The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Gustav_Graves, if what you say is true, then the UK leaving shouldn't be a big deal. They will just renegotiate a better deal than they had before. At the end of the day, this should not be a gun to one's head type discussion. It should be about shared interests. Those interests have to be articulated clearly. If they can't be, or if the people don't believe it, then the system needs to be reformed. I believe it's as simple as that.

    A lot of credibility was lost due to the Greek debacle, and now the migrant issue. The lawmakers look like a bunch of uncaring dictatorial imbeciles, and that's not instilling confidence.

    The EU on their behalf is quite sick and tired about 'renegotiations'. A deal was already renegotiated heavily. And that's actually what this referendum is about. Voting "YES" or "NO" with regard to staying in the EU and all its renegotiated terms (executed last year by Cameron).

    Brussels has already said that it isn't in the modd to start negotiations on trade agreements with the EU once the UK leaves the EU. They are not willing at all to turn the UK into a 2nd Norway. Because Norway always stood firm, they always said "NO" to the EU. European politicians might feel angry and disrespected by the UK. So don't expect any trade agreement negotiations anytime soon.

    The UK has to survive on its own altogether, without Norway-esque trade agreements.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Gustav_Graves, if what you say is true, then the UK leaving shouldn't be a big deal. They will just renegotiate a better deal than they had before. At the end of the day, this should not be a gun to one's head type discussion. It should be about shared interests. Those interests have to be articulated clearly. If they can't be, or if the people don't believe it, then the system needs to be reformed. I believe it's as simple as that.

    A lot of credibility was lost due to the Greek debacle, and now the migrant issue. The lawmakers look like a bunch of uncaring dictatorial imbeciles, and that's not instilling confidence.

    The EU on their behalf is quite sick and tired about 'renegotiations'. A deal was already renegotiated heavily. And that's actually what this referendum is about. Voting "YES" or "NO" with regard to staying in the EU and all its renegotiated terms (executed last year by Cameron).

    Brussels has already said that it isn't in the modd to start negotiations on trade agreements with the EU once the UK leaves the EU. They are not willing at all to turn the UK into a 2nd Norway. Because Norway always stood firm, they always said "NO" to the EU. European politicians might feel angry and disrespected by the UK. So don't expect any trade agreement negotiations anytime soon.

    The UK has to survive on its own altogether, without Norway-esque trade agreements.
    I'm aware of Cameron's deal. This is exactly why the UK hopefully will leave. Cameron's deal appears not to so clearly reflect the people's wishes.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    " In this ever globalizing world, small, fearful, closed, xenophobic countries are destined to lose"
    That's Britain, as we're having a vote, no one else is ? I agree you didn't say it directly, after all
    All the best insults are "Implied"

    Only clearing up a point you raised, as like a kid I'm running away (:|
    Not getting involved in this argument again.
    I feel as welcome as a fart in a space suit .
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Gustav_Graves, if what you say is true, then the UK leaving shouldn't be a big deal. They will just renegotiate a better deal than they had before. At the end of the day, this should not be a gun to one's head type discussion. It should be about shared interests. Those interests have to be articulated clearly. If they can't be, or if the people don't believe it, then the system needs to be reformed. I believe it's as simple as that.

    A lot of credibility was lost due to the Greek debacle, and now the migrant issue. The lawmakers look like a bunch of uncaring dictatorial imbeciles, and that's not instilling confidence.

    The EU on their behalf is quite sick and tired about 'renegotiations'. A deal was already renegotiated heavily. And that's actually what this referendum is about. Voting "YES" or "NO" with regard to staying in the EU and all its renegotiated terms (executed last year by Cameron).

    Brussels has already said that it isn't in the modd to start negotiations on trade agreements with the EU once the UK leaves the EU. They are not willing at all to turn the UK into a 2nd Norway. Because Norway always stood firm, they always said "NO" to the EU. European politicians might feel angry and disrespected by the UK. So don't expect any trade agreement negotiations anytime soon.

    The UK has to survive on its own altogether, without Norway-esque trade agreements.
    I'm aware of Cameron's deal. This is exactly why the UK hopefully will leave. Cameron's deal appears not to so clearly reflect the people's wishes.

    Every deal, how well negotiated, would have been marked as 'insufficient'. Even if that deal would include an unofficial leave. Deals are about compromising. Always and foremost. And that is a fact that a lot of people can't swallow.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Gustav_Graves, if what you say is true, then the UK leaving shouldn't be a big deal. They will just renegotiate a better deal than they had before. At the end of the day, this should not be a gun to one's head type discussion. It should be about shared interests. Those interests have to be articulated clearly. If they can't be, or if the people don't believe it, then the system needs to be reformed. I believe it's as simple as that.

    A lot of credibility was lost due to the Greek debacle, and now the migrant issue. The lawmakers look like a bunch of uncaring dictatorial imbeciles, and that's not instilling confidence.

    The EU on their behalf is quite sick and tired about 'renegotiations'. A deal was already renegotiated heavily. And that's actually what this referendum is about. Voting "YES" or "NO" with regard to staying in the EU and all its renegotiated terms (executed last year by Cameron).

    Brussels has already said that it isn't in the modd to start negotiations on trade agreements with the EU once the UK leaves the EU. They are not willing at all to turn the UK into a 2nd Norway. Because Norway always stood firm, they always said "NO" to the EU. European politicians might feel angry and disrespected by the UK. So don't expect any trade agreement negotiations anytime soon.

    The UK has to survive on its own altogether, without Norway-esque trade agreements.
    I'm aware of Cameron's deal. This is exactly why the UK hopefully will leave. Cameron's deal appears not to so clearly reflect the people's wishes.

    Every deal, how well negotiated, would have been marked as 'insufficient'. Even if that deal would include an unofficial leave. Deals are about compromising. Always and foremost. And that is a fact that a lot of people can't swallow.
    I think you're presuming a lot about people's ability to swallow. They are fully aware of compromise. They compromise every 4-5 yrs when they elect their leaders. There are degrees of compromise that people can and will willingly accept, and the EU appears to be outstaying its welcome.
  • Posts: 11,119
    " In this ever globalizing world, small, fearful, closed, xenophobic countries are destined to lose"
    That's Britain, as we're having a vote, no one else is ? I agree you didn't say it directly, after all
    All the best insults are "Implied"

    Only clearing up a point you raised, as like a kid I'm running away (:|
    Not getting involved in this argument again.
    I feel as welcome as a fart in a space suit .

    But, I am stunned that you feel personally attacked by that. I never called you personally a xenophobe. It's not an insult. I get that blaimfinger all the time. If I mention the Interbellum for instance, people start to say that I am insulting all the time.

    These discussions are not about feeling welcome @Thunderpussy. These discussions are about serious issues. And I am very sorry, but you make it sound that leaving the EU is a great thing. I don't. I sincerely believe it will have dire consequences. And in a free world -at least for now- I have every right to say that.

    But please don't take things so personal.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    "Just business " ;) no problem, but I'm still not getting involved, I'm used to a less
    Confrontational type of discussion.
  • Posts: 11,119
    "Just business " ;) no problem, but I'm still not getting involved, I'm used to a less
    Confrontational type of discussion.

    I don't want to make people like you feel bad :(. I just want to know your arguments too @Thunderpussy. It would be so nice if you can....at least give a valid set of arguments why you think leaving the UK is a good thing.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I do not mind the the EU it stops single countries within Europe from doing stupid things that might result in a horrific result.
    We are still picking the fruit from running like blind morons after Bush Jr his stupid and unwarranted wars in The middle east, guess whose political leadership did know about the lie and decided to follow blindly.

    Leaving the EU will be a blow for the EU but they will survive, the UK is under some idea that renegatiations will be to the Uk's benefit. I doubt it sincerely as they already got way too much from the last compromise. UK will be an economic solist with not that much too offer, and Especially Trumps US will milk the UK as much as he can as he if for US first and the rest last. So economical I expect the UK will be bleeding severely.
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    An Important Political Announcement 
         From The European Parliament 

    In order to get Britain to vote to stay in Europe,English 
    Will become the official European Language .
    However, our Government had to accept that 'English'
    had room for improvement and has agreed to a five year phase-in of amendments.
      In the first year, ' S' will replace the soft 'C'
    Sertainly making Sivil Servants happy!
    The hard 'C' will be dropped in favour of 'K' to klear up 
    any konfusion,
    There will be much publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when 'ph' will be replaced by 'F' making words like fotograf much shorter.
    In year 3, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan
    be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible; the removal of 
    double letters which have always ben a deterent to
    akurate speling.
    Also al wil agre that the horibl silent 'e' in the languag is
    useless .
    By yer 4 pepl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing
    'h' with 'z'  and 'w' with 'v' .
    In ze fifz yer, ze unesesary  'o' kan be dropd from vords 
    kontaining 'ou', so in zips yer, ve vil hav a sensibl riten styl. 
    Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand  ech oza.

    Und after zis fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German; 
    lik zey vunted in ze first plas.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2016 Posts: 9,117

    May I remind you this?? The UK overwhelmingly voted "YES" back in 1976 to enter the European Union. You know why? Because your own politicians made a mess of the welfare in prosperity in the UK. And as many EU nations were enjoying much better financial situations, you then decided "Oowh, let's join!".

    You should have voted "NO" back then, instead of blaiming the EU for all the mess.

    Oh I see. That's how democracy works is it? Once you vote for something you are stuck with it for life?

    You are correct to say that in 1976 the Labour shambles of a government had the country on its knees and we thought the EU sounded like a good idea.

    40 years on its the EU that's on its knees now so why would we want to stay in?

    All well and good all your fluffy 'let's all work together, think of your grandchildren' drivel but the reality of life is people think 'how will this affect house prices and my pension?' And for some strange reason a lot of people in the UK seem to think that being in a partnership with economic lame ducks like Greece is hardly a desirable state of affairs.

    Just because you're happy with the status quo doesn't mean everyone is. And just because we want out isn't a vote in favour of our politicians its more a rejection of of the Eurocrats.
    I prefer to be ruled by EU-bureacrats than Kremlin-bureaucrats. And it sickens me that we actually think this way.

    What? How is that going to happen?

    I don't think Vlad is scared in the slightest of the EU with or without the UK. We need his gas too much so to think the EU is some sort of serious bulwark against him is a bit of an underwhelming argument.


  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Yes the EU countries can still work together if their interests align. If Russia started (or continued) its postering, no doubt the member countries would unite out of self preservation anyway, no?
  • Posts: 15,125
    The more I read this thread the more I think I'll vote out.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The more I read this thread the more I think I'll vote out.

    In a way, me too. If there's one country who always observed the European continent without actually being located on it, then it's the UK. The UK was never a true European voice. And when they joined the EU in the 1970's, they joined purely for economical/financial reasons, whereas the initial founders of the EU were really into creating a loose union to maintain peace and prosperity so close after WW II.

    Would be interesting to see what kind of mess we'll get once the UK leaves this month.

  • Posts: 520
    I am for OUT.
    Democracy trumps everything and the Camster's faux nego was for the read and laugh file.
    He went for 'thin gruel' and he came back with 'no gruel'.
    The boy's a ConFed and he should do the honest thing and come out.
    Trade will continue exactly as before. The first one to blink over that one will be smoking boots before he can say mine's a Vesper !
    The Merka will want to sell just as many emission cheating vehicles in the US as she's always done. Ditto the French with their wine and cheese.
    Of course we'll have to abide by Eu laws when we export to member countries. You have to do that with any country you export to but we won't have to abide by them in our home market.
    We'll be free to do trade deals with who we like without having to agree them with 27 others who all want something different. Just look at TTIP, it's in tatters.
    Obamarama gave us one of his pregnant pause speeches and told us we'd be at the back of the queue albeit he didn't really understand that there is no queue.
    Economically, providing the Eu doesn't collapse we'll be just fine.
    The risk is contagion. When we vote out Denmark and Sweden could well bolt for the door and there could be significant unrest in other countries. I hope that doesn't happen but if it does, democracy has to prevail and more fool the eurocrats for embarking on their power play.
    The € is a busted flush and who'd want to be in a club with 27 others who all want a federal Europe. Up your Junker !
  • Posts: 520
    I have to laugh at the tales of doom coming fro tne "Stay in" camp.
    The IMF have predicted another recession for us if we leave.
    ( Strange they couldn't see the Banks failing, leading to the the total
    bankruptcy of many countries ) but they have the predictive powers
    to see this.
    The Peace in N.Ireland will collapse ( acording to William Haig ) and
    the possibility of war in Europe is almost certain said David Cameron.
    :))
    Seriously the next prediction must be that if the UK leaves there will be
    an Alien invasion, or Zombie Apocalypse ! :D

    I've heard worse. Evidently the Camster is now saying that if we come out we'll suffer a plague of a new strain of syphilis only curable with an antidote sold my the Merka.

  • Posts: 15,125
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The more I read this thread the more I think I'll vote out.

    In a way, me too. If there's one country who always observed the European continent without actually being located on it, then it's the UK. The UK was never a true European voice. And when they joined the EU in the 1970's, they joined purely for economical/financial reasons, whereas the initial founders of the EU were really into creating a loose union to maintain peace and prosperity so close after WW II.

    Would be interesting to see what kind of mess we'll get once the UK leaves this month.

    But the EU is a mess to begin with anyway. It's a loose union as you say that is behaving like a federation and bosses around what should be sovereign nations. A union that has become morbidly obese: too many members, too many bureaucrats, too many rules one has to abide, etc. It's one of the reasons I don't like it and I am probably going to vote out. That and the fact that the IN campaign has been using cheap scare tactics.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The more I read this thread the more I think I'll vote out.

    In a way, me too. If there's one country who always observed the European continent without actually being located on it, then it's the UK. The UK was never a true European voice. And when they joined the EU in the 1970's, they joined purely for economical/financial reasons, whereas the initial founders of the EU were really into creating a loose union to maintain peace and prosperity so close after WW II.

    Would be interesting to see what kind of mess we'll get once the UK leaves this month.

    But the EU is a mess to begin with anyway. It's a loose union as you say that is behaving like a federation and bosses around what should be sovereign nations. A union that has become morbidly obese: too many members, too many bureaucrats, too many rules one has to abide, etc. It's one of the reasons I don't like it and I am probably going to vote out. That and the fact that the IN campaign has been using cheap scare tactics.

    I understand your reasoning. As long as you use your vote carefully. Then you can vote whatever you want. I think it's also better if I do not post in here anymore. We all have our worries. But once we make the division worse, it's better to move away.
  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    edited June 2016 Posts: 308
    I'm not English, but I do hope it will be out. The EU is an undemocratic monster. There is nothing wrong with European countries working together, but we should be able to make are own laws.

    The EU simply can't work because of the cultural and economical differences between the northern, east and southern countries. We don't even speak the same language...

    If Britain is excluded from the "common" market - it just goes to show what kind of "union" you were a member of.

    Another thing is the horrid that is the euro. Southern countries are a complete mess financially and stronger countries will have to pay to keep them from going bankrupt (including Britain). The euro might have worked when only economically strong countries participated (The Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Belgium etc.).

    I hope it's out, and I hope other countries will follow soon after. Let's us then work together closely as european countries but let the people of the countries make their own choices.

    I found the documentary "Brexit the movie" to be very interesting:
  • Posts: 11,119
    Has anybody seen the movie "Trumbo" ?
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I am curious when there will be the next Scottish referendum for leaving the UK when Brexit will really come true. And what will come after that? Maybe we will come to the point where there is no mismatch anymore between British national teams (England, Wales, Scottland, N. Ireland) and countries as we have it today.
  • Posts: 11,119
    GBF wrote: »
    I am curious when there will be the next Scottish referendum for leaving the UK when Brexit will really come true. And what will come after that? Maybe we will come to the point where there is no mismatch anymore between British national teams (England, Wales, Scottland, N. Ireland) and countries as we have it today.

    I just did an extensive comparison between the Scotland-Independence Referendum and the Brexit Referendum, and in all honesty, the "Leaving the EU"-vote has a much better shot at winning the Brexit referendum than the "Scotland Becomes Independent"-vote 2 years ago. Here's me analysis with trend lines:

    D2AC0TG.png

    You are raising a fair point. Scotland will demand a 2nd referendum to opt out from the United Kingdom. Because for Scotland the EU has many more advantages. Actually, Scotland has always been more pro-EU than the other countries of the British Realm in Europe (Northern-Ireland, Wales and England).

    In all honesty, I hope people at least agree with me on one point: A vote to leave the EU will result in more unstability, more unknowns and more risks about the short-term future of the economy as compared to the 'remain in the EU'-vote.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Intersting analysis that scares me a little bit. I hope people finally become less certain when it comes to the election. I mean the results of a Brexit are really unpredictable. Hence, it is not surprising that the British business men will more or less entirely vote against a Brexit. I think it is far more an emotional elecetion in a period of rising nationalism all over Europe. For example, the immigration debate is somewhat strange. As far as I know the UK is not part of the Schengen area and hence does not grant free mobility for all people inside the EU. However, the UK and Ireland were among the first who voluntarily granted free immigration for workers from Poland, Lithuania and other new EU countries back in 2006. And Britain predominantly benefited from these often high skilled migrants. Now in times of the refugge crisis, Brexit supporters point at the EU, however, how many refugees from Syria have actually come to the UK? There are other EU countries like Greece, Austria and Germany who really have to face the burden whereas other countries just say no. I accept their decision but why do they complain about the refugge crisis when they are hardly affected by it?
  • Posts: 11,119
    GBF wrote: »
    Intersting analysis that scares me a little bit. I hope people finally become less certain when it comes to the election. I mean the results of a Brexit are really unpredictable. Hence, it is not surprising that the British business men will more or less entirely vote against a Brexit. I think it is far more an emotional elecetion in a period of rising nationalism all over Europe. For example, the immigration debate is somewhat strange. As far as I know the UK is not part of the Schengen area and hence does not grant free mobility for all people inside the EU. However, the UK and Ireland were among the first who voluntarily granted free immigration for workers from Poland, Lithuania and other new EU countries back in 2006. And Britain predominantly benefited from these often high skilled migrants. Now in times of the refugge crisis, Brexit supporters point at the EU, however, how many refugees from Syria have actually come to the UK? There are other EU countries like Greece, Austria and Germany who really have to face the burden whereas other countries just say no. I accept their decision but why do they complain about the refugge crisis when they are hardly affected by it?

    There. Thank you. You're hitting the nail on the head. Scapegoating is a common practice in societies which are more fearful.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    There. Thank you. You're hitting the nail on the head. Scapegoating is a common practice in societies which are more fearful.

    I seem to remember you predicting the deaths of millions of people in Europe in another thread about a similar subject a few months ago. Enough with the fear mongering on both the Pro-EU side and the Brexit side.
  • Posts: 11,119
    There. Thank you. You're hitting the nail on the head. Scapegoating is a common practice in societies which are more fearful.

    I seem to remember you predicting the deaths of millions of people in Europe in another thread about a similar subject a few months ago. Enough with the fear mongering on both the Pro-EU side and the Brexit side.

    Excuse me? Perhaps you are referring to a Grexit? But I don't recall that I predicted the death of millions. Your remark worries me.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2016 Posts: 9,117
    GBF wrote: »
    how many refugees from Syria have actually come to the UK? There are other EU countries like Greece, Austria and Germany who really have to face the burden whereas other countries just say no. I accept their decision but why do they complain about the refugge crisis when they are hardly affected by it?

    Germany didn't have to face any burden. Merkel said everyone is welcome.

    I feel sorry for Greece as they are the first port of call for all the refugees and the EU (including Britain) should do more do assist them with this problem. And I also feel sorry for small countries between Greece and Germany like Slovenia and Slovakia who thanks to Merkel deciding to speak for the whole continent led to thousands hammering on their borders trying to get to the promised land.

    Although the Syrians are something of a non argument in the Brexit debate as we don't have to let them in as they are non EU and Britain is not in the Schengen.

    Having said that how long before Merkel gives them all EU passports and they can go where they want?

    In all honesty, I hope people at least agree with me on one point: A vote to leave the EU will result in more unstability, more unknowns and more risks about the short-term future of the economy as compared to the 'remain in the EU'-vote.

    Agreed.

    But that's not a reason to vote to stay. If you have gangrene do you sit there watching it move up your leg or do you accept the unknowns of what life will be like without it and cut it off?

    Yes there is a fear of the unknown if we go but the fear of the known is worse.

    Hopefully the UK leaving followed by countries like Sweden and the Netherlands will be the slap across the chops the away needs to reform itself from the bloated FIFA clone that it has become.
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    I'm not English, but I do hope it will be out. The EU is an undemocratic monster. There is nothing wrong with European countries working together, but we should be able to make are own laws.

    The EU simply can't work because of the cultural and economical differences between the northern, east and southern countries. We don't even speak the same language...

    If Britain is excluded from the "common" market - it just goes to show what kind of "union" you were a member of.

    Another thing is the horrid that is the euro. Southern countries are a complete mess financially and stronger countries will have to pay to keep them from going bankrupt (including Britain). The euro might have worked when only economically strong countries participated (The Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Belgium etc.).

    I hope it's out, and I hope other countries will follow soon after. Let's us then work together closely as european countries but let the people of the countries make their own choices.

    I found the documentary "Brexit the movie" to be very interesting:

    Bang on Sir.

    If the option of joining an EU premier league of Germany, Nerherlands, Sweden, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland and (grudgingly) France I'd be straight in. It's the southern countries that drag us all down.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Denmark was never part of the Euro Zone. But like Norway who is only an associated member, Euros are valid money there.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I think the EU referendum question essentially boils down to:

    The UK still has balls [Vote LEAVE]
    The UK is castrated [Vote REMAIN]
  • Posts: 11,119
    Are there any pro-EU people here? Or am I the only one in here who's considered a dumb ass and 'irritating' Europhile?
This discussion has been closed.