The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • Posts: 342
    =D>
    Hadn't thought of that - oh, the irony
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    It would be funny ( for Scotland) after being told one of the reasons to stay
    As part of the UK was to keep its EU membership.
    ( as much was made that they'd have to reapply to join )
    If Now they were dragged out of the EU because they were part of the very
    same UK. :D

    I think they call that sort of thing "a Catch-22 situation." :D
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I have read that both the UK and the EU will lose massive amounts of money if the UK leaves, but nobody has explained where that money goes. In the end, somebody will have to gain. Could it be the people?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I know, I'm now a definite OUT voter. :) I honestly believe
    it's the best thing we can do. Although given the powers that
    want us to remain, I wonder if "staying" is a foregone conclusion ?
    As it's these powers who have control over counting of the votes !
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I'm voting out. It's high time that the UK stood up for itself again and regained its national and parliamentary sovereignty once more in the van Dicey sense of the word.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    The IN campaign just looks like a bunch of scare tactics:

    "If we leave the EU, zombies will rise from their graves and push pensioners into oncoming traffic."
  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'm not a Brit but I am a European.
    I wish we could all say that... ;-)

    Do you ever refer to yourself as European?

    I do. I work and live in Barcelona, Spain. A region that suffers even more financial hardships than my native country Netherlands. And I tell you, I just don't get my own country anymore. Such negative whiners. I do understand all the problems, but that's because lower income families lock themselves up in their small town, whereas the inevitability of internationalism doesn't seem to be understood by them.

    I call myself a true European. And I'm longing for the day when we have a United States of Europe....and specially a European passport. In this ever globalizing world, small, fearful, closed, xenophobic countries are destined to lose.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I wonder if the UK leaves, who'll be next ? ;)
  • Posts: 11,119
    I wonder if the UK leaves, who'll be next ? ;)

    Sweden perhaps. And as The Netherlands have elections next year, it could very well have an influence on that.

    But to use such a nonchalant smiley for that question....I find a bit misplaced. Because IF the UK leaves the EU, then we could foresee a very fast disintegration of the EU. And with it a faster decrease of welfare and prosperity and a faster rise of ultra-nationalism, with ultra-left wing parties rising to power in Southern Europe and ultra-right wing parties gaining more power in Northern Europe.

    It's a future I am not thrilled about. Ultra-nationalism becomes the 'new now', and other rising powers like Russia and China will then be able to dictate politics in Europe much better.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited June 2016 Posts: 8,400
    I wonder if the UK leaves, who'll be next ? ;)

    Sweden perhaps. And as The Netherlands have elections next year, it could very well have an influence on that.

    But to use such a nonchalant smiley for that question....I find a bit misplaced. Because IF the UK leaves the EU, then we could foresee a very fast disintegration of the EU. And with it a faster decrease of welfare and prosperity and a faster rise of ultra-nationalism, with ultra-left wing parties rising to power in Southern Europe and ultra-right wing parties gaining more power in Northern Europe.

    That actually doesn't sound too bad to me. But then again, I'm a libertarian, so I don't agree with being dictated to by some centralized union. If Europe acts as one, it should be voluntarily, not because we've wrapped ourselves in cling film to the point where we can't move without collective consent.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    I agree with @Gustav_Graves. Ultra-nationalism will not help us to build a better world. To please the short-term egocentric wishes of a few individuals? Sure. But What happens next, when Europe is once again cut up in splinter fractions? To support this is no better than to vote for Trump. Take your proud country, wave your flag in misplaced patriotism, build walls around you, keep those evil foreigners out, live a happy life in the clumsy belief that one country all left to itself actually stands for something any more in these times of economic globalization, and I bet you'll have good night's rest.

    As for your children and grandchildren in a few decades... oh well. Who cares about them, right?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    To be honest, it sounds like ,Cameron's World War 3 prediction.
    For many the EU is a comfort blanket, seems with out it the world
    Will cease as we know it, back to the dark ages. The UK will do just
    Fine =D>
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited June 2016 Posts: 5,185
    I do. I work and live in Barcelona, Spain. A region that suffers even more financial hardships than my native country Netherlands. And I tell you, I just don't get my own country anymore. Such negative whiners. I do understand all the problems, but that's because lower income families lock themselves up in their small town, whereas the inevitability of internationalism doesn't seem to be understood by them.

    I call myself a true European. And I'm longing for the day when we have a United States of Europe....and specially a European passport. In this ever globalizing world, small, fearful, closed, xenophobic countries are destined to lose.

    i agree fully. I was Born in Poland and grew up in Germany. I have traveled almost all european countries by now and i definitly like to refer to myself as European more than German or Polish. And i also think that a European Nation is the only way to move forward instead of fighting about nonsencial stuff.
    I do think the EU is very fragile and not an ideal scenario but i'd rather all european nations come together collectively and try to fix it instead of just threatening to get out like little kids. do we need another world war to make everyone realize why we need at stable EU? some people just don't learn


  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    The UK will be fine without Europe. It has enough cultural ties with the rest of the world and more than enough differentiating attributes to maintain itself and continue to punch well above its weight. Europe will probably bend to it if it leaves and another sort of arrangement will eventually be sorted out for it.

    For other European nations, it won't be so easy though. Each situation must be looked at individually.
  • Posts: 11,119
    I wonder if the UK leaves, who'll be next ? ;)

    Sweden perhaps. And as The Netherlands have elections next year, it could very well have an influence on that.

    But to use such a nonchalant smiley for that question....I find a bit misplaced. Because IF the UK leaves the EU, then we could foresee a very fast disintegration of the EU. And with it a faster decrease of welfare and prosperity and a faster rise of ultra-nationalism, with ultra-left wing parties rising to power in Southern Europe and ultra-right wing parties gaining more power in Northern Europe.

    That actually doesn't sound too bad to me.

    I hear more people saying that these days. You already see what's happening with Turkey. That insane Erdogan manages already to dictate politics across Europe. He's blackmailing Europe with this whole immigrant crisis. It really sickens me. Thing is, he seems to be on the winning side and the EU is accepting their wishes already, albeit in a very grumpy way.

    With Russia it's already getting worse. Many Dutch and Australian victims from flight MH17 are still waiting for apoligies for what happened. The sheer denial of the Kremlin that they had anything to do with this airplane disaster, not even admitting that it was an accident caused by them, still makes my stomach turn.

    Early this year The Netherlands had a referendum about the Ukraine trade agrement between the EU and Ukraine. Too many times the Kremlin Head-of-Press 'warned' the Netherlands that if they vote "YES", it would mean a lack of democracy. THAT'S the kind of dictations that make my stomach turn. At least in the USA they HAVE a democracy and then I can understand that the USA wants to dictate politics in Europe. But from a nation that itself violently opposes democracy and twists and turns the very meaning of the word, makes me angry.

    Perhaps a future where Russia has more influence on Europe oesn't sound too bad to you. But I warn you...once Russia 'friendly' demands that certain LGBT laws and certain laws regarding freedom of press need to be 'changed' in order to get the trade and business ongoing with Russia, I will be protesting violently.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    So far those that want the UK to remain have called us who wish to leave
    "Little Kids" and "Xenophobic" , once again the words of "Fear" ( So much for
    Everyone in the EU loving each other , as has been suggested ) :D
    If you like being ruled by unelected bureaucrats, fine I wish you well.
    Simp!y allow those of us who believe in Democracy to be allowed to Express
    Ourselves in the time honoured manner of voting. ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The EU is an artificial construct. Something made out of necessity. It is not a sustainable entity, as currently designed and maintained. The people have not sold onto what it needs to become to survive in the future. So inevitably some tensions are about to build, if not today, then soon enough, until it is redesigned fundamentally with public buy-in, or dismantled.
  • Posts: 11,119
    So far those that want the UK to remain have called us who wish to leave
    "Little Kids" and "Xenophobic" , once again the words of "Fear" ( So much for
    Everyone in the EU loving each other , as has been suggested ) :D
    If you like being ruled by unelected bureaucrats, fine I wish you well.
    Simp!y allow those of us who believe in Democracy to be allowed to Express
    Ourselves in the time honoured manner of voting. ;)

    But you are talking nonsense. There are European Elections every four years.

    Democracy has become a useless empty shell nowadays among those bitter ultra-right-wings and/or ultra-left-wings.

    May I remind you this?? The UK overwhelmingly voted "YES" back in 1976 to enter the European Union. You know why? Because your own politicians made a mess of the welfare in prosperity in the UK. And as many EU nations were enjoying much better financial situations, you then decided "Oowh, let's join!".

    You should have voted "NO" back then, instead of blaiming the EU for all the mess.

    I prefer to be ruled by EU-bureacrats than Kremlin-bureaucrats. And it sickens me that we actually think this way.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    As the debate has become rather nasty with that last post, I'm no longer going to
    Take part. Once again the EU Zealots have closed another conversation. It seems no
    Dissenting voices will be tolerated in the EU ? :(
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    As the debate has become rather nasty with that last post, I'm no longer going to
    Take part. Once again the EU Zealots have closed another conversation. It seems no
    Dissenting voices will be tolerated in the EU ? :(
    Indeed. It's a pity. I applaud the UK no matter what choice it makes. An entity with a history of independence, strong will and confidence. I'm reminded, like M, of Tennyson right now.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited June 2016 Posts: 5,185
    i would really appreciate if some of you people who want to leave the EU so badly would take the time to educate yourselfes why the EU was created in the first place. but unfortunately you all seem to have set your minds already on "so that germany/our enemies could get richer"

    you could start here:
    http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm
  • Posts: 15,125
    I'm an immigrant in the UK and still undecided. The thing that makes me consider to vote for leaving is actually the immigration debate. I had to go through many loops to be accepted as a permanent resident. I had to show I could be fluent in English, could integrate, etc. Someone from say Italy or France with no functional English does not need to prove this. He just needs to come in. And that is not only unfair. That's having your immigration laws being infeodated by a foreign government. And I think the sovereign should control its own borders.
  • Posts: 11,119
    As the debate has become rather nasty with that last post, I'm no longer going to
    Take part. Once again the EU Zealots have closed another conversation. It seems no
    Dissenting voices will be tolerated in the EU ? :(

    Hard times require hard discussions. Sorry if I sound harsh, but I'm quite tired of the fact that ultra-right wing voices try to pity themselves when I come up with some valid arguments...and then they just walk away.

    If it's the other way around I always STAY in the discussion. @Thunderpussy? I respect your choice off course. But please understand that I am very very worried for your choice. I think I have some right to make you understand what the consequences could be.

    By the way, please do not call me an EU-zealot. I never called you a zealot.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2016 Posts: 15,718
    Stop playing with people's fear. Be it Trump, Le Pen, Francois Hollande, Obama, Erdogan, Cameron, Pro-EU supporters, Anti-EU supporters or whatever, enough with this shit. Is it possible to have a political debate without either side predicting WW3 if the other side wins?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I simply dislike it when it gets rude, with terms like Xenophobic, or educate
    Yourself are being used, I guess being British and not European my standards
    Of politeness is, somewhat different. Instead of Zealot would Fanatic be
    Acceptable ? Still I will away now, don't want to get embroiled in any more
    Nastiness.
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    The EU is an artificial construct. Something made out of necessity. It is not a sustainable entity, as currently designed and maintained. The people have not sold onto what it needs to become to survive in the future. So inevitably some tensions are about to build, if not today, then soon enough, until it is redesigned fundamentally with public buy-in, or dismantled.

    I agree with you that the EU lacks democratic core values. Right now Brussels and Strassbourg are not made out of politicians who are willing to discuss and debate with the ordinary person. That's the fundamental flaw right now of the EU. The people don't feel heard. It's a far-away entity that doesn't create any emotion. Guys like Jean-Claude Juncker need to stop warning so much, and instead listen more to all the worries. That's the one thing I firmly agree with.

    But....people make it sound like the EU is the 'real dictatorship' here in Europe. And I do find such remarks pityful and out of context. Ever since the EU was founded we could still have our own democratic referendum. It's one of the reasons that Denmark, an EU-member, doesn't have the Euro right now. Or what about the actual 4-year-term EU elections? Those are also moments when we could have empowered ourselves.

    But we didn't. We start blaiming others, the EU maninly, when we live in times of financial hardships. But the real fact is.....we could have initiated more referendums back in the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's when the EU was still on the rise. But we didn't we stayed silent. We indulged ourselves in the prosperity of the 1990's. But back then we should have taken a closer look at the EU. We didn't.


    I respect everyone's choice. But I can firmly disagree with it. And in such cases, don't walk away. At least @BondJames keeps discussing with me. I may firmly disagree with him, but he makes me also realize that I am wrong sometimes. Right now we NEED to discuss firmly about the issues...and not walk away like a poor cat bitten by an insect.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    edited June 2016 Posts: 13,384
    Yet more personal insults :( is this the standard of your debating. So very sad.
    When you can't win the argument, attack the person making it.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The narrative has been twisted so that everything is upside down. Some people lap it up, of course. Probably most.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @Gustav_Graves, if what you say is true, then the UK leaving shouldn't be a big deal. They will just renegotiate a better deal than they had before. At the end of the day, this should not be a gun to one's head type discussion. It should be about shared interests. Those interests have to be articulated clearly. If they can't be, or if the people don't believe it, then the system needs to be reformed. I believe it's as simple as that.

    A lot of credibility was lost due to the Greek debacle, and now the migrant issue. The lawmakers look like a bunch of uncaring dictatorial imbeciles, and that's not instilling confidence.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Yet more personal insults :( is this the standard of your debating. So very sad.
    When you can't win the argument, attack the person making it.

    I won't win the argument. Never. But I have every right to be at least firm with my opinion. I never called you a zealot. And I never said directly to you that you are a xenophobe. But I have every right to say that the situation in Europe has become more xenophobic. I mean, how would you describe this?

    Right-wing people attacking asylum seekers:


    Muslim immigrants attacking UK people:


    Now, both sides are causing this madness. And I agree it has to stop. But this is indeed an example of xenophobia. And if you don't think it is, then please explain me what xenophobia is.
This discussion has been closed.