure but an irrelevance to the issues of the vote.

    I'm not trying to score political points, I am simply observing what the impact of this is likely to be on the referendum. Had Farage been shot by a rabid Remainer, it would obviously have won sympathy for the Leave campaign. That's just human nature.

    It doesn't require me or anyone else to to say that this horrific act and the tone of the Brexit campaign are in some way connected - millions of people all over the UK will already be doing that themselves. Even the 'right wing' media are saying it - look at all those Spectator comment pieces that have been published the same day.

    Many will now have that gut sense that something is going very seriously wrong in our country right now, and this is just the most violent manifestation of it. The signs have been there for a while.

    Yes, the vast majority of Brexit supporters are decent and believe in their cause for honourable reasons, but something about this Leave campaign also feeds into and legitimises the worst tendencies of the nationalistic and small minded. The Farage wing of the Leave campaign have been playing with Fire.

    To make this observation is not to make political capital of the situation. It's just stating the obvious.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    It would be a shame if this influenced the vote, just like it would be a shame if Trump were to get more votes on account of that nutbag in Orlando. Inevitably, there will be some spillover no doubt. The psychological impact will have an effect on the margin against the leave vote most likely, but the question is how much.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Its very hard, we are eight days from the vote and people from different perspectives are extrapolating from this what they want and fitting it with their existing agenda. Following the Orlando shooting, The Guardian were very quick to point out he was a lone wolf and that we should not assume all Muslims are homophobic etc etc. But today, their editorial seems happy to link todays death with the wider issue of racism within the out campaign and mentions Farage within the article. So they are happy to make generalisations when it fits their agenda but not on other issues.
    There is no way that the Police can get all of the facts before polling day. I really do fear that this horrible death may become highly politicized within the next week and a desperate inner campaign who are clearly on the back foot seek to gain leverage and brand the whole out campaign as racist before we know the full facts about this single horrible act.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    I wondered how soon someone would try and link this tragic event, to their view
    On the debate :( I think that is in very poor taste, and will leave this debate, and
    Will vote as my conscience tells me to on Thursday.
    It's terrible to think this disgusting act has happened and it's already being used
    By some, for their own petty, political points.

    Quite. The assumption that seems to be casually bandied about that voting Brexit means you are a rabid racist would be considered a police matter were it targeted at Muslims or racial groups.

    This was a nutter who has nothing in common with millions of ordinary people on both sides of the camp.

    It's a tragedy for sure but an irrelevance to the issues of the vote.

    I'm not trying to score political points, I am simply observing what the impact of this is likely to be on the referendum. Had Farage been shot by a rabid Remainer, it would obviously have won sympathy for the Leave campaign. That's just human nature.

    It doesn't require me or anyone else to to say that this horrific act and the tone of the Brexit campaign are in some way connected - millions of people all over the UK will already be doing that themselves. Even the 'right wing' media are saying it - look at all those Spectator comment pieces that have been published the same day.

    Many will now have that gut sense that something is going very seriously wrong in our country right now, and this is just the most violent manifestation of it. The signs have been there for a while.

    Yes, the vast majority of Brexit supporters are decent and believe in their cause for honourable reasons, but something about this Leave campaign also feeds into and legitimises the worst tendencies of the nationalistic and small minded. The Farage wing of the Leave campaign have been playing with Fire.

    To make this observation is not to make political capital of the situation. It's just stating the obvious.

    Would you be saying the same about Islam if the guy had been a Muslim?
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    I wondered how soon someone would try and link this tragic event, to their view
    On the debate :( I think that is in very poor taste, and will leave this debate, and
    Will vote as my conscience tells me to on Thursday.
    It's terrible to think this disgusting act has happened and it's already being used
    By some, for their own petty, political points.

    Quite. The assumption that seems to be casually bandied about that voting Brexit means you are a rabid racist would be considered a police matter were it targeted at Muslims or racial groups.

    This was a nutter who has nothing in common with millions of ordinary people on both sides of the camp.

    It's a tragedy for sure but an irrelevance to the issues of the vote.

    I'm not trying to score political points, I am simply observing what the impact of this is likely to be on the referendum. Had Farage been shot by a rabid Remainer, it would obviously have won sympathy for the Leave campaign. That's just human nature.

    It doesn't require me or anyone else to to say that this horrific act and the tone of the Brexit campaign are in some way connected - millions of people all over the UK will already be doing that themselves. Even the 'right wing' media are saying it - look at all those Spectator comment pieces that have been published the same day.

    Many will now have that gut sense that something is going very seriously wrong in our country right now, and this is just the most violent manifestation of it. The signs have been there for a while.

    Yes, the vast majority of Brexit supporters are decent and believe in their cause for honourable reasons, but something about this Leave campaign also feeds into and legitimises the worst tendencies of the nationalistic and small minded. The Farage wing of the Leave campaign have been playing with Fire.

    To make this observation is not to make political capital of the situation. It's just stating the obvious.

    Would you be saying the same about Islam if the guy had been a Muslim?

    Well, firstly, all I'm doing is observing that even the right wing media are already extrapolating from this murder that there is a connection to the tone of the referendum campaign and specifically that of Farage and co. That's a fact - look at the Spectator, which is right of centre and usually fairly Eurosceptic.

    And secondly, yes I would connect violent Islamic fundamentalism with a general tendency towards intolerance and acceptance of violence as a means to an end within Islam.

    That doesn't mean I tar all Muslims or Leavers with the same brush as their most extreme brethren, but I am not one who buys the Obama line that Islam in general and violent extremism are totally unrelated.

    Farage has been playing the anti foreigner, xenophobic and frankly racist card unashamedly, and so its not totally surprising that those who only need a little encouragement take things that bit further. People have been warning about this even before today's events.

    I myself was already worried about what forces a Brexit win might release. It's not hard to imagine a bit of mosque smashing next Thursday night if Leave win. I imagine there are quite a few places around the country where anyone who is not white might think twice about going out for a drink that evening if Leave wins.

    As I say, Farage has been playing with fire. It's not as if people haven't been warning something like this might happen.
  • Posts: 233
    Getafix wrote: »
    I wondered how soon someone would try and link this tragic event, to their view
    On the debate :( I think that is in very poor taste, and will leave this debate, and
    Will vote as my conscience tells me to on Thursday.
    It's terrible to think this disgusting act has happened and it's already being used
    By some, for their own petty, political points.

    Quite. The assumption that seems to be casually bandied about that voting Brexit means you are a rabid racist would be considered a police matter were it targeted at Muslims or racial groups.

    This was a nutter who has nothing in common with millions of ordinary people on both sides of the camp.

    It's a tragedy for sure but an irrelevance to the issues of the vote.

    I'm not trying to score political points, I am simply observing what the impact of this is likely to be on the referendum. Had Farage been shot by a rabid Remainer, it would obviously have won sympathy for the Leave campaign. That's just human nature.

    It doesn't require me or anyone else to to say that this horrific act and the tone of the Brexit campaign are in some way connected - millions of people all over the UK will already be doing that themselves. Even the 'right wing' media are saying it - look at all those Spectator comment pieces that have been published the same day.

    Many will now have that gut sense that something is going very seriously wrong in our country right now, and this is just the most violent manifestation of it. The signs have been there for a while.

    Yes, the vast majority of Brexit supporters are decent and believe in their cause for honourable reasons, but something about this Leave campaign also feeds into and legitimises the worst tendencies of the nationalistic and small minded. The Farage wing of the Leave campaign have been playing with Fire.

    To make this observation is not to make political capital of the situation. It's just stating the obvious.

    Would you be saying the same about Islam if the guy had been a Muslim?

    I think the important point here is differentiating between individuals and institutions. Obviously we shouldn't be blaming individual Muslims or Brexiters for the actions of a minority, but we should ask questions about their beliefs and the institutions that they subscribe to. For example, I think it's entirely appropriate to question the teachings of Islam and how these ideas are communicated/interpreted, particularly among young and disenfranchised Muslims. But we shouldn't blame or victimise individual Muslims, most of whom are entirely moderate and law-abiding. I think you can attach the same attitude to the referendum campaign - most people have entirely honourable intentions in campaigning for the Leave side, but I think it's clear that the tone of the debate has inflamed some rather ugly prejudices within a minority.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 4,617
    Below is just a small example of how the media report things and they become facts when, at the moment, we just dont know. The guy is quoted re the "Britain First" quote and then says he was not there and stuck in traffic. So what he meant was that he has spoken to someone who said they heard etc (chinese whispers). So he is simply not a witness at all. I am not saying that this was not said. We just dont know at the moment.

    "Aamir Tahir, of the Dry Clean Centre, said the gunman was heard shouting "Britain first".

    He said: "The lady I work with heard two loud bangs but I wasn't there, I was stuck in traffic at the time. I wish I was there because I would have tried to stop him.

    "The whole street thinks it was me but it wasn't. Apparently the guy who did it shouted 'Britain first' and if I had been there I would have tackled him."


    Also, we seem to be assuming that this killing is actually linked to the EU vote. This guy may have made the attack anyway . We are assuming that there is a causal link between the vote and the killing but with no causal evidence.(as yet)
  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    I wondered how soon someone would try and link this tragic event, to their view
    On the debate :( I think that is in very poor taste, and will leave this debate, and
    Will vote as my conscience tells me to on Thursday.
    It's terrible to think this disgusting act has happened and it's already being used
    By some, for their own petty, political points.

    Quite. The assumption that seems to be casually bandied about that voting Brexit means you are a rabid racist would be considered a police matter were it targeted at Muslims or racial groups.

    This was a nutter who has nothing in common with millions of ordinary people on both sides of the camp.

    It's a tragedy for sure but an irrelevance to the issues of the vote.

    I'm not trying to score political points, I am simply observing what the impact of this is likely to be on the referendum. Had Farage been shot by a rabid Remainer, it would obviously have won sympathy for the Leave campaign. That's just human nature.

    It doesn't require me or anyone else to to say that this horrific act and the tone of the Brexit campaign are in some way connected - millions of people all over the UK will already be doing that themselves. Even the 'right wing' media are saying it - look at all those Spectator comment pieces that have been published the same day.

    Many will now have that gut sense that something is going very seriously wrong in our country right now, and this is just the most violent manifestation of it. The signs have been there for a while.

    Yes, the vast majority of Brexit supporters are decent and believe in their cause for honourable reasons, but something about this Leave campaign also feeds into and legitimises the worst tendencies of the nationalistic and small minded. The Farage wing of the Leave campaign have been playing with Fire.

    To make this observation is not to make political capital of the situation. It's just stating the obvious.

    Would you be saying the same about Islam if the guy had been a Muslim?

    I think the important point here is differentiating between individuals and institutions. Obviously we shouldn't be blaming individual Muslims or Brexiters for the actions of a minority, but we should ask questions about their beliefs and the institutions that they subscribe to. For example, I think it's entirely appropriate to question the teachings of Islam and how these ideas are communicated/interpreted, particularly among young and disenfranchised Muslims. But we shouldn't blame or victimise individual Muslims, most of whom are entirely moderate and law-abiding. I think you can attach the same attitude to the referendum campaign - most people have entirely honourable intentions in campaigning for the Leave side, but I think it's clear that the tone of the debate has inflamed some rather ugly prejudices within a minority.

    Exactly

  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    patb wrote: »
    Below is just a small example of how the media report things and they become facts when, at the moment, we just dont know. The guy is quoted re the "Britain First" quote and then says he was not there and stuck in traffic. So what he meant was that he has spoken to someone who said they heard etc (chinese whispers). So he is simply not a witness at all. I am not saying that this was not said. We just dont know at the moment.

    "Aamir Tahir, of the Dry Clean Centre, said the gunman was heard shouting "Britain first".

    He said: "The lady I work with heard two loud bangs but I wasn't there, I was stuck in traffic at the time. I wish I was there because I would have tried to stop him.

    "The whole street thinks it was me but it wasn't. Apparently the guy who did it shouted 'Britain first' and if I had been there I would have tackled him."

    Interesting. Although I think the 'Britain' first' thing is corroborated by others.

    As I said earlier, it's possible that this is primarily a mental health case. Infact it seems this is almost certainly a factor. But the impact on the referendum might still occur.

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Disgusting as the murder was, it's no more disgusting that seeing those who couldn't wait
    to use her death, to boost their own political claims. Instead of having a time for reflection,
    they immediately jumped on their band wagon. Distasteful and shameful to see, although
    they won't see it like that. Because they are so much smarter than the rest of us, and will
    defend their position, but Shame on them.
    Scoring points on a debate on a Bond forum, is more important. Than showing some
    decency and respect.
  • Disgusting as the murder was, it's no more disgusting that seeing those who couldn't wait
    to use her death, to boost their own political claims. Instead of having a time for reflection,
    they immediately jumped on their band wagon. Distasteful and shameful to see, although
    they won't see it like that. Because they are so much smarter than the rest of us, and will
    defend their position, but Shame on them.
    Scoring points on a debate on a Bond forum, is more important. Than showing some
    decency and respect.

    My point exactly all well said sir.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    We have to be honest and acknowledge that in both sides of this Brexit campaign there has been intense scaremongering and borderline hatred between both camps. I am not taking sides, but I note that the 'Out' campaign had vicious and nasty speeches from their representative politicians and hardcore believers, but the 'Stay' side is unable to make arguments without putting fear in people that very bad things will happen if they lose the vote.

    Both sides here will be at fault if, when the results are announced, people will react badly - these scaremongering and borderline hatred speeches from both sides have created an irreconcilable line between both camps.
This discussion has been closed.