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The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    It happened. We have to move on. No point wanking on about the negatives. Shit happens and as Brits we're usually pretty good at sorting our own shit out.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Moreover, it's calling the kettle black if one says that I use fear, whereas pro-Brexit-voters are the perfect example of rationalists and pragmatists. It scares me.

    Anyone who uses fear is disqualified from the debate, so both the most vocal Pro-EU and Pro-Brexit are disqualified from making anymore comments. How can you not see the amount of fear mongering nonsense heard from the Pro-EU side is incredible.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Let's revisit this so called 'catastrophe' in a year. I hope everyone will be back at the table.

    Bottom line, the UK will have to prove now that it has what it takes. That it can do something with this history making moment. This requires strong, dynamic leadership and a sense of purpose. Dig deep, release the entrepreneurial instincts, business acumen, hard work, individuality & fearlessness that is a part of the psyche, and prove the naysayers wrong.

    The challenges we face as a country actually remain very similar to those that existed yesterday. Our underlying problems are not solved by leaving the EU. It's just that now our attentions are divided and our efforts to build a strong and dynamic economy are massively complicated by the need for lengthy divorce proceedings.

    Imagine starting a new job on the same day you begin divorce proceedings...

    Business investment in the UK was already very weak, so how is leaving the EU actually going to help improve that situation? Is the UK now more or less attractive as place to invest than 24hrs ago?

    A divorce is sometimes needed, yes it's painful as it happens but afterward both parties may be much more happier than in an unhappy marriage!!
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    I think Gustav's point is that the historical implications could be massive. And by their nature these events often take years to play out. If this is the beginning of the unravelling of the EU that's really not likely to be a good thing for Europe, of world economic and political stability.

    Let's hope that doesn't happen, but lots of people are worried right now about what the impact could be well beyond the UK's borders.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Moreover, it's calling the kettle black if one says that I use fear, whereas pro-Brexit-voters are the perfect example of rationalists and pragmatists. It scares me.

    Anyone who uses fear is disqualified from the debate, so both the most vocal Pro-EU and Pro-Brexit are disqualified from making anymore comments. How can you not see the amount of fear mongering nonsense heard from the Pro-EU side is incredible.

    And again, context is gone. Gone, gone, gone.
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think Gustav's point is that the historical implications could be massive. And by their nature these events often take years to play out. If this is the beginning of the unravelling of the EU that's really not likely to be a good thing for Europe, of world economic and political stability.

    Let's hope that doesn't happen, but lots of people are worried right now about what the impact could be well beyond the UK's borders.

    Thanks a lot. Are there actually more people in here than you and me who dare to take into account the long-term implications of June 24th 2016?
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    “Things fall apart; the center cannot hold; anarchy is loosed upon the world... “ - William Butler Yeats, The Second Coming (1919)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2016 Posts: 9,117
    @Gustav is, I think, symptomatic of a large amount of Remainers I've heard speaking today in that they think its all our fault for just not getting it.

    If we just stopped moaning and meekly went along with all the politicians and the EU everything would be just fine. The temerity of you people to think for yourselves.

    The notion of equating today to 9/11 is risible, but not surprising, from Remainers who still haven't realised that painting all Leavers as monsters who are itching to start implementing concentration camps and a final solution for all foreigners is one of the main reasons they lost.

    And people accuse Farage of propogating the politics of fear?

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I hear you @Getafix. It won't be easy, and the next six months are going to be confusing and stressful.

    I firmly believe that when it's all said and done, given where the growth is coming from, the UK is going to prosper. As I said earlier on this thread, it will be up to the UK to define its place in the world and determine how and where it wants to play. It will have to draw on the remnants of the Empire, the language and cultural advantages it has, and be open to new investment and arrangements.

    A new, fresh perspective is required, with an open mindset by politicians and business people, as well as the public. A need to be nimble and fleet footed. To see the trends ahead of others and move fast to capture the opportunities.

    It won't be easy, but I'm confident that success will eventually be the result, while the EU continues to fumble.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2016 Posts: 15,718
    It could be true, time will tell. But what I'm saying is all Pro-EU politicians across europe barely made any positive arguments on Staying, and only focused on negative arguments on why Brexit is bad. Maybe if the debate had been more civilized and cool-headed, and the 'In' side had not been fear mongering so much, the result would have been different. The result of the vote is largely attributed on the general population tired of the rubbish coming out of the mouth of One-Way thinking politicians and media.

    Enough with the fear mongering. From any side. If you continue, don't be surprised if Le Pen
    is elected and France leave the EU too. Because all populations are tired of this.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Well if the EU had have given Cameron just a few consessions, which he cold
    have sold to the people, we wouldn't be in this position. ;)
  • RC7RC7
    edited June 2016 Posts: 10,512
    It's all well and good posturing post result. It's done. Finished. If Remain hadn't been so patronising, aloof, derogatory and ignorant it would never happened. This is the point here. You can draw comparisons until the cows come home, but the simple fact is those most disenfranchised, those with nothing to lose, have had their say. We now need to consider how we move forward, not perpetuate the end of the world, 'Hitler's return' rhetoric that serves no purpose whatsoever.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    It could be true, time will tell. But what I'm saying is all Pro-EU politicians across europe barely made any positive arguments on Staying, and only focused on negative arguments on why Brexit is bad. Maybe if the debate had been more civilized and cool-headed, and the 'In' side had not been fear mongering so much, the result would have been different. The result of the vote is largely attributed on the general population tired of the rubbish coming out of the mouth of One-Way thinking politicians and media.

    Enough with the fear mongering. From any side. If you continue, don't be surprised if Le Pen
    is elected and France leave the EU too. Because all populations are tired of this.
    RC7 wrote: »
    It's all well and good posturing post result. It's done. Finished. If Remain hadn't been so patronising, aloof, derogatory and ignorant it would never happened. This is the point here. You can draw comparisons until the cows come home, but the simple fact is those most disenfranchised, those with nothing to lose, have had their say. We now need to consider how we move forward, not perpetuate the end of the world, 'Hitler's return' rhetoric that serves no purpose whatsoever.

    I actually agree with you both. Remain's biggest failure was not making the positive case for staying in.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    @Gustav is, I think, symptomatic of a large amount of Remainers I've heard speaking today in that they think its all our fault for just not getting it.

    If we just stopped moaning and meekly went along with all the politicians and the EU everything would be just fine. The temerity of you people to think for yourselves.

    The notion of equating today to 9/11 is risible, but not surprising, from Remainers who still haven't realised that painting all Leavers as monsters who are itching to start implementing concentration camps and a final solution for all foreigners is the reason they lost.

    And people accuse Farage of proliferating the politics of fear?

    *sigh* You again haven't read one of my previous posts. It really makes me sad :-S
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    I have to agree with that. I am also angry how European politicians behave these days. Men like Juncker, Schultz and Tusk need to talk with all the citizens of the EU. The worried citizens. Because our middle class is being destroyed in a fast rate. A middle class destruction, that reminds me of the 1920's and 1930's.

    So indeed, European politicians forcefully need to say: "Dear people, we are sorry that we didn't listen to you!" It needs to be the driving force of upcoming summits about the future of the EU.

    But, regardless of the current 'hate' aimed at the EU, a 'Remain' vote would have been the best of two bad voting options. The 24th of June 2016 is as historic as the 28th of June 1914. And like in 1914, it's a negative outcome as well. 'Brexit' will only facilitate a faster destruction of the middle class and will only enhance current far-right-wing and far-left-wing populist resentment in the Western World. Not to mention the influence this will have on the upcoming US elections.

    Am I painting Brexit-voters as monsters? No! No! No! NOOO!!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Thr UK is not some south American war torn dictatorship, it's one
    of the oldest democracies in the world. Both it anfd the world will
    survive. ;)
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    I hear you @Getafix. It won't be easy, and the next six months are going to be confusing and stressful.

    I firmly believe that when it's all said and done, given where the growth is coming from, the UK is going to prosper. As I said earlier on this thread, it will be up to the UK to define its place in the world and determine how and where it wants to play. It will have to draw on the remnants of the Empire, the language and cultural advantages it has, and be open to new investment and arrangements.

    A new, fresh perspective is required, with an open mindset by politicians and business people, as well as the public. A need to be nimble and fleet footed. To see the trends ahead of others and move fast to capture the opportunities.

    It won't be easy, but I'm confident that success will eventually be the result, while the EU continues to fumble.

    You know @BondJames? There are times I hugely disagree with you. Many times. It sometimes even angers me.

    But one thing sets you apart from some people in here. You are always nuanced in your comments. You always stay calm. And no matter how intense the debates get, I think it's for the better in learning and understanding each other.

    The adage "Let's agree to disagree" commands respect. And at a time like today that espect for each other's visions is something I miss in today's fiery debates.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    One other question I have.

    What about the future of The United Kingdom? I mean, Scotland and Northern-Ireland are not exactly happy. I am at times quite gutted about how certain Brits paint off these countries as 'poor man's England's'
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    Thr UK is not some south American war torn dictatorship, it's one
    of the oldest democracies in the world. Both it anfd the world will
    survive. ;)

    Nothing lasts forever. The UK is three hundred years old - not exactly an eternity. It seems highly likely now that at the very least Scotland may leave. That raises questions about the UK's place on the UN security council - with potentially further implications for decreasing influence in the world.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited June 2016 Posts: 18,281
    I'm from Northern Ireland and very happy with the LEAVE vote so please don't tar us all with the same brush of bitter Remainers.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Thank you @Gustav_Graves. I try not to let you anger me. A pointless emotion in my view.

    Regarding the EU. This is a wake up call. They now have to work on reforming it and becoming more answerable to the people. The less we see and hear of the Junckers, Tusks and Schulzs of the world, the better. They are already running their mouths today from what I have read, and this is unfortunate. They are better placed behind the scenes, as they are the ones who will blow this going forward. Merkel/Hollande/Renzi will have to save it.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    Thank you @Gustav_Graves. I try not to let you anger me. A pointless emotion in my view.

    Regarding the EU. This is a wake up call. They now have to work on reforming it and becoming more answerable to the people. The less we see and hear of the Junckers, Tusks and Schulzs of the world, the better. They are already running their mouths today from what I have read, and this is unfortunate. They are better placed behind the scenes, as they are the ones who will blow this going forward. Merkel/Hollande/Renzi will have to save it.

    Precisely. Juncker is just another Sepp Blatter, but with considerably more influence.
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited June 2016 Posts: 11,425
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Let's revisit this so called 'catastrophe' in a year. I hope everyone will be back at the table.

    Bottom line, the UK will have to prove now that it has what it takes. That it can do something with this history making moment. This requires strong, dynamic leadership and a sense of purpose. Dig deep, release the entrepreneurial instincts, business acumen, hard work, individuality & fearlessness that is a part of the psyche, and prove the naysayers wrong.

    The challenges we face as a country actually remain very similar to those that existed yesterday. Our underlying problems are not solved by leaving the EU. It's just that now our attentions are divided and our efforts to build a strong and dynamic economy are massively complicated by the need for lengthy divorce proceedings.

    Imagine starting a new job on the same day you begin divorce proceedings...

    Business investment in the UK was already very weak, so how is leaving the EU actually going to help improve that situation? Is the UK now more or less attractive as place to invest than 24hrs ago?

    A divorce is sometimes needed, yes it's painful as it happens but afterward both parties may be much more happier than in an unhappy marriage!!

    Yes but in the meantime the family and work suffer... and long term damage to the kids can be catastrophic.

    But then the Baby Boomer generation never seemed that bothered about the consequences of their actions...
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    Posts: 389
    This atmosphere of doom is so outlandish & typical of a generation that has bought into the politics of fear.

    There's an old saying coined from the American Marines that I believe sums up the English mentality (You'll notice I say English).

    "Improvise, adapt, overcome!"
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    @bondjames from what these jokers (Juncler, Tusk, Schulz) have been saying today, and considering they were against the Brexit from the start and they were shocked with the result this morning, they don't seem to learn a thing. Their non-stop negative rubbish which played a big part in this vote, is about to do the same thing in other Euroopean countries. According to today's polls, France is in majority against a Frexit. But if they keep running their mouths like this, the French (and other countries) will tip in the other direction. I don't think they understand a lot of people are tired of these politicans' non stop rubbish, and a sizeable portion of voters are voting against these guys because of non stop negative comments.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I told the Brits to vote leave, and they did. It s as simple as that.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Let's revisit this so called 'catastrophe' in a year. I hope everyone will be back at the table.

    Bottom line, the UK will have to prove now that it has what it takes. That it can do something with this history making moment. This requires strong, dynamic leadership and a sense of purpose. Dig deep, release the entrepreneurial instincts, business acumen, hard work, individuality & fearlessness that is a part of the psyche, and prove the naysayers wrong.

    The challenges we face as a country actually remain very similar to those that existed yesterday. Our underlying problems are not solved by leaving the EU. It's just that now our attentions are divided and our efforts to build a strong and dynamic economy are massively complicated by the need for lengthy divorce proceedings.

    Imagine starting a new job on the same day you begin divorce proceedings...

    Business investment in the UK was already very weak, so how is leaving the EU actually going to help improve that situation? Is the UK now more or less attractive as place to invest than 24hrs ago?

    A divorce is sometimes needed, yes it's painful as it happens but afterward both parties may be much more happier than in an unhappy marriage!!

    Yes but in the meantime the family and work suffer... and long term damage to the kids can be catastrophic.

    But then the Baby Boomer generation never seemed that bothered about the consequences of their actions...

    After reading this........I am truly appreciating my own parents now. God, they have sacrificed themselves to let me and my brother finance our studies.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I agree @DaltonCraig007. These three musketeers are their own worst enemies
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Let's revisit this so called 'catastrophe' in a year. I hope everyone will be back at the table.

    Bottom line, the UK will have to prove now that it has what it takes. That it can do something with this history making moment. This requires strong, dynamic leadership and a sense of purpose. Dig deep, release the entrepreneurial instincts, business acumen, hard work, individuality & fearlessness that is a part of the psyche, and prove the naysayers wrong.

    The challenges we face as a country actually remain very similar to those that existed yesterday. Our underlying problems are not solved by leaving the EU. It's just that now our attentions are divided and our efforts to build a strong and dynamic economy are massively complicated by the need for lengthy divorce proceedings.

    Imagine starting a new job on the same day you begin divorce proceedings...

    Business investment in the UK was already very weak, so how is leaving the EU actually going to help improve that situation? Is the UK now more or less attractive as place to invest than 24hrs ago?

    A divorce is sometimes needed, yes it's painful as it happens but afterward both parties may be much more happier than in an unhappy marriage!!

    Yes but in the meantime the family and work suffer... and long term damage to the kids can be catastrophic.

    But then the Baby Boomer generation never seemed that bothered about the consequences of their actions...

    After reading this........I am truly appreciating my own parents now. God, they have sacrificed themselves to let me and my brother finance our studies.

    So did mine and my wife's. Again, a sweeping generalisation I would say.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I just wish the people who don't like the outcome of this vote would respect that it was a democratic vote.
    Deal with it, accept it and stop moaning around. Help to make England a strong independent country that can have good relationships with the EU. Other countries in Europe can too.

    It's not Doomsday. It's a new start and opportunity.

    The downright negativity on the side of those who voted for Remain is troubling. And it shows how people cannot accept a vote if it is not after their own taste.
    That is the real danger, and not one country leaving the EU.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Let's revisit this so called 'catastrophe' in a year. I hope everyone will be back at the table.

    Bottom line, the UK will have to prove now that it has what it takes. That it can do something with this history making moment. This requires strong, dynamic leadership and a sense of purpose. Dig deep, release the entrepreneurial instincts, business acumen, hard work, individuality & fearlessness that is a part of the psyche, and prove the naysayers wrong.

    The challenges we face as a country actually remain very similar to those that existed yesterday. Our underlying problems are not solved by leaving the EU. It's just that now our attentions are divided and our efforts to build a strong and dynamic economy are massively complicated by the need for lengthy divorce proceedings.

    Imagine starting a new job on the same day you begin divorce proceedings...

    Business investment in the UK was already very weak, so how is leaving the EU actually going to help improve that situation? Is the UK now more or less attractive as place to invest than 24hrs ago?

    A divorce is sometimes needed, yes it's painful as it happens but afterward both parties may be much more happier than in an unhappy marriage!!

    Yes but in the meantime the family and work suffer... and long term damage to the kids can be catastrophic.

    But then the Baby Boomer generation never seemed that bothered about the consequences of their actions...

    After reading this........I am truly appreciating my own parents now. God, they have sacrificed themselves to let me and my brother finance our studies.

    It's ironic that the older generation who have voted us out of the EU in the UK are the generation who've amassed huge wealth in property and generally speaking done so well during 40 years of EU membership. Meanwhile, the younger generation, who voted to stay in, are the ones struggling to pay for housing and obviously most worried about what the future holds. The voting patterns are so weird. And the implications for Britain's young people are arguably not that great. Hopefully things will work out okay.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    RC7 wrote: »
    It happened. We have to move on. No point wanking on about the negatives. Shit happens and as Brits we're usually pretty good at sorting our own shit out.

    Absobloodyexactly.

    This was an interesting diversion for the rest days but let's not lose too much sleep over it.

    The proper serious business in Europe resumes tomorrow at 14.00 with Switz v Pol.
This discussion has been closed.