The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,282
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Hard and soft with a cherry on top.

    No doubt the fence-sitting position on Brexit. I like it!

    Fence-sitting?

    The mention of hard and soft, old chap.
  • Posts: 4,325
    Oh that wasn't fence sitting, that was mocking the notion of different Brexits - there can only be one - the word refers to leaving the EU - there's no hard or soft about it.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 2017 Posts: 18,282
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Oh that wasn't fence sitting, that was mocking the notion of different Brexits - there can only be one - the word refers to leaving the EU - there's no hard or soft about it.

    Ah, I see.

    So you voted LEAVE like me, then? :)
  • Posts: 4,325
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Oh that wasn't fence sitting, that was mocking the notion of different Brexits - there can only be one - the word refers to leaving the EU - there's no hard or soft about it.

    Ah, I see.

    So you voted LEAVE like me, then? :)

    Absolutely.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The delusional Remainers think there are shades of leaving the EU.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,053
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Oh that wasn't fence sitting, that was mocking the notion of different Brexits - there can only be one - the word refers to leaving the EU - there's no hard or soft about it.

    According to some desperately clutching at straws remainers we didn't actually vote to leave the single market/customs union etc. How's that for delusional?

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 2017 Posts: 18,282
    The delusional Remainers think there are shades of leaving the EU.

    Sore losers, fascists and general anti-democrats who only support democracy when it goes the way they voted? How is that democratic? How is that a democracy? Answer: it's not! In fact, it has much more to do with the main tenets of fascism than the Loony Left would ever care to admit or indeed even realise. Same thing with the Trump card.

  • Posts: 11,119
    The delusional Remainers think there are shades of leaving the EU.

    I don't. I want the UK to leave the EU as soon as possible. The only reason they entered the EU in the first place in the 1970's, was because of a dire economic situation, and because a majority of the British people wanted this in a referendum. Oust them NOW!
  • Posts: 11,119
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    The delusional Remainers think there are shades of leaving the EU.

    Sore losers, fascists and general anti-democrats who only support democracy when it goes the way they voted? How is that democratic? How is that a democracy? Answer: it's not! In fact, it has much more to do with the main tenets of fascism than the Loony Left would ever care to admit or indeed even realise. Same thing with the Trump card.

    Well put :-)
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,425
    stag wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Oh that wasn't fence sitting, that was mocking the notion of different Brexits - there can only be one - the word refers to leaving the EU - there's no hard or soft about it.

    According to some desperately clutching at straws remainers we didn't actually vote to leave the single market/customs union etc. How's that for delusional?

    Well Boris Johnson told the nation that we could leave the EU and stay in the single market. He even insinuated there might be a second referendum. A lot of people believed what he was saying was true.

    This just underlines my point that most leave voters didn't know what they were voting for - infact they still don't know what they voted for.

    This is how the Leave campaign won - promising anything and everything to all people. Whatever you want Brexit to be - that would be what you'd get. The way the question was phrased and the fact the Leave campaign didn't have to set out what leaving actually means, made this task very easy for them. As I said, what is incredible is how high the Remain vote was.

    Technically we can of course leave the EU and stay in the single market, but we will be 'shackled' even more to the EU than we were when we were in inside.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    The EU will make it difficult to secede with grace, and it's likely to be a drawn out negotiation.

    Merkel and Co. are playing hardball, but both sides need each other for trade in goods and services. The stickling point is immigration and access of people.

    Let's see what happens with the French elections. That will determine how this process plays out. I expect Merkel to win in Germany. I also expect some serious Russian bashing this year (much more than we've had to date, if that's even possible) to distract attention from the EU's troubles.

    Both sides will be significantly weaker if they don't come up with a decent compromise solution that benefits both on trade. Unlike most, I think it is the EU that will suffer more if it takes a hardline route, because it is a lot weaker internally.
  • Posts: 4,617
    I think the issue is that the establishment either don't want us to leave or are very scared of the consequences (plus, of course, Cameron did no advanced planning) so there is no real urgency within the corridors of power. The whole "soft v hard" debate is a side issue and, again, a debate being had withn the corridors of power. Out is out. Its a very simple concept and not something really to be debated. The quicker we can get this done, the quicker we can move on. We are in danger of the delay and negotiations becoming the real issue rather than the fact we are leaving.
  • Posts: 11,425
    patb wrote: »
    I think the issue is that the establishment either don't want us to leave or are very scared of the consequences (plus, of course, Cameron did no advanced planning) so there is no real urgency within the corridors of power. The whole "soft v hard" debate is a side issue and, again, a debate being had withn the corridors of power. Out is out. Its a very simple concept and not something really to be debated. The quicker we can get this done, the quicker we can move on. We are in danger of the delay and negotiations becoming the real issue rather than the fact we are leaving.

    There will be no leaving in the sense you imagine it. This will drag on for decades. The ramifications will drag on endlessly, probably for as long as most of us are alive.

    The process of leaving will drain energy and resources from British business and hamstring the civil service for years.

    And once we are 'out' we will realise the sheer size and importance of the EU requires us to be closely involved with it still any way. We live in a complex interconnected world, not the 8th century.

    'Leaving' was and is a little islander fantasy. Where are we leaving to exactly?
  • Posts: 4,617
    Its not the sense that I imagined it, its the sense that 52% voted for, the ballot paper said leave, that was not an imaginary thing, it really said that in black and white on the paper, so its a fair assumption. Ramifications drag on, of course, as they do for all things in our history, but they exist after we leave.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Wrong, look at Switzerland. We voted no to join the EWR in 1992 and since then with every year passing it became clearer and clearer it was the best decision the Swiss ever made. We would rather get annexed by Russia than join the EU.

    The EU is bluffing big time, they need the UK economically like they need us. We are in bilateral talks constantly and work together. The same will work and happen for the UK.
    It's delusional to think the EU can "eliminate" the UK from economic ties to it.
  • Posts: 4,617
    The whole "in" campaign was based on fear and they still lost..but they still attempt to use fear..
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Fear and Lies, and they are still at it.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,425
    patb wrote: »
    Its not the sense that I imagined it, its the sense that 52% voted for, the ballot paper said leave, that was not an imaginary thing, it really said that in black and white on the paper, so its a fair assumption. Ramifications drag on, of course, as they do for all things in our history, but they exist after we leave.

    Yes, another piece of paper with a lot of soon to be disappointed expectations riding on it.

    History tells us not too put much faith in bits of paper.

    The fact remains that no one had the slightest idea and still has no idea where this will take us.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,425
    Wrong, look at Switzerland. We voted no to join the EWR in 1992 and since then with every year passing it became clearer and clearer it was the best decision the Swiss ever made. We would rather get annexed by Russia than join the EU.

    The EU is bluffing big time, they need the UK economically like they need us. We are in bilateral talks constantly and work together. The same will work and happen for the UK.
    It's delusional to think the EU can "eliminate" the UK from economic ties to it.

    But I don't think the Swiss relationship with the EU is what a lot of Leavers in the UK want. They seem to imagine a total dislocation from the EU is possible.

    If the UK ends up with a Swiss style deal (free movement) most people who voted Leave will be very disappointed.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/22/switzerland-votes-for-compromise-to-preserve-relations-with-eu?client=safari
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Our vote in 2014 has nothing to do with economic ties to the EU. It's merely about putting a limit to immigration.

    And yes, our parliament is still looking how it can be done.

    The UK will be out of the EU and have bilateral treaties with the EU like we have with them.
    It's no big deal.

    But the EU autocrats, especially Juncker and his cohorts think they can play the bully on the playground and make the UK shiver in fear.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,425
    Our vote in 2014 has nothing to do with economic ties to the EU. It's merely about putting a limit to immigration.

    And yes, our parliament is still looking how it can be done.

    The UK will be out of the EU and have bilateral treaties with the EU like we have with them.
    It's no big deal.

    But the EU autocrats, especially Juncker and his cohorts think they can play the bully on the playground and make the UK shiver in fear.

    Frankly, the EU holds most of cards. It's not really about fear or facing each other down. It's that the UK has a huge amount to lose, and the EU probably less so. The EU makes up about half our trade. The UK makes up a fraction of the EU's trade. Simple balance of power means the EU is in a stronger position to play hard ball.

    Add in the fact that the UK has no trade negotiators and you begin see what a dire situation we are in.

    Lions led by donkeys has never seemed more apt than it does to the UK right now.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I can't agree. Both will lose big time, if the EU plays hardball. But in the long run, Britain will cope, but the EU will lose more members because the voting people will drift further right to protectionist leaders.

    The only chance of survival for the EU in its current form is to find a fair deal with the UK.
    They want not to be a member of the EU. It's nothing special, it's just the first time a member wants to leave.
    Look at the map. Do you see that there are far more countries in Europe than just the members of the EU. Do the economic ties work with them. Of course they do. And they can as well for the UK....IF the little cross children in Brussels will finally accept the vote and act reasonably.
  • Posts: 11,425
    A rump EU stripped of bothersome outliers would be highly successful.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Getafix wrote: »
    A rump EU stripped of bothersome outliers would be highly successful.

    I agree on that actually. The EU should reform. Build a core membership with an EURO currency. Put all the others in a secondary EU so to speak, with own currencies. The security politics can still remain the same for the whole EU.

    Stop trying to turn Europe into a United States Of Europe, it's never going to happen.

    The EURO was the capital mistake. And some 6 years ago the Greek should have been exited from the EURO, and probably some others too. But it's all about saving the financial elite, and still, as can be seen now in Italy, where again, financial institutes get saved with billions, payed by the taxpayer of course.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    A rump EU stripped of bothersome outliers would be highly successful.

    I agree on that actually. The EU should reform. Build a core membership with an EURO currency. Put all the others in a secondary EU so to speak, with own currencies. The security politics can still remain the same for the whole EU.

    Stop trying to turn Europe into a United States Of Europe, it's never going to happen.

    The EURO was the capital mistake. And some 6 years ago the Greek should have been exited from the EURO, and probably some others too. But it's all about saving the financial elite, and still, as can be seen now in Italy, where again, financial institutes get saved with billions, payed by the taxpayer of course.
    I agree. The EU has always been about containing Germany and maintaining the relevance of 'old' and 'aging' Europe in the face of increasing global competitive threats (not only from China and India, but also from the Russian Federation). Germany has profited from the EU, as the EURO is a much weaker currency than the formidable DM would have been at this stage.

    The two tier approach is one solution, but they won't take it because it would make certain countries feel left out. Moreover, it would be difficult to adhere to, because countries like Spain and Italy would likely fail to meet economic and fiscal criteria that new members could attain. Additionally, it would be difficult to 'control' and the EU is all about control

    This 'experiment' is doomed to failure in its current state. It should have remained as a trade union with floating currencies. Even the previous ERM wasn't tenable, as Britain found out courtesy of George Soros.

    I personally see the EU as it currently stands as one of the great world threats, because the leadership is backed into a corner and will do what it has to in order to retain power, influence and the status quo.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    The EU is a magical wonderland, everyone is happy, healthy and all wealthy. The streets
    Are paved with gold with a new BMW in every garage.
    I'm a Remain voter ...... And I approved this message ;)
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    @Getafix

    For the third time I post the following question:

    May I ask if you actively campaigned during the referendum? Did you get out and about to speak to people about their reasons for wishing to leave or remain in the EU? Explain fully please the correlation between your campaigning experience and your notion that the people were somehow brainwashed as personally I'd be most interested to read it.

    I hope it gets answered this time - third time lucky and all that. Thank you.
  • Posts: 11,425
    stag wrote: »
    @Getafix

    For the third time I post the following question:

    May I ask if you actively campaigned during the referendum? Did you get out and about to speak to people about their reasons for wishing to leave or remain in the EU? Explain fully please the correlation between your campaigning experience and your notion that the people were somehow brainwashed as personally I'd be most interested to read it.

    I hope it gets answered this time - third time lucky and all that. Thank you.

    I was living overseas at the time of the referendum and did not campaign on the streets.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Getafix wrote: »
    stag wrote: »
    @Getafix

    For the third time I post the following question:

    May I ask if you actively campaigned during the referendum? Did you get out and about to speak to people about their reasons for wishing to leave or remain in the EU? Explain fully please the correlation between your campaigning experience and your notion that the people were somehow brainwashed as personally I'd be most interested to read it.

    I hope it gets answered this time - third time lucky and all that. Thank you.

    I was living overseas at the time of the referendum and did not campaign on the streets.

    Thank you for that.

    I think I have already pointed out that I was active in the 'leave' campaign and as a result did speak to many people. There were a myriad of reasons why they were going to vote in or out but - in my personal experience - it definitely wasn't as black or white as most people attempt to portray.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Even today the Bank of England had to make a statement that productivity had NOT
    Been affected by the Brexit vote. His is in sharp contrast to all the "Fear" stories the
    Same Bank was issuing before the vote .
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