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You are spot on with your assessment.
Biased is putting it mildly.
I have stopped participating in this sordid affair by FRWL I think.
PTS: SP (I would’ve given it to MR, but Jaws and the circus tent)
Title track: SP (Close, but MR’s is just – whisper it - boring)
Titles: SP
Main villain: MR (Drax is one my favs)
Main Bond Girl: SP (Those eyes man!)
Henchman: SP
Plot: SP
Dialogue: MR (Drax’s speech on the space station)
Score: MR (well, duh)
Settings: MR
Action: SP
Humour: SP (double taking pigeon)
Cinematography: MR (exquisite)
Benign Bizarre: MR (Jaws and his Rio carnival costume)
Suspense: MR (orbs and the death of Corinne)
Minor Characters: SP (Mr. White for the win. Although Manuela almost stole this)
Glamour: MR
Bond performance: SP (So very close. Sir Rog is a legend in MR)
SP - 10
MR – 8
Very close again, but SP just edges it. SP won 4 – 1 in the 70’s films. I expect the 80’s films will be closer even still.
My thoughts exactly. It's quite pathetic frankly - it's just a game - man I feel like I'm talking to four year olds.
Title track: SP - Yes it's Barry. Yes it's Bassey. But it's just extremely meh. Pleasant enough melody that works well elsewhere in the score but a Bond title song needs more bang for its buck. The opening bars of WOTW sound very Bondian even if the song peters out a bit.
Titles: SP - Solid with good (and bad - topless Dan) flourishes v rather tired stuff from Binder.
Main villain: Tie - Both good actors. Both in cruise control. Both do what the script asks of them.
Main Bond Girl: SP - Easy win here. Lea smashes Lois 'duller than An Evening With Rory Kinnear' Chiles out of the park both in terms of performance and spectacular jubblies.
Henchman: SP - Gave Jaws the nod last time but apart from the alley scene (pre dancing with the carnival goers) and the cable car fight (pre Dolly) everything he does here is shite. Hinx's entrance and final fight are superb - just a shame he does bugger all inbetween.
Plot: SP - Although I'm highly critical of SP's 'plot' I have to give it the edge over Gilbert recycling the same plot for a third time. Take out stepbrothergate and I can live with SP's plot, clumsily cobbled together though it is over Drax putting starting the whole thing off merely because one of his shuttles developed a fault. This is part of space travel. You'd like to think he have accounted for faults and had backups but no he'd rather blatantly hijack a shuttle.
Dialogue: SP- The Mr White scene enough to take this over fairly pedestrian MR.
Score: MR - Some of the stuff in space is Barry at his best. Seriously just give up Tom.
Settings: SP - Venice, Rio and Iguazo falls excellent 'California' (quick shot of LAX and then a few exteriors at a French chateau) and space less so. Mexico City, Rome, Austria and the crater all better, despite the yellow filter. Could've done without London again.
Action: SP - The MR PTS and Hinx fight the highlights. But after that? The Cha (or is it Chang?) fight is good but the two boat chases are merely OK. SP PTS, the car chase and plane sequence do enough to win this.
Humour: MR - The pigeon and hovercraft are low points but Rog at his peak difficult to top.
Cinematography: SP - Very nearly lost it for the piss stain filter but apart from the shots of the shuttles taking off there's nothing outstanding in MR.
Benign Bizarre: SP - Can't really think of much in MR apart from the dogs and anaconda so I'll give the nod to Blofeld's sockless head drilling.
Suspense: MR - The centrifuge scene and the final hunting down of the globes beats the suspense free finale of Q effortlessly hacking the villains scheme (This is a line that really annoys me in SP 'He'll find a way. He always does'. So that's OK then. No need to worry about Nine Eyes going online. What a thrilling climax).
Minor Characters: SP - Even if White wasn't excellent what minor characters are there in MR? Corrinne, Frederick Gray, Manuela, err Dolly? Colonel Scott? The gay hotel manager? Gagging for it Venini Glass receptionist?
Glamour: Tie - Love the Rome stuff but Rog strolling off Concorde in Rio and getting in a Rolls is pretty hard to top.
Bond performance: Tie - Both actors are now totally comfortable in the role and cruise classily through the film knowing the opposition don't stand a chance.
MR 4
SP 11
Tie 3
Where is the logic in that. Where's the challenge, where's the fun? What is the purpose?
Anyway I'm not here to "disrupt" the thread or be "childish". If a simple observation is not allowed anymore then something has gone terribly wrong.
PTS: SP
Title track: MR
Titles: SP
Main villain: MR
Main Bond Girl: MR
Henchman: MR
Plot: MR
Dialogue: MR
Score: MR
Settings: SP
Action: SP
Humour: MR
Cinematography: SP
Benign Bizarre: SP
Suspense: SP
Minor Characters: SP
Glamour: MR
Bond performance: SP
SP - 9
MR - 9
Just speaking for myself, I went through all the categories, and in all but one I fell on the side of MR. Some were pretty close, but I still went with MR. This is the problem with choosing one vs another in each category. It might have been better to score each category on a scale of 1-5. Then SP would have still lost (in my case) but would have come rather close in quite a few categories (such as cinematography, glamour, minor characters, henchman, & main Bond girl).
Title track: SP
Titles: SP
Main villain: SP
Main Bond Girl: SP
Henchman: SP
Plot: SP
Dialogue: MR
Score: MR
Settings: MR
Action: SP
Humour: MR
Cinematography: SP
Benign Bizarre: MR
Suspense: SP
Minor Characters: SP
Glamour: MR
Bond performance: SP
SP - 11
MR - 7
Vote how you feel, and don't let anyone dictate otherwise.
Just saying now, don't shoot the messenger!!
I read the books up to Colonel Sun before I ever saw a 007 movie and have read most of them and own them as well.
With the Craig era I feel losing my fandom quickly when it comes to the movies and with SP for the first time I felt no real urge to actually see the end of the movie it is a movie that is style over content, empty but full of artificial emotions, poorly and boring devised action scenes. It is the total opposite of Moonraker that delivers an action movie that dares to go dark at moments and is exciting at others. Without flaws heck no but they stand out less and are less upsetting for me.
SP stands for the 007 movie that makes me want to skip the next one if Craig returns with whomever he wants to work this time and writes what he likes to do.
SF & SP have actually managed to make me look at the Dalton years with kindness, those are like somebody called them the ädult 007 movies, which I think is just the one aspect they should tread gently as 007 is actually a grown up fantasy, a fantasy.
I find MR in all aspects a better movie than SP and I am not allowed by certain members to vote, I am sorry to have a mind of my own.
As for reading I found MR closer to the sometimes spectacular and OTT spy stories that Fleming told than SP is. It is a poorly devised story that is never really spectacular and devoid of any excitement that comes with a Fleming story. The rewriting of the Blofeld story showes a lack of total insight in making a 007 movie.
MR is nuts batty at times and OTT and looks beautifully shot, has some really tense moments some amazing stunts (no CGI) and shows how once upon a time EON put his budget on the screen with a great style. The worlds biggest explosion and most expensive carchase really were wasted amount of money where some smart director could really have created something.
MR a perfect film, heck no, but it is a fun movie that puts a smile on my face.
And to be honest I do not think that there is a movie that I like less than SP, but MR & FYEO, OP and the early Connery's, OHMSS and even the Dalton movies are simply better movies and were made on a better budget with more people involved that really cared about the franchise. Something I find missing and that really pisses me of, and SP is the most obvious symptom.
Pretty impressive Bond fan credentials there.
With that said...
PTS: Spectre This one is really close. Honestly, if not for the way Jaws ended the scene, this would be MR hands down for me.
Title Track: Moonraker I really like this number by Shirley, even more than DAF. Sam Smith is not far behind on this one, though.
Title Credits: Spectre Daniel Kleinman really impressed me with this one. I liked the song, but thought it would really drag the title down. I was wrong.
Main Villain: Spectre This one is pretty decisive. I think Waltz does an underrated Blofeld and I just think Drax is the epitome of dry, dime-a-dozen villain seeking a utopian society.
Main Bond Girl: Moonraker She is a really good match for Moore's Bond. I really wanted to say Swann, but honestly they rushed and forced her chemistry with Craig's Bond.
Henchman: Spectre Bautista is a beast. Maybe the best part of Spectre.
Overall Plot: Moonraker Crazy right? I think if you take out the laser tag battle and give some addition weight to the concept, it's actually really good. Spectre is bland and misguided here.
Dialogue: Moonraker It is ok to go full Moore and the script is not the main offender of Moonraker.
Score: Moonraker John Barry near the top of his game.
Settings: Moonraker I would like to see more of the Amazon in future installments. The way it was treated was particularly palatable as well.
Action: Spectre Some really great visceral scenes in Spectre.
Humor: Moonraker I really didn't find Spectre funny and would have preferred if they largely kept the tone from Skyfall. Spectre just felt inconsistent here.
Cinematography: Spectre This one is razor thin... I better not write too much lest I change my mind.
Benign Bizarre: Moonraker The gondola chase, Spectre can't match that! Let's ignore the laser tag battle altogether...
Suspense: Spectre Even being as predictable as Spectre was, it does hold the interest quite well until the final act, which is better than many others in the franchise can say.
Minor Characters: Spectre Moonraker doesn't have any performance of note in this category to my liking.
Glamour: Spectre It was oozing with classic Bond, even though it doesn't always deliver.
BOND PERFORMANCE: Spectre I hold it as Craig's most inconsistent, but he is still way more engaged than Moore (Sorry if this bothers all the long-timers. The guy can act, but I will say the script doesn't aid him well here making it close.)
Spectre: 10
Moonraker: 8
I don't know if I'll vote in any more, but this one I thought was an interesting contrast for some reason.
Alos everyone, QUIT TWISITNG YOUR PANTS INTO A KNOT WHEN SOMEONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION! :)
On the other hand, I see no reason to avoid talking about why one gave the score one did, and wondering what others saw to put one movie over another. I also think it's fair game to say if you think a rating is bizarre. I find putting MR in a clean sweep over SP to be thoroughly in poor taste, about the same as putting TWINE over GF or something. And so I shall say so. I won't accuse others of bias or of being blinded by hatred of SP or being idiots, but I don't understand how you can look at the categories and think "MR is better than SP in every conceivable way."
CSDP = Collective Spectre Derangement Psychosis. Jung would have a field day with this site.
Well, as much as I agree people are being too harsh on SP (and I don't even like it all that much!), I don't want to call them deranged, because then the insults start flying and the mods have to lock a perfectly good thread.
How about you submit your scores for this round?
MR 0
We all can play this insipid little game.
You would cry if you got a hangnail, you prissy little twit.
1. Swann had (has?) great potential as a Bond girl and her performance was noteworthy. However, the way her character was written affected the impact of her performance on me. She was a little bit better character development away from being another Vesper.
2. In terms of the categories as they relate to the final tallies, I don't think these qualities necessarily define each film in a way of an accurate tally. There are a lot of intangibles, such as pacing, tone, and visual effects that greatly influence the overall quality of a Bond film.
I was a cinematography vote away from having these two tied, yet I prefer Spectre overall by probably 5 or 6 ranking spots.
Edit: That's what prompted me to participate, though. Moonraker has great quality in several areas, especially out of the ones as prompts in this topic, despite having it in my bottom 5, I would probably give it at least 2-4 votes against even the best Bond films.
I find it funny that people are accusing others (I think they are lumping me in this group?) of just hating on SP to bash the new film. My favorite film is MR for christ sake! If I had a problem with the opinions of others, I wouldn't be able to post on here because I am so often in the minority from the consensus opinion.
I adore the double taking pigeon and legitimately get emotional when Dolly and Jaws fall in love. So I'm use to having my opinion dismissed and ridiculed, which is why I would never do that to others. If SP is your favorite film in the franchise then that's amazing! It means you just had your best Bond viewing experience recently which I am genuinely happy for you. I enjoyed SP too, just nowhere near as much as MR!
And always know I still appreciate all of you that find my opinion and tastes abysmal, I just hope it doesn't make you angry like it seems to have done to some of you :(
@soundsofthesinners thanks for putting this thread together, I love the idea. I don't want to get sucked into the rest of this drama, but I felt the need to respond once given that some of the disdain in the responses was aimed at voters like me.
Title track: MR (by default. Not a fan of the Sam smith one at all. Moonraker's string section at least make it feel Bondian.)
Titles: SP (not wild about either but SP's tops it for intrigue)
Main villain: MR (drax is quality down to lonsdales understated delivery - great dialogue for him. I think that Drax is up there as my favourite Moore era villain with Scarmanga and Kananga. The banter they have is perfectly delivered and so often it's a tightrope for the scriptwriters and actors to walk when they deliver it. Sometimes it can be too telegraphed or over sold - but times like this it works perfectly.)
Main Bond Girl: MR (This is tough one. Holly is pretty bland - Chiles and Moore don't really have romantic chemistry but they make a good team - I feel the same with Wai Lin in TND - but she is smart and mission orientated and Lois Chiles a superior actress to Barbara Bach before her. One of my major issues with SP is the necessity to make a deeper relationship with Madeline without earning it. Seadouyx is a good actress too and I see what they were going for with her character - but they didn't execute it.)
Henchman: SP (Hinx is the Best henchman for a long time. Love every scene he's in. Especially Spectre meeting and train fight. Comedy jaws is a big failing of MR)
Plot: MR (I give this by default to MR because SP's plot annoys me a lot. Especially the third act. MR, while being a re-tread of a re-tread, I think does the TSWLM plot better)
Dialogue: MR (for the drax/bond exchanges alone. That's no gimme either - they are among the best villain/hero scenes in the franchise.)
Score: MR (Newman's Bond work leaves me cold - except for the PTS work. Whereas Barry is on great form here. Centrifuge and Corrine Taken Down is haunting and tense, the megalomania and majesty of when they enter the space station and the final appearance of my beloved '007 theme'!)
Settings: SP (Of course they went to Space in MR! But I really love Rome, Alps and Mexico City - just wish they didn't have the climax in Britain - for the second film in a row. )
Action: SP (PTS and Hinx fight alone)
Humour: SP (this is tight but I actually liked the humour in SP more. The broader comedy work better in SP than MR. I think the dry banter between Drax and Bond is great in MR but the comedy Jaws arc is grating.)
Cinematography: MR (this is close but I give it to MR for the death by hounds - that is one of my favourite scenes in the series. Gilbert had a good sense for these - he's also responsible for the rooftop fight scene in YOLT as well which is another favourite of mine.)
Benign Bizarre: MR (the death by hounds is cleaning up here! But also the coffin knife thrower and the one jaws moment that works effectively - if only briefly is when he is dressed up in the carnival outfit. Then they mess that up with silliness too!)
Suspense: MR (Part of my issue with SP is it's lack of suspense throughout the film. MR does it pretty well. But SP does individual moments of tension.)
Minor Characters: SP (Mr White could win this alone. Although I dislike Denbeigh. Not too many memorable ones in MR aside from the usual Mi6.)
Glamour: SP (SP does this very well. Train sequence, Day of the Dead, Rome)
Bond performance: MR (I really like Moore in this. The last time he looks really in good shape and cool. I love his interactions with Drax, his fight with Chang, dramatic performance in wake of the centrifuge going haywire.)
MR - 10
SP - 8
Moonraker is actually my fourth favourite Moore era Bond film. LALD and FYEO are the only two that clearly beat it and I think TSWLM is slightly better because of iconic elements and Jaws is far better in TSWLM. Moonraker gets a lot of stick for being silly but I think if you take away the St marks Square scene a lot of it doesn't really involve Roger Moore himself. Most of the silliness comes from comedy Jaws - bird flapping, carnival dancing, girlfriend meeting, boat wheel breaking - it's really Jaws that provides much of the true slapstick to MR. And the over the top element is really the final part in space - which means while aesthetically it may be too much, narratively, the third act isn't the problem that it is in Spectre.
Spectre has many cool elements - I like Craig's performance. He's approaching from the 'Connery-cool' angle which is great - but at odds with the personal storyline they give him (e.g: Blofeld foster brother, Madeline Swann deeper relationship). The Spectre meeting is memorable, Q is great, I even like the little 'Is it your birthday' scene between Moneypenny and M, the Hinx fight is tense, exciting and everything I hoped when I saw the trailer and the Mr White meeting is perfectly atmospheric. It's overlong - no need for it to be nearly twenty minutes longer than Skyfall but I enjoy watching it on repeat viewings until that final act.
Overall - I just think that MR is more successful in what it is trying to do and while it may lack the ambition of Spectre - SP doesn't quite know what it is trying to achieve. I also think Spectre butchers the Blofeld character by rushing him in to the storyline. I had more connection with Mr White's scene because of the history of the relationship with Bond and the time that was put in to the character so his fate had more impact. For a similar reason, and despite its plot holes, this is why Skyfall works for me - because it involves M's fate. I think this is where they could actually improve on the Blofeld character in the next film - he will have some earned history behind him.
Even being your favorite, there's something in these categories that allow the different qualities of another film to come forth. Action? I mean, I'm sure you can make a case for Moonraker, but not a very good one. The boat chase, which is probably my favorite action scene, is relegated to poor green screens that don't come close to matching stunt frames. That always baffled me because they had MUCH more seamless boat chases in LALD and TMWTGG. They couldn't get the actors out on the water for this one? Not to mention the lift scene which is so anemic it's not even comical. The final bit with the laser battle, acknowledging the year it was made, had absolutely zero pacing compared to Star Wars.
That's not to say Spectre has the best action scenes, but they are totally immersive except for things like Moneypenny and the whole Scooby gang later. The rest of it is well captured and innovative. The Hinx Bond fist fight is amazingly choreographed with both actors physically and emotionally giving it their all to the point where Craig actually bopped Bautista.
Suspense? Like Drax telling us 20 minutes in to see to it Bond is met with something unpleasant. They already showed us the what and where. Unlike in Spectre, we know who but not literally everything else until later. But ok...
That's not to say you don't mean well, but 18-0 is entirely rose-tinted glasses mode.
Mind the doorknob on the way out, sonny boy.
Librarian? Heh. You can't even get your insults right, Poindexter.