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The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    As for all these countries joing up or getting married, why can't we just be friends
    with benifits ? ;)
  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    Posts: 389
    I'm voting OUT, here's why, forget all the hyperbole, most of the assumptions both sides are quoting, worst or best case scenarios depending on which way they wish to influence the voter are being labelled as facts. As I see it there is no black & white to this it's grey, no one knows what will happen short or long term with either option as nothing like this has happened before. However if you believe, like I do in small accountable democratic governance being better than big or in the case of the EU huge behemoth of undemocratic dictatorship, then you most vote for OUT.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    As I said earlier, I firmly believe the UK is better out. It will be better for UK competitiveness in the long run and for its global standing, because it will be more readily able to define itself uniquely in my view, which is somewhere the UK can 'play' on the world stage due to its history and strategic importance.

    In the short term however, there is likely to be some turmoil, but it will get worked out.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    IN.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I also don't think that the US of Europe is necessary as another big block that is globally influential. One argument often mentioned in this context is that the US of Europe would speak with one voice. But they can do so already now, and if they don't this is because there have different opinions on a respective topic. So the US od Europe would always be very fragile as long as there are different attitudes and opinions.
    I also don't think that size is very important for global influence. Already now some European countries like Germany, France and the UK are among the 10 biggest economies in the world. They have much influence in many countries all around the world. France, UK, Portugal and Spain and to some degree Belgium and the Netherlands have still historic ties towards their former colonies.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Britain stopped being great ages ago, it's a myth we are just Britain.

    We are a jumped little island that used to be much more because we conquered other countries we've had to relinquish, we hide behind America and try to act tough but those days are long gone.

    Unfortunately very true.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    So much pessimism, I for one still think Britain is Great ! =D>
    Fifth biggest economy in the world and one of the biggest contributors
    To the EU.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Cultural powerhouse too. Not to be underestimated imho.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    So much pessimism, I for one still think Britain is Great ! =D>
    Fifth biggest economy in the world and one of the biggest contributors
    To the EU.

    I too am proud to be English/ British. But we do require America to protect us and economically we are stronger by being part of the EU. We shouldn't have given up so much of the British Empire as some of these now independent countries were better off with us.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I agree about the Empire @Suavejmf but I think we still punch above our weight
    In the world. ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    The remnants of the Empire still exist, among its prior subject's citizens. There are residents and citizens of many countries (including business people) who would rather do business with and invest in the UK than other European countries due to the long historical ties. To some extent it's cultural too, because of the Empire's previous reach, including into language, education & the rule of law in the other countries.

    It's intangible. In an increasingly polarized world, there is space for an independent arbiter. A voice of reason. That is a space that the UK can occupy, if it chooses to and plays its cards right. There can be no more Iraq wars and poodle idiots like Blair if that is to become reality however.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Certainly, we still punch above our weight in the world, which is great. But it is still linked to having 'the right friends', our famous history/ tradition and the economic powerhouse of London. So I'm still 'in'.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    :D We'll all find out soon enough.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I'm a little worried.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Forever the optimist, I think Britain will be OK, no matter which way the vote goes. :)
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    GBF wrote: »
    Well there is still a difference. It is in fact a big difference whether you have an internal market with equal standards or a free trade arrangement on a specific good for instance. And btw you see how complex it is to form such kind of an agreement when you look at the TTIP negotiations. On the contrary, the formation of an internal market requires a certain degree of bureaucracy since you have to agree on specific product standards and market rules. However, the majority of people are not affected by this kind of bureaucracy anyway. And what about the national bureaucracy? Nobody complains about that. Consider a business man who wants to sell his products to the other EU countries. If there was no EU market rules he had to be aware of 27 different market laws in order to sell his goods. This is an extrem export barrier. So even when the UK leaves the EU, the business men will stick to the "bureaucratic EU market rules". Otherwise they won't sell any products there.

    And apart from that, what do you mean with "the bureaucratic monster"? Where are you personally affected by this monster? Have you ever heard of where the EU has competences of policy making at all? Do you know that not all kind of politics are made in Brussels? Do you know how all member states are involved in the policy process, both, in the parliament and in the Council of ministers? Can you tell me any European legislation that heavily went against the British advantage?

    I honestly don't really care if the Britains want to leave or not but I agree that it is a scape goat debate. I only wonder who will be the next to blame when the UK will finally have left the EU and the EU cannot be the scape goat anymore.
    Sorry, but the facts speak against your statement. Far before there were any trade agreements the Dutch were trading all over the world, as were the Brits when it comes to that. It isn't bad having 27 rulebooks, actually, it even creates jobs. I used to work for a company that would export to all African and South American nations. None of them we hade trade agreements with. A friend of mine exports to Brazil. Again, no trade agreement. Still, he makes a decent amount of money. The only ones actually profitting from trade agreements are huge companies that can outplay local producers. That isn't good for the economy, it's actually bad.

    For starters, our VAT went up from 19% to 21% to pay our EU contributions. Remember those billions going to Greece? Want to know where that many went to? Basicvally, we're paying extra taxes to keep a bankrupt country running. The money itself goes straight to the banks who lend the money to Greece, so they can lend Greece more money.

    We don't complain (actually, we do!) about our bureaucracy at home is becouse it also regulates the country. Now, we have un-elected civil servants coming up with new rules overruling the ones we have in place. So, next to the milk-quality rules we already had, we have EU regulations too. And they go a lot farther then the ones we had.

    Goes for Britain as well, this protective rulemaking isn't helping the European economy, it's destroying it:
    http://www.thememo.com/2016/03/15/designer-furniture-copyright-arne-jacobsen/

    For my own country, the Netherlands? One of the biggest problems our agreculture faces is milk quota's. Even though the Chinese are aching for European powdered milk, the Dutch are limited to the amount they can export because other countries with far less efficient production capabilities should deliver the same amount, according to the EU.

    Well I could go on and on, but I guess you've got the gist of it. I'm not against Europe, I'm against theunidentifiable way it's run now. It's utterly un-democratic. Do I know a few Dutch members of the European Parliament? I do. Those are the only ones we can vote for. Pity they can't come up with legislature or have a definite say in what rules are implemented. It's an utterly powerless parlement. Lovely for the show, which no-one watches.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,617
    I dont see what is so great about punching above our weight?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Well then you become Greece. ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Influence is an important requirement in a world dominated by China, The US and The EU (in that order), with India, Russia & Iran also as players.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    The sun never sets on the British Empire.
  • patbpatb
    edited June 2016 Posts: 4,617
    We are a little delusional about our role within the future World and have not got to grips with the fact that we have been in decline for many decades and this trend will continue (in or out), Cameron yesterday during the ITV Q and A made several references to our motor industry. Our motor industry is tiny, almost extinct, what he actually means is foreign firms building cars here. But we dont want to think about that fact that other countries actually build cars and collect all of the profit. This is reflected in so many other industries (aerospace another example), our status on the global stage is very much linked to what we have done and where we have been compared to what we are doing and where we are. We still cling to industries where other countries clearly have better capacity (steel is the most recent example). We are also tied to the iconography and tradition of the past and this can be seen all over the place, from the all White's of Wimbledon (the only location on the ATP tour where men have to pretend they are playing in the 1930s) to the State opening of Parliament (Black Rod! for goodness sake). We love celebrating the past and don' really know what Great Britain will look like in 50 years.
    IMHO leaving the EU will ensure a debate about what kind of country we want to be on our own terms rather than just tagging along with the titanic that is the EU.
    I think we need to be smaller, humbler, leaner and specialise in niche markets. China, South America, India etc have us beat in mainstream industry. We need to think smarter but I cant see it happening. Finally, I dont mean her harm, but when the Queen passes away, it will be a massive cultural change for GB. She links us to a time when we truly were World beaters and her passing will be another opportunity for us to realise that our reign is over, we have had a good innings and we need to retire gracefully from the World stage. Its time to punch our weight.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    We love celebrating the past and don' really know what Great Britain will look like in 50 years.
    IMHO leaving the EU will ensure a debate about what kind of country we want to be on our own terms rather than just tagging along with the titanic that is the EU.
    I think we need to be smaller, humbler, leaner and specialise in niche markets. China, South America, India etc have us beat in mainstream industry. We need to think smarter but I cant see it happening. Finally, I dont mean her harm, but when the Queen passes away, it will be a massive cultural change for GB. She links us to a time when we truly were World beaters and her passing will be another opportunity for us to realise that our reign is over, we have had a good innings and we need to retire gracefully from the World stage. Its time to punch our weight.
    Precisely. I agree completely, and that is why I am a proponent for leaving. It is up to Britain to decide what kind of nation it will be and this decision will help to put clarity on that. I see far more intelligence and forward thinking in the UK than I do in the US (to date) for example. The execution has arguably been poor, but there is an attempt at least to forge a new path, and that is encouraging. It will be messy in the interim, but it is ultimately necessary to reenvision the future.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    The sun never sets on the British Empire.

    Because your British 'sun' already went supernova and swallowed the entire Empire like it's merely one tiny rotten cherry. :)
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Sorry but there is no milk quota anymore. The EU abandonened it last year since they wanted to increase the exports to countries like Russia and China. However, due to the global crisis and the Russia's import stop for European food products, there is an over supply in Europe that leads to extremely low prices. In Germany, the milf farmers more and more give up their business. But this has nothing to do with milk quota but with the sinking milk price.

    And what about the bureaucrats's argument? The EU legislation process works not that different from the national legislative procedure. Ok it is a bit more complicated but that does not mean it is less democratic. Each EU legislation is proposed by the Commission which consists of 28 commissioners (one from each countries). The commission can only make a proposal, they have however no real legislative power. This is in the hands of the EU Parliament and the Council of ministers. The EU parliament is elected by the people from all member states (OK small countries are a bit advanced here but still the MdEP are elcted democratically). The Council of ministers consists of the repective ministers of each countries (so each democtratically elected government is involved here, and there can never be a legislation against the majority of EU citizens, nor against the majority of EU countries).

    And what at all is a bureaucrat? Besides the elected politicans you of course have thousands of people who work on all specific topics in the several Directorate-Generals. They are comparable to the employees in the ministrys of the Member States. They are experts on specific topics. Again they usually come from all parts of the EU and they have no legislative power but support the commissioners.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    GBF wrote: »
    Sorry but there is no milk quota anymore. The EU abandonened it last year since they wanted to increase the exports to countries like Russia and China. However, due to the global crisis and the Russia's import stop for European food products, there is an over supply in Europe that leads to extremely low prices. In Germany, the milf farmers more and more give up their business. But this has nothing to do with milk quota but with the sinking milk price.

    And what about the bureaucrats's argument? The EU legislation process works not that different from the national legislative procedure. Ok it is a bit more complicated but that does not mean it is less democratic. Each EU legislation is proposed by the Commission which consists of 28 commissioners (one from each countries). The commission can only make a proposal, they have however no real legislative power. This is in the hands of the EU Parliament and the Council of ministers. The EU parliament is elected by the people from all member states (OK small countries are a bit advanced here but still the MdEP are elcted democratically). The Council of ministers consists of the repective ministers of each countries (so each democtratically elected government is involved here, and there can never be a legislation against the majority of EU citizens, nor against the majority of EU countries).

    And what at all is a bureaucrat? Besides the elected politicans you of course have thousands of people who work on all specific topics in the several Directorate-Generals. They are comparable to the employees in the ministrys of the Member States. They are experts on specific topics. Again they usually come from all parts of the EU and they have no legislative power but support the commissioners.

    :x
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    In or out ? Doesn't matter the rich will get richer and the poor will still get poorer.
    If voting changed anything, we wouldn't be allowed to do it. As Before I predict
    The vote will be to stay In the EU. Too many wealthy people have too much to
    Lose, so I'd say plenty of "Remain" votes will be "found" to make sure things go
    The way, they wanted ;)
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Cynical or realistic? ;)
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    :)) Bit of both. :(
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,016
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    A US of Europe is seriously one of the worst outcomes. How anyone can be in favour of that is beyond me.

    I think it really should be the idealism of humanity really. Just watch Star Trek, how weird that example may sound. I would love to give up my Dutch passport for a United States Of Europe passport.

    In a few hundred years, this will be the inevitable outcome: Humanity being more organized into one big United Federation Of Earth. And if that may sound weird? Several centuries ago there WAS no Netherlands. Around 1200 AD the plains that are now called Netherlands were fully occupied by the Batavia, poor nomads whose only means of surviving were fishing and hunting. Netherlands was one big disorganized mudpool. Nothing more.

    Now it is 2016. Netherlands is at least for now a prosperous nation. But I call upon all Dutchies: Time to slowly dissolve and become part of a better organized, more peaceful and more democratic unity: The United States Of Europe. It would be my ultimate dream, and it would be the best counterweight to other insanely large landmasses, like China, USA and Russia.

    Because make no mistake. The era of small nations is over. Everyone who thinks his small European nation can survive and still bring about prosperity and welfare in the long-term, is a fool. If the USA doesn't dictate policies in Europe, it will be China or Russia. But NOT the UK or Netherlands.

    Wake up. Think of the true idealism of mankind: The United States Of Europe!

    Sounds like a friggin' nightmare!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    The issue is more sovereignty than bureaucracy imho, although the two go hand in hand.

    Having an elected bureaucrat in your country making decisions with your country's interests solely at heart is more sellable & preferable to the public than having one from a faceless centre that has a larger mandate. This is why even in the US, there is a school of thought that States should decide on several matters pertinent to them including education etc.
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