The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • Posts: 11,119
    I regard quotes like "Let's build a wall" or "Throw them out" as nonsensical as well ;)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/spate-of-racist-attacks-blamed-on-brexit-vote/
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    edited June 2016 Posts: 13,384
    Yes, this was mentioned last night, surprisingly we have laws against this, and
    I'm sure it will deal with those involved.
    There are also racist attacks in the EU, so it happens even in the Magical Kingdom.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Not everyone who voted for Brexit is an uneducated, racist dolt. How many times does this have to be mentioned? People have come to different conclusions.

    There will always be simpleton idiots who get riled up, and whose passions are inflamed by these sort of things, as is the case whenever there is a 'radical Islamist' attack somewhere. That's just the way it is.

    Cameron should step up and have a joint statement, perhaps with Johnson (as defacto leader of Leave), showing 'unity' and telling the nation that the choice has been made & that everyone should calm down and respect the vote.

    The lack of leadership at the top post-vote is quite troubling, and leads me to conclude that they'll try to find some way to stay in ultimately, after a few more heads have rolled.
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    Not everyone who voted for Brexit is an uneducated, racist dolt. How many times does this have to be mentioned? People have come to different conclusions.

    There will always be simpleton idiots who get riled up, and whose passions are inflamed by these sort of things, as is the case whenever there is a 'radical Islamist' attack somewhere. That's just the way it is.

    Cameron should step up and have a joint statement, perhaps with Johnson (as defacto leader of Leave), showing 'unity' and telling the nation that the choice has been made & that everyone should calm down and respect the vote.

    The lack of leadership at the top post-vote is quite troubling, and leads me to conclude that they'll find some way to stay in ultimately, after a few more heads have rolled.

    I know that. And every logical human being should know that I am only aiming at those people who execute these atrocities. Boris Johnson is not a racist. A big majority of all Brexit-ers are not racists. I know that. But people should be wary of the current sentiment..... And it isn't a nice one. Everyone who now says that the United Kingdom is the personification of unity, is lying.

    Like Republicans Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan do in the USA -being silent on the bigotry that's among us-, truly is the wrong example. And I see it now with David Cameron, Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson as well.

    A huge majority -perhaps 95%- of all Conservatives, Tories and Republicans aren't racists. Kudos for that. But racists on the other hand almost never vote on a left-wing party. So especially now I really expect, like you said @BondJames, a huge condemnation from all pro-Brexit-ers. And not just silence and ignorance.

    Only then the 'United' Kingdom can become really united again.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    Not everyone who voted for Brexit is an uneducated, racist dolt. How many times does this have to be mentioned? People have come to different conclusions.

    There will always be simpleton idiots who get riled up, and whose passions are inflamed by these sort of things, as is the case whenever there is a 'radical Islamist' attack somewhere. That's just the way it is.

    Cameron should step up and have a joint statement, perhaps with Johnson (as defacto leader of Leave), showing 'unity' and telling the nation that the choice has been made & that everyone should calm down and respect the vote.

    The lack of leadership at the top post-vote is quite troubling, and leads me to conclude that they'll find some way to stay in ultimately, after a few more heads have rolled.

    I know that. And every logical human being should know that I am only aiming at those people who execute these atrocities. Boris Johnson is not a racist. A big majority of all Brexit-ers are not racists. I know that. But people should be wary of the current sentiment..... And it isn't a nice one. Everyone who now says that the United Kingdom is the personification of unity, is lying.

    Like Republicans Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan do in the USA -being silent on the bigotry that's among us-, truly is the wrong example. And I see it now with David Cameron, Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson as well.

    A huge majority -perhaps 95%- of all Conservatives, Tories and Republicans aren't racists. Kudos for that. But racists on the other hand almost never vote on a left-wing party. So especially now I really expect, like you said @BondJames, a huge condemnation from all pro-Brexit-ers. And not just silence and ignorance.

    Only then the 'United' Kingdom can become really united again.

    And the continent is awash with unwavering tolerance. Spain and Greece have been notable for their disgusting behaviour on many occasions. Tensions are running high, with the most hardcore unleashing their filth on undeserving immigrants, but until I see otherwise I would maintain that the vast majority of Brits are some of the most tolerant individuals in Europe. Yes, you're correct that a leftist racist is wholly unlikely, but what you will find on the left is a swathe of patronising, sanctimonious, intellectuals who treat their own people with contempt unless they fall in line. Hopefully most of us occupy a rational middle-ground.
  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Not everyone who voted for Brexit is an uneducated, racist dolt. How many times does this have to be mentioned? People have come to different conclusions.

    There will always be simpleton idiots who get riled up, and whose passions are inflamed by these sort of things, as is the case whenever there is a 'radical Islamist' attack somewhere. That's just the way it is.

    Cameron should step up and have a joint statement, perhaps with Johnson (as defacto leader of Leave), showing 'unity' and telling the nation that the choice has been made & that everyone should calm down and respect the vote.

    The lack of leadership at the top post-vote is quite troubling, and leads me to conclude that they'll find some way to stay in ultimately, after a few more heads have rolled.

    I know that. And every logical human being should know that I am only aiming at those people who execute these atrocities. Boris Johnson is not a racist. A big majority of all Brexit-ers are not racists. I know that. But people should be wary of the current sentiment..... And it isn't a nice one. Everyone who now says that the United Kingdom is the personification of unity, is lying.

    Like Republicans Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan do in the USA -being silent on the bigotry that's among us-, truly is the wrong example. And I see it now with David Cameron, Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson as well.

    A huge majority -perhaps 95%- of all Conservatives, Tories and Republicans aren't racists. Kudos for that. But racists on the other hand almost never vote on a left-wing party. So especially now I really expect, like you said @BondJames, a huge condemnation from all pro-Brexit-ers. And not just silence and ignorance.

    Only then the 'United' Kingdom can become really united again.

    And the continent is awash with unwavering tolerance. Spain and Greece have been notable for their disgusting behaviour on many occasions. Tensions are running high, with the most hardcore unleashing their filth on undeserving immigrants, but until I see otherwise I would maintain that the vast majority of Brits are some of the most tolerant individuals in Europe. Yes, you're correct that a leftist racist is wholly unlikely, but what you will find on the left is a swathe of patronising, sanctimonious, intellectuals who treat their own people with contempt unless they fall in line. Hopefully most of us occupy a rational middle-ground.

    I live in Spain. I work in Spain. I pay my Spanish taxes. And I tell you one thing. I am not being bullied.

    And you can say many things about intellectuals, but they don't do these things. Yes, they have been ignorant towards the lower end of the middle class and their struggles. But bigotry? Come on....:
    864x486.jpg
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Are you really going to judge a whole nation by a handful of bigots ?
    Isn't that rather bigoted itself ?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,334
    @Gustav come on, have you forgotten the 'Polen meldpunt' 'Polish declarationwebsite' of the PVV only a couple of years ago? No, people don't discriminate you in Spain, but they would if you were part of a far larger group, preferrably obviously different and easy to spot like Polish, Hungarian or, outside the EU, Arabic/ Nort African.

    If you can find a 'Dutch people go home' sign anywhere in the UK let me know.

    All forms of discrtimination are bad. But linking the Brexit to this, is again pointing a finger and not trying to solve a problem (and unjust to many Britons!).

    The basic rule is that if you add more then 10% of a 'stranger's' group to an existing group, they will be seen as foreign and treated as a thread. It's human nature. And yes, the EU's incapabillity to cope with the refugee crisis is one of the examples and reasons behind the Brexit. But that's not because of right wing extremism, but because of incompetence and the hope of the British people their government WILL act, where the EU failed.

    tbh i'm kind of worried about the fear you're displaying. If you're as fearfull to anything that doesn't go your way as you've been here with the Brexit, you've got a scary life indeed.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    The far right had always been rejected in Britain, which has been multicultural
    Since the 50s. In fact Britain has come to the aid of Europe, when they have
    Followed extreme right wing leaders. ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    The basic rule is that if you add more then 10% of a 'stranger's' group to an existing group, they will be seen as foreign and treated as a thread. It's human nature. And yes, the EU's incapabillity to cope with the refugee crisis is one of the examples and reasons behind the Brexit. But that's not because of right wing extremism, but because of incompetence and the hope of the British people their government WILL act, where the EU failed.
    I was just about to say the same thing. You saved me the trouble. The rate of assimilation is the key, and when there are vast numbers of new immigrants (particularly those with cultural differences), there is bound to be some resistance, particularly in times of economic hardship. That's just the way it goes, and was the case when large numbers came from the Commonwealth countries in the 70's and earlier.

    Having said that, it's curious that London voted to 'remain' and it is the place with the largest visible minority immigration population. That suggests to me that the economic situation is the real driver of Brexit. Those who have suffered under 'globalization' and who feel left behind are lashing out at immigrants and at anything 'foreign' (including the EU) by delivering what is in essence a massive protest vote at the direction the country is headed in. It's a vote for more isolationism at its core, and that is similar to what is happening in the US.

    The generational divide (young voted to stay, older to leave) is also a key dynamic that must be analyzed. Ironically, it is the 'young' who have less job security and prospects, and yet they voted 'remain' according to stats.
  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    Posts: 308
    I regard quotes like "Let's build a wall" or "Throw them out" as nonsensical as well ;)

    I agree. Just like I find a quote like "old white people please die" sickening.

    Couple of days ago I shared a video in this thread in which a protest sign with that very message was seen. But I don't hear @Gustav_Graves about that nor do I see that reported in the "mainstream" media.

    http://www.therebel.media/shock_video_i_was_attacked_by_anti_fascist_thugs_in_london (2:41)
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Yes @Jeffrey extremists of all political views use Fascist tactics, clearly displayed in
    That video. There are no good, decent, polite extremists of Left or Right. There are
    However millions of decent people who reject all extremist views, but who do have
    Concerns about the level of immigration, doesn't make them bigots ( as Gordon
    Brown told one voter )
    If the mainstream political parties don't enter in to a debate, saying even to mention
    It, is a bigoted view. Then they themselves leave the door open for extremist groups
    To gain ground support, that's how it happens.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    Are you really going to judge a whole nation by a handful of bigots ?
    Isn't that rather bigoted itself ?

    No. I didn't do that. You're putting incorrect words in my mouth.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,334
    bondjames wrote: »
    The basic rule is that if you add more then 10% of a 'stranger's' group to an existing group, they will be seen as foreign and treated as a thread. It's human nature. And yes, the EU's incapabillity to cope with the refugee crisis is one of the examples and reasons behind the Brexit. But that's not because of right wing extremism, but because of incompetence and the hope of the British people their government WILL act, where the EU failed.
    I was just about to say the same thing. You saved me the trouble. The rate of assimilation is the key, and when there are vast numbers of new immigrants (particularly those with cultural differences), there is bound to be some resistance, particularly in times of economic hardship. That's just the way it goes, and was the case when large numbers came from the Commonwealth countries in the 70's and earlier.

    Having said that, it's curious that London voted to 'remain' and it is the place with the largest visible minority immigration population. That suggests to me that the economic situation is the real driver of Brexit. Those who have suffered under 'globalization' and who feel left behind are lashing out at immigrants and at anything 'foreign' (including the EU) by delivering what is in essence a massive protest vote at the direction the country is headed in. It's a vote for more isolationism at its core, and that is similar to what is happening in the US.

    The generational divide (young voted to stay, older to leave) is also a key dynamic that must be analyzed. Ironically, it is the 'young' who have less job security and prospects, and yet they voted 'remain' according to stats.
    Yup. and more interestingly, the young had the lowest voting percentage. Quite worrysome when it comes to these matters. whichever the vote would've gone, it would've bene far better if more then 36% of the 18-24y/o had taken the effort to vote....
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I'd say more voted for Britain's got talent. :(
  • Posts: 11,119
    All forms of discrtimination are bad. But linking the Brexit to this, is again pointing a finger and not trying to solve a problem (and unjust to many Britons!).

    That is simply not true. Are we all deaf and ignorant here? I'm not pointing fingers. I say, that the Brexit DID create an environment that is at least less friendly to immigrants. If even that fact is being slammed down, then you're simply ignorant.

    You only solve problems like these, by giving a firm statement. That,,...THAT should be the starting point for healing AND solutions. Like Barones Sayeeda Warsi did! She's a conservative too you know? At least SHE is firm, speaks out against all elements of racism, bigotry and xenophobia. But I want to hear the same tone from Boris Johnson and David Cameron. But no, they are 'silent'.

    You say "all forms of discrimination are bad", but you give absolutely zero insight in that problem, how small and little they may be. You just say it's there. And then you blatantly imply, that I am accusing ALL Britons for that. I find that rather pervert.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    All forms of discrtimination are bad. But linking the Brexit to this, is again pointing a finger and not trying to solve a problem (and unjust to many Britons!).

    That is simply not true. Are we all deaf and ignorant here? I'm not pointing fingers. I say, that the Brexit DID create an environment that is at least less friendly to immigrants. If even that fact is being slammed down, then you're simply ignorant.

    You only solve problems like these, by giving a firm statement. That,,...THAT should be the starting point for healing AND solutions. Like Barones Sayeeda Warsi did! She's a conservative too you know? At least SHE is firm, speaks out against all elements of racism, bigotry and xenophobia. But I want to hear the same tone from Boris Johnson and David Cameron. But no, they are 'silent'.

    You say "all forms of discrimination are bad", but you give absolutely zero insight in that problem, how small and little they may be. You just say it's there. And then you blatantly imply, that I am accusing ALL Britons for that. I find that rather pervert.
    At this moment in Britain's history, less indiscriminate & compassionate immigration may in fact be the way to go. There are far more pressing problems to handle in the UK than letting more migrants in without conditions.

    Those who can show that they will tangibly benefit the economy (at a strategic level - so those with high education in key areas that are lacking in the UK - no matter where they are from) should perhaps be the priority.

    It's all a matter of timing, and it's all linked to globalization and economic competitiveness.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    " If even that fact is being slammed down, then you're simply ignorant "
    Friendly as always, odd that someone apparently filled with such empathy
    For others, can also be so aggressive in their use of language. :D
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2016 Posts: 15,723
    That is simply not true. Are we all deaf and ignorant here? I'm not pointing fingers. I say, that the Brexit DID create an environment that is at least less friendly to immigrants. If even that fact is being slammed down, then you're simply ignorant.be.

    Are you living in some kind of bubble or something? Do you know how many anti-immigrants comments I've read on Twitter and Facebook in my country in the past 2 years? A shitload of them. So no, Brexit created nothing that didn't exist already in Europe. Enough with that shit. Stop being negative on what is going on. And why are you even quoting these 'experts' who are saying the UK will factually have economy problems, when these same experts were oblivious to the 2008 crash even within the previous few weeks before it took place? Why do they suddenly know a sh*t that is going to happen?
  • The problem is the politics of fear that has been employed by all the world's politic since 9/11, basically to frighten the general public into allowing them to do whatever they like in the name of the people, propaganda, that has been lapped up & enhanced by a salivating media that transmits 24/7, it's quite Orwellian.

    "The end of democracy and the defeat of the Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." - Thomas Jefferson 1825.

    Maybe the financial institutions that govern our lives will have to accept change, maybe this is the beginning of a great revolution when we the people take our first steps in taking back control of our nations, when candidates for office will take the lead from the great & the good, be bound by a code of integrity & deference to the position they hold, serve the public & not themselves.......Yeh, fat chance 8-}
  • Posts: 11,119
    That is simply not true. Are we all deaf and ignorant here? I'm not pointing fingers. I say, that the Brexit DID create an environment that is at least less friendly to immigrants. If even that fact is being slammed down, then you're simply ignorant.be.

    Are you living in some kind of bubble or something? Do you know how many anti-immigrants comments I've read on Twitter and Facebook in my country in the past 2 years? A shitload of them. So no, Brexit created nothing that didn't exist already in Europe. Enough with that shit. Stop being negative on what is going on. And why are you even quoting these 'experts' who are saying the UK will factually have economy problems, when these same experts were oblivious to the 2008 crash even within the previous few weeks before it took place? Why do they suddenly know a sh*t that is going to happen?

    Ughhh, I never said that! I NEVER NEVER said that Brexit created all this. But it did enhance a less friendly atmosphere.

    And dammit, I have every right to point out problems. I cannot turn my above examples into sweet chocolate! It exists. And it has risen in the past decade. All I ask is a better, more firm answer from the current British leaders.
  • I'd say more voted for Britain's got talent. :(

    Yes if remain had a cute performing dog act they'd have won with a landslide, of sh*t they did Dave & his poodle Georgy, watch him he bites :D
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Sadly Britain has no leadership at the moment. :(
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    edited June 2016 Posts: 299
    More alarmingly, I doubt Britain had leadership before. I know why I'm quite happy with Nicola. Gal didn't waste the weekend hiding, went right to work.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    True. The lack of leadership has just been painfully exposed as a result of this referendum. All the veils have been ripped apart and everything is laid bare for the voters (and sadly, the world) to see.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2016 Posts: 15,723
    Well why don't you give us positive solutions instead of only point out the problems? That's what the whole piss-poor Remain campaign was about - 'let's point out all the problems about Brexit, but we won't say a word on the benefits of staying in the EU'. And no, I am not drawing a specific target on you or any Inners in this thread, but rather the Pro Eu politicians, from UK and other countries, who did a woeful at creating a positive campaign on voting Remain. As I said, I don't care which side you are on, and I am not taking sides, I am only tired of all the endless negativity this referendum campaign went through. If the EU is such a good thing, why do its supporters keep on being negative on Anti EU people instead of being positive about what they are defending?
  • Posts: 11,119
    Sadly Britain has no leadership at the moment. :(

    And it's so easy. Look, what I should say, if I was PM:

    "Not all efforts of unity should be in vain. Let's keep that in mind. Our unity is 'The United Kingdom', and not the 'Divided Kingdom'. Everyone who is currently working on our beloved island, and who is positively contributing to our culture, society, economy, needs to feel that they are welcome. Especially now, when we are at a difficult, but perhaps positive turning point in our history. I will not accept any bigotry aimed at people who do exactly those things that made our country great....and united: The United Kingdom."
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Dave's making a speech right now.
  • Campbell2 wrote: »
    More alarmingly, I doubt Britain had leadership before. I know why I'm quite happy with Nicola.

    The only problem with Ms Sturgeon, being a commited federalist/republican, ie wants rid of the Queen is that she does everything that is in her interest, she wishes to break up the union & make Scotland an independent state, fair enough, I've made no secret of the fact I think this would be a disaster for you & I don't really mind, however I do have issue with her budgetary skills, having seen Andrew Neil interview her after the Scottish elections & having obviously done more research into the hypothetical SNP independance budget than Ms Sturgeon, she was completely floundering, the holes in the finances were hugh, so I'd think twice before praising her for leadership skills because she could lead you down the river.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    More alarmingly, I doubt Britain had leadership before. I know why I'm quite happy with Nicola.

    The only problem with Ms Sturgeon, being a commited federalist/republican, ie wants rid of the Queen is that she does everything that is in her interest, she wishes to break up the union & make Scotland an independent state, fair enough, I've made no secret of the fact I think this would be a disaster for you & I don't really mind, however I do have issue with her budgetary skills, having seen Andrew Neil interview her after the Scottish elections & having obviously done more research into the hypothetical SNP independance budget than Ms Sturgeon, she was completely floundering, the holes in the finances were hugh, so I'd think twice before praising her for leadership skills because she could lead you down the river.

    What do you expect? She is PM of Scotland, not the UK.
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