The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • edited June 2016 Posts: 4,617
    People are rushing to make connections with little or not evidence. The campaign on both sides could have been the most mild mannered, sensitive, considered, thoughtful etc campaign ever BUT there would have still been a group of right wing extremists (they did not just arrive for the vote, they have been there for decades) and there will always be a vulnerable group of unstable, mentally ill people. We still dont know the facts so its hard to judge. But many are jumping on the band wagon and making a connection between the poor quality of the campaign (it has been dreadful) and the death of an MP. We have no evidence for this causal relationship , none. And yet many seem to be accepting it as fact.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    @patb I wasn't connecting the MP death, I was only pointing out that this very violent/nasty campaign from both sides has created an irreconcilable line between the 'Stay' and 'Out'. I don't know what will happen if the vote goes ahead next week, but whatever the result is there will be nasty things happening from either side's 'hardcore' believers.

    The debate has been very good on MI6community, as expected, but one has to look at other sites like the BBC's 'have your say' or The Guardian's comment section on articles related to Brexit. I don't know how either side will accept it if the other side wins.
  • Posts: 4,617
    No worries, I was not referring to your post, I was referring to many media outlets ,
    Be in no doubt, the vote is going ahead
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 4,617
    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/06/16/alleged-killer-british-mp-was-longtime-supporter-neo-nazi-national-alliance
    no campaigning over the weekend and perhaps recall of parliament on Monday, cant see how the outers can recover , rightly or wrongly, I think this horrible event will be crucial re the result.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Sadly it does show, that extremist methods do work. The actions of one
    Madman has possibly changed history ?
  • Posts: 4,617
    I dont see how it has worked, ?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I can't see the leave vote winning now. I didn't say it worked they way he wanted,
    Merely that his actions have ( probably) changed the out come of the vote.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    It remains to be seen if it will have a meaningful impact on the vote. This is normally how it goes in history. One man's actions (good or bad) have unintended spillover effects with consequential magnitudes. Mohamed Bouazizi's self-immolation in Tunisia is reportedly the start of the Arab Spring. The 'tank man' at Tiananmen Square, etc.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I only hope he will not be remembered, and will become, even less than a footnote
    of history. Another nameless asshole with a grudge !
    I am still so shocked about it, this just doesn't happen in Britain.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Without accurate polls, we will never know what the actual impact is but its just common sense that this could tip the balance, especially with so many voters undecided.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    @patb I wasn't connecting the MP death, I was only pointing out that this very violent/nasty campaign from both sides has created an irreconcilable line between the 'Stay' and 'Out'. I don't know what will happen if the vote goes ahead next week, but whatever the result is there will be nasty things happening from either side's 'hardcore' believers.

    The debate has been very good on MI6community, as expected, but one has to look at other sites like the BBC's 'have your say' or The Guardian's comment section on articles related to Brexit. I don't know how either side will accept it if the other side wins.

    This is Britain not a banana republic or African dictatorship. We're not about to start rioting in the street.

    Once the vote has been cast it will generally be forgotten and life will continue much the same whatever the result. The fact is whichever way it goes we are not going to become a third world country overnight nor are we going to become fabulously wealthy. The most likely outcome is we'll just potter along no different to before.

    'Keep calm and carry on' is not just a slogan it's the British default position in turbulent times.
    Sadly it does show, that extremist methods do work. The actions of one
    Madman has possibly changed history ?

    History is not going to remember this nutter as Gavrilo Princip. It won't even remember him as another Anders Breivik. It will just remember him as a murderer and a loser with mental health issues.
    patb wrote: »
    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/06/16/alleged-killer-british-mp-was-longtime-supporter-neo-nazi-national-alliance
    no campaigning over the weekend and perhaps recall of parliament on Monday, cant see how the outers can recover , rightly or wrongly, I think this horrible event will be crucial re the result.

    I would agree with you that this will have an impact on the vote in much the same way last week the threat of the England team being booted out of Euro 2016 looked likely to have an impact. Outside events do shape history and, callous though it sounds, this shocking act might just have saved the remain campaign. I would be very surprised if this morning there are not a few people inside Cameron's circle who are not mightily relieved to have this fall in their laps. Let's not forget the 'good day to bury bad news' soundbite on 9/11. That's how the grubby world of politics operates. A more cynical person than me might even think that this is a suspiciously conveniently timed occurrence in the remain camp's favour...
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    edited June 2016 Posts: 13,384
    It has most certainly soured the debate, and taken the wind out of the sails of both
    camps.
    On the violent Britain, what has happened to society, not only MPs getting attacked
    In their offices, but Doctors have also complained about very aggressive people.
    A&E wards at Hospitals have to have security guards in stab proof vests ! Because
    Of the attacks .
    When did we become so violent and In fact when did we decide to accept it as part
    Of life ? Why are guards needed at Hospitals ? Why do we accept it ? Why are these
    Thugs not given long sentences for GBH, being drunk can no longer be an excuse.
  • Posts: 4,617
    DC on his way up to the Batley to pay his respects. Not completely comfortable with that. He can pay his respects from Westminster. He knows that Boris and the team cant do the same. Its a strange situation
  • Posts: 11,119
    Sadly it does show, that extremist methods do work. The actions of one
    Madman has possibly changed history ?

    One extremist man can really change history. Just look at this man:
    Gavrilloprincip2.jpg
    His name was Gavrilo Princip. He killed Duke Franz Ferdinand of Austria (the double monarchy Austro-Hungary). It had severe consequences. It was one of the prime causes and a final drop that initiated the First World War, that left Germany broke and hopeless after World War One, and that eventually created the resentment for World War II.

    Now obviously this won't happen with the unnecessary death of Jo Cox MP. But it will influence an hostoric moment: The Brexit Referendum.

    Look, back in 2002 in The Netherlands Pim Fortuyn was killed by a left-wing radical and pshycologically unstable man. It changed the course of politics tremendously in The Netherlands. And it basically created the rise of Geert Wilders' Freedom Party.

    My point: One man can do severe damage to history. And we need to make sure that we make such loners, such psychologically unstable people, these unemployed men with no hope of a future and such 'Muslim terrorists' part of our society again. If we do not enforce our middle class, if we keep destroying social institutions and building hate and bigotry.....then by all means do not be surprised of more of these attacks in the future.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Agreed, all politicians should stay away, and let the people of the area grieve
    In peace.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299

    A more cynical person than me might even think that this is a suspiciously conveniently timed occurrence in the remain camp's favour...


    Thankfully, you'd never ever dare suggest something like it...

    Anyone notice that smell?
  • Remain have announced campaigning will resume tomorrow.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited June 2016 Posts: 4,043
    Campbell2 wrote: »

    A more cynical person than me might even think that this is a suspiciously conveniently timed occurrence in the remain camp's favour...


    Thankfully, you'd never ever dare suggest something like it...

    Anyone notice that smell?

    He has said it so we know he is thinking it. A little bit Oliver Stone don't you think?

    To be honest the scaremongering has come from both camps and no one can take the moral high ground on this one.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    patb wrote: »
    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/06/16/alleged-killer-british-mp-was-longtime-supporter-neo-nazi-national-alliance
    no campaigning over the weekend and perhaps recall of parliament on Monday, cant see how the outers can recover , rightly or wrongly, I think this horrible event will be crucial re the result.

    This is exactly my point.

    Let's not forget either that many of those intending to vote Brexit have been whipped into a frenzy against politicians and the 'elite'. Even members on here have articulated a vote for Brexit as a way of sticking two fingers up to the political class.

    Is everything as disconnected as Thunderpussy wants to suggest?

  • edited June 2016 Posts: 4,617
    Lots of talk about no campaigning and joining together. Would it not be an opportunity for high profile inners and outers to appear together today as a re-assertion of common values before the debate starts again on Monday? I fear the subliminal campaigning is still progressing?
    Mark Carney, (after saying that he did not know or had not met Jo Cox) "The best tribute that this room, this city and the country can give to the memory of Jo Cox is to renew our shared commitment whatever our differences to promote the common good in the United Kingdom and the world.”
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »

    A more cynical person than me might even think that this is a suspiciously conveniently timed occurrence in the remain camp's favour...


    Thankfully, you'd never ever dare suggest something like it...

    Anyone notice that smell?

    He has said it so we know he is thinking it. A little bit Oliver Stone don't you think?

    Probably. If certain people had so vital vested interests in us staying in the EU to drive them to such extreme lengths then I doubt they would have let Joe Public have the chance to vote leave in the first place.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    There are only two choices on the ballot. Any major event prior to the election was going to swing the vote in one direction or the other. Arguably the Orlando shooting may have taken it, on the margin, one way, and this has taken it in the other direction.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Agree but we wont know if it is a decisive swing, for years after the vote, the dabate will now go on "if it was not for the Jo Cox muder, we would have won" and there is a complete consensus that the outers had gained the momentum. Interesting if you research the the murder of Ian Gow MP by the IRA, we are such a different society now re how we handle these things.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Here's an interesting perspective from the ex-Greek Finance Minister. I respected his "thrasos" (as Milos Columbo would put it) when dealing with the EU a few years back.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/eu-like-hotel-california-you-can-never-leave-yanis-varoufakis-1.2688702
  • Posts: 11,425
    It has most certainly soured the debate, and taken the wind out of the sails of both
    camps.
    On the violent Britain, what has happened to society, not only MPs getting attacked
    In their offices, but Doctors have also complained about very aggressive people.
    A&E wards at Hospitals have to have security guards in stab proof vests ! Because
    Of the attacks .
    When did we become so violent and In fact when did we decide to accept it as part
    Of life ? Why are guards needed at Hospitals ? Why do we accept it ? Why are these
    Thugs not given long sentences for GBH, being drunk can no longer be an excuse.

    Not sure this is actually true to be fair.

    My understanding is that crime generally and also violent crime are at historically quite low levels.

    You are less likely to die a violent death today in the UK than at practically any point in history.

    We have lots of problems, but we also too often forget how lucky we are in some respects to live in such relatively prosperous and stable times.

    It's the very unexpectedness of this attack that makes it so shocking. We don't expect our MPs to be physically attacked - that's what you expect in Mexico or Russia.

    Seventy years ago Europe was tearing itself apart - again. We are lucky to be living now when our threats (although significant) are actually not as great.

    I accept though that even if violent crime is relatively low, more needs to be done to stamp out thuggery and antisocial behaviour in schools, hospitals etc. everywhere.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Did any one see the Sky debate with Cameron the other day? There was a young British Moroccon woman in the audience (undecided) who was incredibly rude to Cameron. She was actually the one talking total nonsense but was practically screaming at the PM.

    I remember thinking then what is going on. Fair enough to ask tough questions but show the man a little respect. Whatever he is (and I'm not a Tory) he doesn't deserve this kind of mob hatred.

    As I say, the young woman wasn't pro Brexit or Leave but she was just full of rage.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Agreed, we can have a passionate discussion but you must have respect for
    Others opinions, even if you don't agree with them. After all if your argument
    Is that good, you don't need to be.
  • Posts: 233
    I've campaigned for a political party in the past, and some of the vitriol I recieved from a minority of the public was quite astounding, often on issues that were completely irrelevant to my party or the election.
  • Posts: 7,653
    The best argument against democracy are its voters.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    SaintMark wrote: »
    The best argument against democracy are its voters.
    The best argument against dictators are the humans fulfilling the role... and so it goes for all forms of government.

    And so democracy ends up to beeing the best of the bad.
This discussion has been closed.