The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »
    I have read in many threads that the EU has given us peace but, when I request causal evidence, I have received nothing. Not a jot. It's wish thinking.

    That's because you never experienced World War II.

    How old are you exactly? Because in that profile pic you don't look 71 which is the absolute minimum you would need to be to have been a new born baby in 1945.

    By the time the EU got into its stride the Cold War was pretty much over and as someone who did live through that particular conflict I can attest to the fact that Europe was just the battleground where it was fought with the frontline being Berlin. European countries didn't stop a Third World War. Common sense prevailing in Washington and Moscow did.

    You might as well say Belgium was responsible for winning WW1 and WW2 because that was where the battles were fought.
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    Come come Belgium was created so that the British and the Germans had somewhere to fight or so some people would have us believe .
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Does Belgium exist ? I thought it was like Narnia or Alaska.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 389
    Does anyone think it's quite ironic that Belgium home of the EU was the butt of Jokes told by the rest of europe in the same way we in England told jokes about the Irish?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited June 2016 Posts: 45,489
    Does anyone think it's quite ironic that Belgium home of the EU was the butt of Jokes told by the rest of europe in the same way we in England told jokes about the Irish?

    We Norwegians tell jokes abut the Swedes. Other examples? Do our hottentot members tell jokes abot the pygmes for example? I know the Swiss tell jokes about those daft Austrians.
  • Posts: 4,617
    The last week has been very interesting, there has been some kind of shift in the momentum, the inners are now openly in fear of an out vote and lots of arguing within Labour camp. If there is an out vote, Corbyn's role will be looked at as crucial. His token effort has been remarkable. Two months ago, I was considering a big bet on the inners as it was a done deal but now, its much closer. The inners seem to have run out of energy and the scare tactics that they used 2 months ago have lost their impact. Its just possible the we are on the verge of something very historic...just possible.
    PS still waiting for any causal evidence re EU bringing peace
    PPS James Dyson has gone on the record today saying trade if we come out will not be an issue (in the Telegraph).
  • Posts: 11,119
    patb wrote: »
    The last week has been very interesting, there has been some kind of shift in the momentum, the inners are now openly in fear of an out vote and lots of arguing within Labour camp. If there is an out vote, Corbyn's role will be looked at as crucial. His token effort has been remarkable. Two months ago, I was considering a big bet on the inners as it was a done deal but now, its much closer. The inners seem to have run out of energy and the scare tactics that they used 2 months ago have lost their impact. Its just possible the we are on the verge of something very historic...just possible.
    PS still waiting for any causal evidence re EU bringing peace
    PPS James Dyson has gone on the record today saying trade if we come out will not be an issue (in the Telegraph).

    Sadly, all you are saying is reflecting in the polls:
    JFglGq3.jpg

    Compared to the Scotland Independence Referendum two years ago, the chance that a country 'leaves' from a unity this time is much bigger.

    Do not forget that The Netherlands is fearing a #Brexit too, as written in this article:
    http://www.nu.nl/brexit/4274958/brexit-kost-nederland-10-miljard-volgens-cpb.html

    Netherlands is a relatively big trade partner of the UK. And the CPB (Dutch Government Statistics Bureau) is calculating that a Brexit will cost The Netherlands until 2013 €10 Billion.
  • Posts: 11,425
    there seems to be no good reason to leave really.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    there seems to be no good reason to leave really.

    Like I said many times. We have a saying in Holland. "Van een koude kermis thuiskomen" :-(. But I'm starting to get afraid. The "Leave"-vote in a way seems to be less fearless, and at least more positive....how weird that may sound, as the actual outcome later on will prove very negative. But that's the situation. In The Netherlands we are bracing ourselves....here in Barcelona, Catalunya too.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 4,617
    I think people should make up there own minds but I did find this interesting. My gut reaction (and its just gut, nothing else) is that Dyson is one clever chap, he is accountable directly to his claims, is not seeking political power and is under no obligation to state an opinion. He has also included some solid evidence within the article. Unlike the faceless "experts" in the Treasury who have not proved themselves in the real World of import/export and will collect their index linked pensions no matter how accurate their predictions, Dyson's firm will be in the epicentre of the Whirlwind caused by exit.
    Self made men like Dyson have the ability to think "out of the box" and look at the facts coldly rather than run with the pack.
    And he clearly thinks that the scare tactics are "cobblers".
    I know that inners will pull his opinions to pieces and thats OK but for those who are undecided, IMHO , this guy deserves to be heard and his opinions considered.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sir-james-dyson-so-if-we-leave-the-eu-no-one-will-trade-with-us/
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    there seems to be no good reason to leave really.

    So where is the good reason to stay?

    This seems to be a lot of people's attitude - 'well they haven't really made the case to leave so I'll vote stay.'

    This is the wrong approach IMO. The question you should be asking is 'if we weren't in the EU, would we be clamouring to join it now?'

  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    edited June 2016 Posts: 308
    Do not forget that The Netherlands is fearing a #Brexit too, as written in this article:
    http://www.nu.nl/brexit/4274958/brexit-kost-nederland-10-miljard-volgens-cpb.html

    Netherlands is a relatively big trade partner of the UK. And the CPB (Dutch Government Statistics Bureau) is calculating that a Brexit will cost The Netherlands until 2013 €10 Billion.
    In The Netherlands we are bracing ourselves....here in Barcelona, Catalunya too.

    The Netherlands as a whole are not fearing a Brexit. I am certainly not.

    There was a recent survey from a Dutch newspaper ("De Telegraaf" / "The Telegraph") where 80% are in favor of a Brexit and 88% want a referendum about The Netherlands leaving the EU.
    http://www.telegraaf.nl/watuzegt/25920298/__Britten_moeten_in_EU_blijven__.html

    Now I am not claiming that this represents the whole of NL, but it certainly shows you can't claim that "we, The Netherlands" are fearing a Brexit or bracing for it.

    And regarding the 10 billion cost (1,2 % of our total gross domestic product) of a Brexit: that would mean that until 2030 no trade deal would have been made which I find unbelievable.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    @Getafix I think Dayson comes up with quite a few decent arguments, and he certainly knows what he's talking about. See @patb 's link.

    nice quote too:
    “If only!” He laughs. “At least they have voting at Eurovision. These sessions are dominated by very large companies who agree on their approach before the meeting and so vote together as a bloc. And that’s why we never get anywhere. We think that’s anti-competitive practice and we would love to prove it but…” he gives a helpless shrug.

    Personally, I'd prefer it if the French left though, I think things would run a lot smoother then, but I don't think that's ever going to happen...
  • Posts: 11,119
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    Do not forget that The Netherlands is fearing a #Brexit too, as written in this article:
    http://www.nu.nl/brexit/4274958/brexit-kost-nederland-10-miljard-volgens-cpb.html

    Netherlands is a relatively big trade partner of the UK. And the CPB (Dutch Government Statistics Bureau) is calculating that a Brexit will cost The Netherlands until 2013 €10 Billion.
    In The Netherlands we are bracing ourselves....here in Barcelona, Catalunya too.

    The Netherlands as a whole are not fearing a Brexit. I am certainly not.

    There was a recent survey from a Dutch newspaper ("De Telegraaf" / "The Telegraph") where 80% are in favor of a Brexit and 88% want a referendum about The Netherlands leaving the EU.
    http://www.telegraaf.nl/watuzegt/25920298/__Britten_moeten_in_EU_blijven__.html

    Now I am not claiming that this represents the whole of NL, but it certainly shows you can't claim that "we, The Netherlands" are fearing a Brexit or bracing for it.

    And regarding the 10 billion cost (1,2 % of our total gross domestic product) of a Brexit: that would mean that until 2030 no trade deal would have been made which I find unbelievable.


    "De Telegraaf" is the English equivalent of trash tabloid "The Sun". It's also the American equivalent of trash tabloid "New York Post". I understand you use polls from such biased right-wing press, but the fact is that independent polling institutes like NIPO, TNS and Ipsos give you a clearer and more neutral picture.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Personally, I'd prefer it if the French left though, I think things would run a lot smoother then, but I don't think that's ever going to happen...

    Count me in on that one.

    Trains on strike, bins on strike, air traffic control about to go on strike.

    The 3rd biggest sporting event in the world has just started but no one particularly interested in sorting this mess out. Hollande is wetter than Cameron. No wonder Merkel does what she wants with no one to keep her in check.

    In Marseille tonight after the match the buses will have stopped running. They are generously extending the tube to 2am but with a frequency of one every 4 mins to cope with 70k fans I think I'll just walk back to the car rather than stand on the platform for hours. And the tube drivers will probably strike this afternoon so the tube won't even turn up post match.

    The contrast between how well run Germany 06 was is pretty stark.

    How about the UK votes leave and then sets up a splinter trading block with Netherlands who also vote out. Get Sweden and Denmark in as well and then in a few years when our new block is punching above it's weight against the ailing EU pop the big question and get Germany in. Then close membership. Sorted.
  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    Posts: 308
    How about the UK votes leave and then sets up a splinter trading block with Netherlands who also vote out. Get Sweden and Denmark in as well and then in a few years when our new block is punching above it's weight against the ailing EU pop the big question and get Germany in. Then close membership. Sorted.

    That would be fantastic.

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    More importantly, will this affect us in the Eurovision Song contest ? :(
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    How about the UK votes leave and then sets up a splinter trading block with Netherlands who also vote out. Get Sweden and Denmark in as well and then in a few years when our new block is punching above it's weight against the ailing EU pop the big question and get Germany in. Then close membership. Sorted.

    Don't count on it. The Netherlands at the moment is leading an initiative to build the biggest windmill park ever in human history. The preferred location for that is the Doggersbank in the Northsea. Secretary of Economic Affairs of The Netherlands is leading the initiative and it will include the "Northsea 10" (The 3 Benelux countries -Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg-, France, Belgium, Ireland, Germany, Denmark, Norway & Sweden).
    2016-06-10-12-28-12.Eiland%20op%20de%20Doggersbank.jpg
    The purpose of it? To make the actual creation of such a massive windmill park more cheaper. By shared purchasing and development of windmill facilities, building the world's largest windmill park becomes cheaper.

    Secretary of Economic Affairs, Henk Kamp had this to say: "We really have to get rid of our dependence on fossil energy, like oil and gas. We already see the difficulty of drilling for gas in The Netherlands is already pressing heavily on the Dutch economy. And the way Russia and Venezuela deal with the low oil prices makes us worried. So expect a future in which the North Sea will be entirely flooded with wind mills."
    330px-North_sea_eez.PNG
    Two days ago Dutch energy utilities company TenneT, who is working together with the Dutch government and the European Union on this, already suggested to facilitate such a windmill park by creating a so called "power point island".

    This needs to be coordinated at European level, of interlinked offshore interconnectors, i.e. a so-called interconnection hub, combined with large-scale wind power. Any surplus wind power could be converted into other forms of energy, or stored. Situating this interconnection hub on a modularly constructed island in a relatively shallow part of the North Sea would result in significant cost savings.



    The big thing is this: The United Kingdom wasn't included in these talks. Simply put, because at this stage it's too risky to include the UK in this huge, massive energy proposal, as long as there's a good possibility that Brexit will happen. And secondly, the UK doesn't want to be included themselves. Apparently, they do not share the idea of cost savings.

    I find it a pity. Why is the UK behaving like this? I call this a perfect example of how countries are working together, even with help of supranational institutions like the EU and big energy companies like TenneT. And the long-term effects? Energy independence, and better prospects for long-term prosperity and welfare, as we stop relying on oil and gas.

    The above is a clear example on how we can make our economies more resilient on long-term negative effects like the depletion of oil and gas. Thus it's inevitable that internationalism is the key to our future.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    And yet Norway is part of it.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited June 2016 Posts: 4,043
    On the subject of Dyson, pity his product is rubbish now, we have just commisioned our 3rd dyson to the garage, our first lasted 6-7 years before it needed replacing but the last 2 have had 2 -3 years at the most.

    Dyson has just replaced Hoover now as the make everyone thinks of when it comes to vacuum cleaners, not particularly well built but mass marketed and seen as the industry leader.

    We weren't falling for it again, I recommend a Shark so much better, Dyson are so much more poorly made but that is about par the course for most things in this disposable world we live in.

    I'm voting in personally, listening to that caricature bumbling Boris makes my head hurt and Farage's utter bollocks and patronising, his say on TV earlier in the week was insulting and misleading.

    Whenever Boris comes up on Have I Got News For You these days I see the bemused look on Merton & Hislop, they must wonder what happened, this guy was a laughing stock once a side show joke on this program, what did we do? First London Mayor and now aspirations of more ambition, where will it end?

    Reminds me of an episode of Charlie Brooker's rather brilliant Black Mirror where a a foul mouthed cartoon character with questionable morales ( a man in a suit ) become so popular with the general public that he becomes elected as the next Prime Minister and ruling Government, then they show the future that ensues at the end.

    Brooker a student of that other brilliant British satarist Chris Morris (Four Lions) who was prophetic with the brilliant Day Today and Brass Eye, you just need to look at Sky News or Jeremy Kyle to see that CM was pretty on the nose. The infamous paedophile special they did on Brass Eye to see that their take on it might have caused rafts of complaints in the tabloids and horrified middle Britain back then but seeing the way the media portrays it now it feels like a documenatry.

    I worry that we might be giving power to our own supposed cuddly version of Drumpf, on a completely different planet to most of us, a life of privilledge that causes him to have no idea of real life, therefore totally unrelatable to average man in the street.

    Yes he's funny and a character but in a position of power doing a job that millions of people rely on, no thanks. Politics is far too full of people who have no idea of everyday life and it scares me to think who's next to rise to a position of power considering the horrible reality of Donald Trump at the moment.

    I see how many have been drawn under Donald's spell and can't seem to see this is utterly obscene, well that is what I think a good majority of the rest of the world thinks. Boris while nowhere as offensive is like Trump a million miles from the people he's trying to appeal to, time we had some real people in politics instead of these over privilledged idiots who are taking us all for a ride.

  • Posts: 11,119
    And yet Norway is part of it.

    And yet UK isn't. Even Norway in it doesn't make the UK think that at least on some aspects an international approach works.

  • Posts: 233
    I have an awful lot of problems with the EU, and a few weeks ago I wasn't sure how I was going to vote. For starters, it's in desperate need of further democratisation, and it intervenes in domestic economies all too eagerly.

    However, I've already sent off my postal vote for remain because I think that leaving the EU would be a huge step backwards. Above all it provides a framework for international cooperation, whether it's on the environment, security, trade, or war, and that's got to be a good thing.

    I also think that the EU provides an essential break on any national governments who would otherwise be happy to infringe on civil liberties. I have more faith in the EU to uphold workers rights, freedom of the press, and the right to a fair trial than I do the current Tory government.

    It's by no means perfect, and a lot more needs to be done to make people feel like the EU bureaucrats are listening to them (particularly on freedom of movement). This is why I think we need to be optimistic about a democratic, internationalist Europe, rather than retreating into ourselves and accepting whatever scraps the EU and US want to throw at us on our own. We British do best when we're at the lead of a united Europe, so let's shoot for that, eh?
  • Posts: 11,119
    I have an awful lot of problems with the EU, and a few weeks ago I wasn't sure how I was going to vote. For starters, it's in desperate need of further democratisation, and it intervenes in domestic economies all too eagerly.

    However, I've already sent off my postal vote for remain because I think that leaving the EU would be a huge step backwards. Above all it provides a framework for international cooperation, whether it's on the environment, security, trade, or war, and that's got to be a good thing.

    I also think that the EU provides an essential break on any national governments who would otherwise be happy to infringe on civil liberties. I have more faith in the EU to uphold workers rights, freedom of the press, and the right to a fair trial than I do the current Tory government.

    It's by no means perfect, and a lot more needs to be done to make people feel like the EU bureaucrats are listening to them (particularly on freedom of movement). This is why I think we need to be optimistic about a democratic, internationalist Europe, rather than retreating into ourselves and accepting whatever scraps the EU and US want to throw at us on our own. We British do best when we're at the lead of a united Europe, so let's shoot for that, eh?

    Bravo ^:)^
  • Posts: 7,653
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    How about the UK votes leave and then sets up a splinter trading block with Netherlands who also vote out. Get Sweden and Denmark in as well and then in a few years when our new block is punching above it's weight against the ailing EU pop the big question and get Germany in. Then close membership. Sorted.

    That would be fantastic.
    That would be daft I'd rather be in a Eu version with Germany than the Brits, even our past Gulden was matched to the German Mark and we had some of the strongest coins in the worlds due to that matter.

    I am against a referendum simply because it is never about the real matter like we had the Ukraine referendum which was basically people voting with any insight but largely it was about other matters and people treat it as if they won and it was only a bloody advisory referendum. Screw any referendum anytime soon.

    If the UK leaves fine with me, it will once again cost a lot of money and we all know who is going to foot that bill. Not the wealthy lot but the common workman/woman.

    As for bureaucrats they have been around for a long time and will be, they will continue to exist in any union of government. And they will always object to true transparency in earning and spending. They like lobbyists are essentially what is the bane of democracy.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    @Gustav I don't know why the Brits don't like the project, but it seems our own government doesn't know it's arse from it's elbow as the Doggersbank has just been sanctioned a protected nature reserve.
    http://www.nu.nl/politiek/4275901/doggersbank-definitief-aangewezen-als-beschermd-natuurgebied.html

    I'm all for projects like that though, but you don't need the EU for that. You can just work together as countries.

    @SaintMark that's a bold anti-democratic statement! I knew exactly why I voted in the Ukraine referendum, so speak for yourself on these matters will you?

    And you're wrong on bureaucrats as well. Yes we need some, but the Swiss have shown that you can be very democratic, very well run (like clockwork! ;-) ) and with transparency. The current EU is everything but. The EU has neglected signals that people in Europe are fed up with their schemes (the French referendum, 2 Dutch ones) and now pay the bill with the Brexit referendum . And this time it isn't the little man paying for it, it's the banks. Why do you think they react all panicing?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I wonder if any of the European countries, would want to join the UK. ;)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    No thanks.
  • Posts: 11,119
    After the Dutch-Anglo Wars from the 17th century, I suggest the other way around.

    By the way, the United Kingdom is 'United' no?
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    This is an interesting article from The Telegraph (business section):
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/11/uk-voters-back-norway-style-brexit-poll-reveals/
    But I'm afraid such an idea might be in vain. A Norway-style Brexit seems unrealistic. Why?

    Asked whether the UK could be granted a Norwegian or Swiss-style deal, Germany's finance minister told Der Spiegel the UK will not have access to the single market if it votes for Brexit on June 23:
    "That won't work. It would require the country to abide by the rules of a club from which it currently wants to withdraw. If the majority in Britain opts for Brexit, that would be a decision against the single market. In is in. Out is completely out. One has to respect the sovereignty of the British people.

    Constructions like those with Norway and Switzerland were made, when those countries saw the negative consequences of a single trade market when they were left out. So they were partially voting 'in'. But the current doctrine within the EU is different. We negotiated to death with the current UK government to change their EU-membership into one that already has a negative impact on the EU, whether it's part of the Remain option in the referendum or not.

    So now Brexit voters want to go partially 'in' again after a real Brexit and opt for a Norway-style trade deal? Again, In is in. Out is completely out. Please respect the consequences of democracy.
    "
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