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You are exactly the same as I am. But we are always so opposed to each other's ideas. I disagree with you. You isagree with me. Call me doomy and gloomy...and let the others who support your case say whatever they want to say.
Let's leave it all out altogether. We will never agree. Never. The future is always right though.
Says it all.
If we are such a pathetic, inconsequential little country why are you so petrified that the whole house of cards will come crashing down without us?
Simple: The EU will miss the UK for one thing and one thing only: £££££££££££££££
First off, the EU wasn't set up after WWII, it was the 'Union of coal and steel' that was set up between those six countries. Six, not 27. Yes, those who favoured a 'United States of Europe' were also part of this little band of brothers, but those were unrealistic (at those times) dreamers nobody could take seriously. The reason this economic Union was set up, was because the founders quite rightly concluded that if we were all economically interdependend, we wouldn't likely start another war. This, as it turns out, was a correct assesment.
Nobody at the time could have foreseen the collapse of the USSR, the unification of Germany or the expanditure of what started as an economic treaty entering the realm of politics and bureaucracy.
These are the mere facts, but they tell a different story then those , on a political level at least, who averse against the UK leaving the Union.
From now on it's completely my personal opinion: Boris Johnson is a clown who can't distinguish his arse from his elbow and, considering Godwin's law, should be ignored completely.
I don't think a political union between 27 cultures- and languages works. It doesn't work properly with three in Belgium (sorry @Dimi) allthough it must be said it works well in Switserland (basically 4 languages, but a very coherent culture. Again, sorry @Darth).
The trade story is utter nonsense, Britain, or England as Wales and Schotland return to the Union later on, will be able to have treatees on her own and you might even wonder if those treaties do make a difference nowedays. We trade with China as well, without treaties.
Personally, I'd like a political working together, but in a completely different way then the Union operates. The current Union is a bureaucratic monster which should be disbanded. Instead, I'd like to see a European palrement made up out of European ministers from every country who also preside in their respective governments, thus beeing voted in- or out by the electorate of those countries every 4 to 5 years.
Oh, and who said it was called 'Great Britain' and not 'Great portugal"? May I remind you that the Portugese were allready exploring the world when you could barely handle an oar, and claiming you started out as the biggest trading nation in the world would be historically wrong as not only did the Dutch beat you to it, but won 2 of the four wars they fought against you, a nation one tenth the size of yours, even then. No, your 'Greatness' comes from the 'Greater British Isles' and was used to not only mean England, but Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland as well. You'll lose that denomination when you leave and they want to stay.....
Well there is still a difference. It is in fact a big difference whether you have an internal market with equal standards or a free trade arrangement on a specific good for instance. And btw you see how complex it is to form such kind of an agreement when you look at the TTIP negotiations. On the contrary, the formation of an internal market requires a certain degree of bureaucracy since you have to agree on specific product standards and market rules. However, the majority of people are not affected by this kind of bureaucracy anyway. And what about the national bureaucracy? Nobody complains about that. Consider a business man who wants to sell his products to the other EU countries. If there was no EU market rules he had to be aware of 27 different market laws in order to sell his goods. This is an extrem export barrier. So even when the UK leaves the EU, the business men will stick to the "bureaucratic EU market rules". Otherwise they won't sell any products there.
And apart from that, what do you mean with "the bureaucratic monster"? Where are you personally affected by this monster? Have you ever heard of where the EU has competences of policy making at all? Do you know that not all kind of politics are made in Brussels? Do you know how all member states are involved in the policy process, both, in the parliament and in the Council of ministers? Can you tell me any European legislation that heavily went against the British advantage?
I honestly don't really care if the Britains want to leave or not but I agree that it is a scape goat debate. I only wonder who will be the next to blame when the UK will finally have left the EU and the EU cannot be the scape goat anymore.
“The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.” We may as well toss a coin.
And you know what I particularly hate about all this? Myself. Some 15 years ago I had similar ideas on how governmental institutions should be organized. Back then I was labeled as a moderate, a centrist with a progressive long-term vision. In today's western world, which seems to be increasingly dominated by populist voices, I am labeled as a 'leftie', an 'out of touch Europhile', a 'traitor', an 'establishment fucker'. It makes me even uncertain about myself. Perhaps there's something wrong with me.
The most interesting people always swim against the tide.
Free will thrives better in friendly environments
Well I think this is an open and free thread I have set up. I hope that all views get an airing here in the interests of community balance and democracy.
was :D
No.
The EU & NATO was a brave attempt to stop nationalistic arguments in Europe and talk our way out of horrible conflicts. The last one took place in former Yugoslavia and to this day I know I met too many people who were horribly scared by that experience.
Any time I hear the Nationalistic argument how a country is better off on its own I wonder who these people are fooling. As for the democratic vote to leave the EU I can only mirror that quote from Churchill about democracy which boils down to: "the best argument against democracy is a 5 minute discussion on political matter with an individual voter."
And indeed the British cause has not been defended well by its recent governments who blindly followed the US in their stupid schemes as the last wars. The only critical sounds came from the individual voters who did not believe that any war was a solution.
For me the root of the problem with the current refugee problem is these two daft and unwanted wars in the middle east that did only destabilize the whole region in such a way that the extremists and nutter got a large foothold. Now that the average civilian is running from murder and mayhem we have to close our borders and the one nation who was first in line to start the war with their big brother is now essentially voting to get the hell out of the mess they were responsible for to begin with.
I am proud of my nation and feel that we sometimes are too pro-Europe in liberalization of national matters as transport, media and energy cooperations. But I will have the Euro and the EU over all xenophobia and islamofobie.
Definitely Pro-Europe and without the UK we will manage and find a solution we will have to live with. Unless that Ginger Nutter gets his hands on the presidency he will use war and mayhem to manipulate Europe and the world to get a better deal for the US.
It is not nationalism that causes war, it's imperialism.
The end goal of the EU is "The United States of Europe / European Empire", while ignoring the differences between the European countries - forcing this "unification" might lead to war.
How the vote goes. Too many big Banks, companies and Politicians have too
Much to lose.
Imperialism id nothing but nationalism in another jacket, the United States of Europe will exist one day and we will be better of perhaps.
There has been no forcing to unification only a closer working together with plenty of space for the national character. That said looking at the Netherlands there is not even a unified believe, the people within the country itself have ideas about those in the south, the north, the farmers etc. Folks from Limburg have an accent that makes the sound dumb, those farmers in the Achterhoek are hicks etc. And yet the unification of the republic of the Netherlands has been a grand job. Thinking bigger seems to be an issue and yet we as a world population seem to be expanding all the time. We now have to find solutions together as we find more people on a smaller area.
So much truth in that statement TP. :-S
I don't believe we will ever come to the point of a United States of Europe. This could have been the case with countries like Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Austria but already in these rather pro EU countries we a tendency of rising nationalism.
I also don't know whether it is a good idea to have something like the US of Europe. I believe it would be a very fragile construction. Even though people like to travel to other EU countries, there are still many barriers, especially with regard to the languages and also the labour markets. I live in Germany very close to the French border, but it is way more easy to find a job in Berlin or Hamburg even though it is very far away compared to French cities like Paris or Strassbourg. In fact, even though the countries have come closer together during the period of European integration, the peopels' reality is still national. How many people speak more than one or at least two languages in Europe? How many people watch foreign TV shows or are well informed about foreign politics? Many European citicens have no knowledge about the EU politics and they don't care about it at all. They don't even know the EU politicicans of their own country.
I think it really should be the idealism of humanity really. Just watch Star Trek, how weird that example may sound. I would love to give up my Dutch passport for a United States Of Europe passport.
In a few hundred years, this will be the inevitable outcome: Humanity being more organized into one big United Federation Of Earth. And if that may sound weird? Several centuries ago there WAS no Netherlands. Around 1200 AD the plains that are now called Netherlands were fully occupied by the Batavia, poor nomads whose only means of surviving were fishing and hunting. Netherlands was one big disorganized mudpool. Nothing more.
Now it is 2016. Netherlands is at least for now a prosperous nation. But I call upon all Dutchies: Time to slowly dissolve and become part of a better organized, more peaceful and more democratic unity: The United States Of Europe. It would be my ultimate dream, and it would be the best counterweight to other insanely large landmasses, like China, USA and Russia.
Because make no mistake. The era of small nations is over. Everyone who thinks his small European nation can survive and still bring about prosperity and welfare in the long-term, is a fool. If the USA doesn't dictate policies in Europe, it will be China or Russia. But NOT the UK or Netherlands.
Wake up. Think of the true idealism of mankind: The United States Of Europe!
Yikes!
I don't understand why countries can't simply cooperate together to acheive mutual goals. Why must we wrap ourselves together in cling film to the point where individual countries can no longer operate independantly? Then again, I'm not a collectivist or a globalist. If France, for instance, became a totalitarian dictatorship the rest of Europe could join together to fight. If the US of Europe became such, who would fight against it? It's much safer that everything remains divided the way it is.