The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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Comments

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Watching it now, boy the Remain speakers seem very angry, calling people
    Out by name. :(
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Watching it as well. Remain are not making their case well imho.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Anyone keeping tally of how many times "take back control" has been said?
  • Posts: 11,425
    Not watching but sounds like Khan is possibly not match for BoJo
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Priti Patel looking rather yummy.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Yeah, Remain won it. Sadiq and Ruth blew Leave out of the water.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I must have been watching a different debate, :))
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Remain kind of took it in the last 30mins.
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    That last summing up from Boris I thought that his heart was going to burst its one of the great pity's about the leave campaign they just don't make the case stand up
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    Yeah, Remain won it. Sadiq and Ruth blew Leave out of the water.
    I had not had the chance to hear Ruth speak before this evening I'm impressed by that performance .
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Do it for the sake of the Irish ! ? :))
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Do it for the sake of the Irish ! ? :))

    Yeah, got to admit, that Frances seemed a bit lost at sea at points, coupled with her vilifying of Weatherspoons employees.

    Still, better than Bojo's bumbling.
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    And that was one of BoJos least bumbling performances .
  • PropertyOfALadyPropertyOfALady Colders Federation CEO
    Posts: 3,675
    At the risk of damaging my standing with a few on the forums, I vote Remain. I am an American so my vote doesn't make a difference anyhow.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    So... if you guys remain, how are we going to kick the French out? :-P
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I can't wait for all these American remain voters, start campaigning to remain part
    Of the British Empire ! :)) Or are they happy with their own independence ? :P
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I can't wait for all these American remain voters, start campaigning to remain part
    Of the British Empire ! :)) Or are they happy with their own independence ? :P

    Well exactly.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I can't wait for all these American remain voters, start campaigning to remain part
    Of the British Empire ! :)) Or are they happy with their own independence ? :P

    To be fair, it's no different than those of other nations commenting on my country's upcoming presidential race. We're a globalized, interconnected world, and what happens to one of us can affect all of us relatively easily. I love that people from other lands are taking such a great interest in the nations of others, for the genuine curiosity of it.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    On the American elections, I'm not curious......... I'm scared to Death ! :))
  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    edited June 2016 Posts: 308
    I just have to share this very (in my opinion) good speech:

    On the American elections, I'm not curious......... I'm scared to Death ! :))
    I don't disagree on everything with Trump, but I don't like his attitude and I don't really trust him.
    Too bad Hillary is the only alternative.
    To be fair, it's no different than those of other nations commenting on my country's upcoming presidential race. We're a globalized, interconnected world, and what happens to one of us can affect all of us relatively easily. I love that people from other lands are taking such a great interest in the nations of others, for the genuine curiosity of it.
    Glad you see it that way.

    I think the possibility of a Nexit becomes much larger if Brexit happens. Because the Dutch will see that you can survive very well inside of Europe but outside of the EU.

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    This may not make much sense to some but, from watching the news over the weeks
    I have noticed, that most middle to upper class people. Businessmen etc want to remain.
    While the working class people, factory workers, fishermen etc all seem to want to leave.
    Perhaps this shows, part of the divide. Many low paid workers feel ( rightly or wrongly)
    That the EU has brought them no benefits ?
    Now that is shameful for any organisation , after so many years. To have such a huge
    Section who feel forgotten.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    This may not make much sense to some but, from watching the news over the weeks
    I have noticed, that most middle to upper class people. Businessmen etc want to remain.
    While the working class people, factory workers, fishermen etc all seem to want to leave.
    Perhaps this shows, part of the divide. Many low paid workers feel ( rightly or wrongly)
    That the EU has brought them no benefits ?
    Now that is shameful for any organisation , after so many years. To have such a huge
    Section who feel forgotten.

    I'm not denying that there are many people who feel left behind in the UK, but the same is also the case in the US. They are often victims of globalisation - the shift of manufacturing jobs to lower wage economies and the deregulation of employment rights (the UK has some of the most liberalised employment laws in the developed world).

    However, it's not clear at all that any of this is remotely connected to the EU. If anything (and this is the criticism of the EU from people like Boris), the EU has actually tried to protect ordinary working people's rights in the work place.

    I think what's happened is that in the UK a certain portion of the Conservative Party and the several of the main UK newspapers have developed a slightly irrational hatred for the EU and have for years been telling the British people that everything that goes wrong in the UK is due to the EU. Despite an almost total lack of hard evidence to show that the EU is in any way responsible for the UK's (sometimes imagined) hardships, decades of negative media coverage of the EU have convinced a significant number of people that leaving will somehow magically solve all our problems.

    It's sad really. The economic facts show quite clearly that the UK economy has done better since joining the EU. The UK is still the world's fifth largest economy and has been one of the fastest growing developed economies over recent years. The UK also has relatively low unemployment. As David Cameron has been vainly trying to point out for weeks now, the UK is actually not doing that badly right now. We could do better, and we have for years looked enviously at Germany's success in export-led manufacturing. None of this however suggests that EU membership has been bad for the UK.

    As has been said time and again in this debate, the economic facts simply don't back up what Leave is saying.

    Vote Leave by all means, but it is an argument sold on a false prospectus, and without any genuine factual or economic basis. I understand its emotional appeal, but ultimately that's all it is - a nostalgic appeal to some lost Britain (that probably never actually existed) and a promise of a magic pill solution to complex issues that Brexit will almost certainly fail to solve.

    The UK will not collapse overnight if we leave, but our problems will remain largely the same as before, and probably harder to resolve as our access to our main market comes into doubt. Remember, the UK does more trade with Belgium than we do with India and China combined. If we're intending to develop amazing new trade relationships with the rest of the world, it might have made sense to do that before we left the single market - as it's going to be a lot more difficult once we are outside the EU.

    Purely on a rational basis Brexit is the barmy option. But we seem to be in barmy times right now.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @Thunderpussy, there is a reason for that divide, and it is the same reason there is growing opposition to trade deals and NAFTA across the pond.

    Ultimately, these large arrangements benefit the big corporations at the expense of the little guy. There is more bureaucracy and red tape which larger institutions can more easily comply with. Moreover, in time, due to increased consolidation & power plays, the concentrated industry that remains results in even larger wealth inequality and distribution.

    These points are not noted when economic statistics are bandied about, sadly. The GDP number is promoted, not the wealth distribution number or the industry consolidation number.

    The leave vote is not only upset about a loss of sovereignty. There is a loss of hope as well. In a way, this is an exaggerated element of what is happening globally. Even in countries like India & China, although the pie has grown considerably, the split between citizens has widened like never before. It's also generational.

    We are in for a correction to this, and I hope it can come about by peaceful, democratic means, rather than revolution.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Given how ill divided the wealth of the world is , in America 1% hold 40% of everthing
    the bottom 80% own 20%. Even the middle classes aren't that much better off than the lower
    paid workers.
    I doubt anything will change, until, someone, somewhere upsets their apple cart, by
    lets say voting out of the EU the worlds fifth biggest economy . ;) as even the remain
    camp have agreed, that wages would rise for UK workers, if they left the EU.
  • CatchingBulletsCatchingBullets facebook.com/catchingbullets
    edited June 2016 Posts: 292
    As 007 himself Daniel Craig makes his EU Referendum thoughts known (he's very Remain), Bond producers Barbara Broccoli and Michael G Wilson join a sizeable tally of film producers in underlining just why a Remain vote safeguards British film production in the UK. And if it safeguards British film production in the UK then it safeguards 007 movies.

    "The UK is part of the EU’s MEDIA/Creative Europe Programme which provides significant funding to our film, television and games industries each year. Between 2007 and 2015 our industry benefited from almost €130 million provided by this programme."

    For more from the HOLLYWOOD REPORTER :
    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/uk-producers-oppose-brexit-905409

    #Remain
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    This may not make much sense to some but, from watching the news over the weeks
    I have noticed, that most middle to upper class people. Businessmen etc want to remain.
    While the working class people, factory workers, fishermen etc all seem to want to leave.
    Perhaps this shows, part of the divide. Many low paid workers feel ( rightly or wrongly)
    That the EU has brought them no benefits ?
    Now that is shameful for any organisation , after so many years. To have such a huge
    Section who feel forgotten.

    I'm not denying that there are many people who feel left behind in the UK, but the same is also the case in the US. They are often victims of globalisation - the shift of manufacturing jobs to lower wage economies and the deregulation of employment rights (the UK has some of the most liberalised employment laws in the developed world).

    However, it's not clear at all that any of this is remotely connected to the EU. If anything (and this is the criticism of the EU from people like Boris), the EU has actually tried to protect ordinary working people's rights in the work place.

    I think what's happened is that in the UK a certain portion of the Conservative Party and the several of the main UK newspapers have developed a slightly irrational hatred for the EU and have for years been telling the British people that everything that goes wrong in the UK is due to the EU. Despite an almost total lack of hard evidence to show that the EU is in any way responsible for the UK's (sometimes imagined) hardships, decades of negative media coverage of the EU have convinced a significant number of people that leaving will somehow magically solve all our problems.

    It's sad really. The economic facts show quite clearly that the UK economy has done better since joining the EU. The UK is still the world's fifth largest economy and has been one of the fastest growing developed economies over recent years. The UK also has relatively low unemployment. As David Cameron has been vainly trying to point out for weeks now, the UK is actually not doing that badly right now. We could do better, and we have for years looked enviously at Germany's success in export-led manufacturing. None of this however suggests that EU membership has been bad for the UK.

    As has been said time and again in this debate, the economic facts simply don't back up what Leave is saying.

    Vote Leave by all means, but it is an argument sold on a false prospectus, and without any genuine factual or economic basis. I understand its emotional appeal, but ultimately that's all it is - a nostalgic appeal to some lost Britain (that probably never actually existed) and a promise of a magic pill solution to complex issues that Brexit will almost certainly fail to solve.

    The UK will not collapse overnight if we leave, but our problems will remain largely the same as before, and probably harder to resolve as our access to our main market comes into doubt. Remember, the UK does more trade with Belgium than we do with India and China combined. If we're intending to develop amazing new trade relationships with the rest of the world, it might have made sense to do that before we left the single market - as it's going to be a lot more difficult once we are outside the EU.

    Purely on a rational basis Brexit is the barmy option. But we seem to be in barmy times right now.

    You say that non of the negative things people moan about can be directly be attributed to the EU.

    Then you go on to claim that the 'facts show quite clearly' that UK's economy has improved since joining.

    I'm interested how on the one hand some things are incidental to EU membership but on the other (conveniently the ones that support your argument) are as a direct result of being part of the EU.

    Where is the direct evidence that EU membership is the key factor in this fantastic economic miracle that you and Cameron seem to think we are living in (strange that Osborne was saying we had to suffer through more austerity at the last election) where some of us haven't had a pay rise for 3 years?

    I can't prove empirically that the EU is responsible for the bad things any more than you can prove it is responsible for the good. Maybe, as you state, the UK economy is on the up. But can you prove to me that is due to the EU? Perhaps it is in spite of it? No one has a clue - which, coincidentally, is a perfect slogan to sum up the entire campaign.

    But if the EU has no tangible, observable effect on people's lives then what's the point of it all? Personally I think it's a bit of waste of money just to have quicker queues at passport control and a bit of regulation to say your boss can't force you to work weekends.
  • CatchingBulletsCatchingBullets facebook.com/catchingbullets
    Posts: 292
    Bloody experts....coming over here... taking our baseless rumours....

    "The increase in net migration was the result of a decrease in emigration, whereas immigration was at a similar level to the previous year."

    "There were 630,000 National Insurance Number (NINo) registrations by EU nationals in YE March 2016, an increase of 1,000 (0%) on the previous year. For non-EU nationals, there were 195,000 NINo registrations in YE March 2016, an increase of 2,000 (1%) on the previous year." - Migration Statistics Quarterly Report: May 2016

    ‪#‎Remain
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Thankfully it will all end tomorrow ! :D
    Either the referendum, or the world as we know it ! :))
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Thankfully it will all end tomorrow ! :D
    Either the referendum, or the world as we know it ! :))

    Well, it's bound to be one or the other or both! :))
This discussion has been closed.