The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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Comments

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I think the point was the US was a colony, but chose to move on and exercise its rights. That's the point. Colony no more.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Several EU countries had to have two votes before, finally getting the right
    result for their EU masters ;)
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited June 2016 Posts: 4,585
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think the point was the US was a colony, but chose to move on and exercise its rights. That's the point. Colony no more.

    But the British empire had a "belief," too...one that was Conservative in focus at that time. And the Colonists were actually following a "liberal" ideology, in terms of Rights. From that standpoint, human rights (as usual) was the winner.

    Yesterday's vote isn't about Rights and Independence in the same vein. It is anti-establishment, yes. But that term "anti-establishment" and the concepts of "Us vs Them" have now been bastardized.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    TripAces wrote: »

    You guys just screwed yourselves six ways to Sunday. It would be hilarious if not so tragic.

    You guys are just about to vote Trump in. It would be tragic if not so hilarious.

    When you've all stopped shooting each other feel free to chip in with how wrong the direction we are taking is.
    TripAces wrote: »
    Belief is a problem when facts prove those beliefs wrong. I have friends who "believe" homosexuality is a sin and choice and reject any science that suggests it is biological. (Just another example.) Our Cons here flat out reject climate science...mostly because it clashes with a "belief" that God created a world that man can't destroy.

    You're clearly confusing one Con with another.

    Ours are all born to rule Eton types who are mostly interested in how much money they can make for themselves.

    Yours are totally mental.

    Belief in God? Do me a favour. Even Corbyn is not so out of his tree to think this drivel is relevant in 2016.

    It's difficult to make any comparison with US politics and European politics, given that about the only thing Europe does unilaterally agree on is the separation of church and state and that it shouldn't be everyone's most fundamental right to be able to buy a gun in the local supermarket, but in America these are the two things that it is mandatory you stand for if you want a shot at getting the top job.
  • Posts: 342
    Seems to me we were in a lose-lose situation. Screwed if we go, screwed if we stay.

    One depressing scenario is for Scotland to leave the UK, Labour core voters stay at home, England and Wales get a Tory government with huge majority, whose paymasters, the City, take their revenge by further austerity cuts, reductions in working regulations, reduce the limits on immigration from the developing world further reducing wages, the banks get another bail out/subsidies (as already implied by Carney) and the country continues its descent of living standards. Lower overall immigration reduces demand for rental properties, reducing rents combined with increased taxation lead to sell off of BuyTo Lets depressing house prices. Higher interest rates to prop up the pound lead to mortgage defaults and repossessions. Private pensions are found to be worthless after the City boys have creamed off their fees and the rest taken by the asset strippers (BHS anyone). Increased power of Parliament hands increased power to the lobbyists and Rupert Murdoch. New Tory PM signs TTIP.

  • Posts: 11,425
    I hope the UK (or possibly a rump England and Wales) can make a success of a leaving the EU.

    The UK's underlying structural challenges are going to come to the fore now. We have one of the least productive economies in the developed world, low levels of investment, a weak manufacturing sector, and a deteriorating balance of payments (and that was before we left the EU).

    A weaker pound theoretically helps exporters, but because we import way more than we export, on balance we're going to be worse off.

    And one of our most successful industries - finance - is almost certainly going to take a significant hit from leaving the EU.

    These are massive underlying problems.

    Just hope Boris is up to it.

    My big concern is that the UK economy is going to start on a downward trajectory into a recession quite rapidly, making a bad fiscal position worse. Regardless of his any intentions Boris is likely to have to make even more cuts to public expenditure, reinforcing a cycle of economic decline.

    I hope not, but this is the most likely scenario right now.
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think the point was the US was a colony, but chose to move on and exercise its rights. That's the point. Colony no more.

    You forget one important thing though. It took them like two centuries before the words 'American Dream' were uttered; two words that highlighted the prosperity, welfare and security it enjoyed until the late 1990's. The USA had to struggle years, decades, centuries to actually 'get' a United States of Europe. The United Kingdom however has become a dangerously Divided Kingdom.

    This is how I see it. Brexit may not have dire short-term consequences. But I do believe the older generation of today has severely blakende the long-term future of youth in our Western society. I am 34 years of age now. But I sincerely believe that in 2036 we will long for everything that 2016 had on offer.

    Brexit has fuelled a more rapid long-term downfall of western society on the whole and with it all its prosperity and welfare. I do not expect that the populists of now will cure the future of 2036. On the contrary. Europe is rapidly becoming a powerless museum for Asian and American tourists. Existential and complex problems like the immigration crisis, ISIS-terrorism and the more dictatorial muscle-expansion of China and Russia won't be counteract or solved anymore by a strong united Europe. On the contrary.

    Doom and gloom from my mouth? Fuck it. This article basically sums up my long-term worries:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/after-brexit-europe-faces-an-existential-crisis/
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited June 2016 Posts: 4,585
    TripAces wrote: »

    You guys just screwed yourselves six ways to Sunday. It would be hilarious if not so tragic.

    You guys are just about to vote Trump in. It would be tragic if not so hilarious.

    When you've all stopped shooting each other feel free to chip in with how wrong the direction we are taking is.
    TripAces wrote: »
    Belief is a problem when facts prove those beliefs wrong. I have friends who "believe" homosexuality is a sin and choice and reject any science that suggests it is biological. (Just another example.) Our Cons here flat out reject climate science...mostly because it clashes with a "belief" that God created a world that man can't destroy.

    You're clearly confusing one Con with another.

    Ours are all born to rule Eton types who are mostly interested in how much money they can make for themselves.

    Yours are totally mental.


    Belief in God? Do me a favour. Even Corbyn is not so out of his tree to think this drivel is relevant in 2016.

    It's difficult to make any comparison with US politics and European politics, given that about the only thing Europe does unilaterally agree on is the separation of church and state and that it shouldn't be everyone's most fundamental right to be able to buy a gun in the local supermarket, but in America these are the two things that it is mandatory you stand for if you want a shot at getting the top job.

    And you're not seeing that they are connected. It's all fear-based.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Only just noticed George Osborne has been very, very quiet. :D
    must be hoping we all forget his evolvement, in the threats
  • Posts: 11,425
    Only just noticed George Osborne has been very, very quiet. :D
    must be hoping we all forget his evolvement, in the threats

    I suspect he is thoroughly gutted about the outcome and right now focused on how to prevent the UK economy going into a tailspin.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Just popping in to say congrats to the UK. Well done! Now reform, become agile and show them doomsday sayers what a country can do without bureaucratic incompetence hanging over it's head....
  • Posts: 11,119
    ► 28th of June 1914
    ► 29th of October 1929
    ► 31st of July 1932
    ► 11th of September 2001
    ► 07th of September 2008

    And now we can add another historical moment to the above dates:
    ► 24th of June 2016

    Like many people have said already, the current older generation (45+), who were already part of the spoiled babyboom generation, has basically destroyed the long-term future of today's youth.

    And this article more or less highlights the worries we all should have now:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/after-brexit-europe-faces-an-existential-crisis/
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    :)) sorry Gustav but, the sun will still rise tomorrow. It's not
    The End of Days.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    You are not out yet. It will take a long time.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    True, we have to sort out the cd collection, who owns what. ;)
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I'm not a political expert, but comparing the likes of 9/11 and the rise of the Nazi Party to this Brexit ordeal seems a bit extreme.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    Only just noticed George Osborne has been very, very quiet. :D
    must be hoping we all forget his evolvement, in the threats

    I suspect he is thoroughly gutted about the outcome and right now focused on how to prevent the UK economy going into a tailspin.

    :))

    Yeah mate. I'm sure that's precisely what he's doing. His first thought will definitely be for the good of the country. Not making sure all his investments are nice and secure in Cayman Island accounts and thinking how he can save his career.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I'm not a political expert, but comparing the likes of 9/11 and the rise of the Nazi Party to this Brexit ordeal seems a bit extreme.

    It's premature, but Gustav's concerns are justified.

    It's only with hindsight that you can identify the cause/origins of catastrophic global events.

    Let's hope this isn't part of the trigger to some long-term global unravelling of economic and political stability, but no one should underestimate the potential ripple effects.

    Narrow nationalism is on the rise, and there is little from history to suggest that this has a happy outcome.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I'm not a political expert, but comparing the likes of 9/11 and the rise of the Nazi Party to this Brexit ordeal seems a bit extreme.

    I haven't even mentioned the Nazi Party @Creasy47. I was merely thinking about The Weimar Republic. Dates are not just dates. They refer to much more than the narrow-minded ideas of Nazi-fear.

    Again, I think it's perfect comparison material from a historical perspective. The fact that we keep pushing these historical events away from our memories is a perfect example of denying at least parts of those historical moments that are happening again, albeit in a different, slower way.

    And actually, it angers me that people in here are constantly slamming down these historic moments as if I am only using them to teach fear and division. I am not like that at all! And luckily I'm not alone in this:

    Bruzz.be:
    http://www.bruzz.be/nl/actua/van-reybrouck-over-brexit-we-delven-ons-eigen-graf

    Huffington Post:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charles-kolb/brexit-and-stefan-zweig_b_10527308.html

    Examiner:
    http://www.examiner.com/article/brexit-victory-shows-that-history-is-cycling-backward

    New York Times:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/31/opinion/is-this-the-wests-weimar-moment.html?_r=0

    Weekly Standard:
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/britain-exits-democracy-lives-and-everything-has-changed/article/2003017

    National Post:
    http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/george-f-will-republican-donors-can-save-their-party-by-not-giving-money-to-donald-trump
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    To compare world wars and 9/11 to the Brexit is, sorry Gustav, just plain stupid and even totally tactless.

    The Brexit was decided in a democratic vote. Deal with it!!

    History will show that this day was the first day of a better European Union, or the beginning of its end. Both are preferable to the EU we now have, that's for sure.

    Leave the countries that are not in the EU alone. It has worked perfectly up to now, why shouldn't it in the future. The British will one day look upon David Cameron as the guy who "accidentally" was responsible for the best thing happening to British in a good hundred years I say. I'm sure there will be David Cameron statues all over England in 50 years :))
  • Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I'm not a political expert, but comparing the likes of 9/11 and the rise of the Nazi Party to this Brexit ordeal seems a bit extreme.

    It's premature, but Gustav's concerns are justified.

    It's only with hindsight that you can identify the cause/origins of catastrophic global events.

    Let's hope this isn't part of the trigger to some long-term global unravelling of economic and political stability, but no one should underestimate the potential ripple effects.

    Narrow nationalism is on the rise, and there is little from history to suggest that this has a happy outcome.

    Thank you so much @Getafix.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    Well said @Gustav_Graves.

    History shows that when the UK withdraws from the continent and turns in on itself, bad things happen in Europe.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Let's revisit this so called 'catastrophe' in a year. I hope everyone will be back at the table.

    Bottom line, the UK will have to prove now that it has what it takes. That it can do something with this history making moment. This requires strong, dynamic leadership and a sense of purpose. Dig deep, release the entrepreneurial instincts, business acumen, hard work, individuality & fearlessness that is a part of the psyche, and prove the naysayers wrong.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2016 Posts: 15,718
    We all know if the 'In' had won, the pro-EU side would have celebrated a 'formidable example of democracy'. But, as they lost, the 'In' side is all about narrow-mindedness and fear mongering. And explain to me how these so called experts and journalists who never saw the 2008 financial crisis coming, can somehow claim as 100% fact that the UK's economy will collapse.

    Again, I am not taking sides, I am just against fear mongering from any political party.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well said @Gustav_Graves.

    History shows that when the UK withdraws from the continent and turns in on itself, bad things happen in Europe.

    Thanks. I am.....I am really really worried. Really feeling depressed about what has happened today. Perhaps in part that's because I have been proactive in supporting a pro-European political party (D66 Netherlands).

    It also frightens me that people keep using the democracy-argument, when it has been proven so many times that in societies were the middle class is close to being destroyed, democracy brings about the darkest forces of mankind. The 31st of July 1932 has proven that no? It was also a 'happy cheerful ode to democracy' or 'democracy finally brings us salvation!'.

    People really need to read Plato's 'The Republic' more. In that book Socrates says the following: "Tyranny arises from no other regime than democracy". Farfetched? At first sight maybe, but be a good boy @BondJasonBond006 and try to read it entirely.

    Moreover, it's calling the kettle black if one says that I use fear, whereas pro-Brexit-voters are the perfect example of rationalists and pragmatists. It scares me.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The City of London will thrive as always.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Gerard wrote: »

    I don't want to be Captain Pedantic, but isn't 'no comment' a comment itself?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Gerard wrote: »

    I don't want to be Captain Pedantic, but isn't 'no comment' a comment itself?

    It sure is. "No comment" looks like this:
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Let's revisit this so called 'catastrophe' in a year. I hope everyone will be back at the table.

    Bottom line, the UK will have to prove now that it has what it takes. That it can do something with this history making moment. This requires strong, dynamic leadership and a sense of purpose. Dig deep, release the entrepreneurial instincts, business acumen, hard work, individuality & fearlessness that is a part of the psyche, and prove the naysayers wrong.

    The challenges we face as a country actually remain very similar to those that existed yesterday. Our underlying problems are not solved by leaving the EU. It's just that now our attentions are divided and our efforts to build a strong and dynamic economy are massively complicated by the need for lengthy divorce proceedings.

    Imagine starting a new job on the same day you begin divorce proceedings...

    Business investment in the UK was already very weak, so how is leaving the EU actually going to help improve that situation? Is the UK now more or less attractive as place to invest than 24hrs ago?
This discussion has been closed.