Spectre versus the field: Skyfall

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Comments

  • Posts: 6,432
    TWINE is very low in my rankings though it does have some great stand out moments, it just does not work as a film for me and find it hard going to get through when I watch it.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,829
    TWINE is kind of a mess, but it's got so many great moments for me that I find it to be easy viewing. DAD a bit less so because of its lack of consistency in tone.
  • Posts: 19,339
    But we are disecting the films over 18 elements...a film might win but it doesnt mean you dont like it more....but 18-0 to SP over TWINE is not a calculated effort.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,829
    barryt007 wrote: »
    But we are disecting the films over 18 elements...a film might win but it doesnt mean you dont like it more....but 18-0 to SP over TWINE is not a calculated effort.
    Nah, he just Bogarted his fave. Understandable though.
  • Posts: 19,339
    chrisisall wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    But we are disecting the films over 18 elements...a film might win but it doesnt mean you dont like it more....but 18-0 to SP over TWINE is not a calculated effort.
    Nah, he just Bogarted his fave. Understandable though.
    hahaha fair enough ;)

  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited January 2017 Posts: 2,722
    PTS: SP (One of the highlights of SP. I love the style, atmosphere, Craig's coolness, I remember being genuinely excited in the cinema during the helicopter spinning out of control. TWINE's has good work in it but they could have got rid of the opening banker scene and gone straight into mi6 scene.)

    Title Track: TWINE (None of brosnan era bond theme songs really hit the series' previous heights. But Shirley Manson sings well here - better than Crow did on TND and I like the lyrical appropriation of lines of dialogue from the film that are central to its themes.)

    Title Credits: SP (I find TWINE's largely forgettable. SP's gets more palatable with each viewing and TWOTW is aided by the visuals.)

    Main Villain: TWINE (Easily the best villains in the Brosnan era and a central strength to the film's appeal. Both performed by good actors, Marceau and Renard. I love the subtly and nuance of many of Carlyle's acting decisions. While Marceau ramps up the megalomania and woman stuck in arrested development because of the trauma she suffered as a youth.)

    Main Bond Girl: SP (Swann by a distance over Jones. Even with all my issues with the unconvincing deeper emotional connection between Swann and Bond - both Swann as a character and obviously Sedouyx as an actress are stronger than Jones/Richards. Jones as a character is passable, but casting Richards is a death knell.)

    Henchman: SP (Because of TWINE's double villain it means that henchmen are pretty thin - even so they'd have to be good to match Hinx as one of SP's highlights - two scenes in particular, his introduction and that train fight.)

    Plot: TWINE (the writers should be given credit with introducing many ideas - first twin lead villains, M-centric plot, Mi6 under attack. The problem is that the premise is there but it isn't refined and focused as it could be. But its third act doesn't fizzle like SP's - which feels like it leads to a nothing.)

    Dialogue: SP (Except for some Blofeld stuff the dialogue in SP is pretty good. TWINE's has moments - but it has some real low points too.)

    Score: TWINE (Arnold does some good work here - especially the snow scenes. Newman's work is a little too anonymous for my taste.)

    Settings: SP (Rome, Alps, Mexico - all used well and captured beautifully.)

    Action: SP (The last time I watched TWINE I was underwhelmed by the action scenes. The PTS was good and the scene in the mine when Brosnan flies through the tunnels on chains was well executed but many of the other scenes especially later in the film lacked real style or intensity. SP has less action but does it better. The PTS and especially the Hinx fight are memorable and have an intensity to them. I'm even warming to the plane chase in the alps the more I watch SP.)

    Humor: SP (I liked the lighter tone of SP. TWINE has some good stuff with Zukovsky but it has some tone deaf scenes like R's introduction that really hurt the film.)

    Cinematography: SP (Hoytema does a standout job)

    Benign Bizarre: TWINE (Renard's bullet affected pain threshold, Elektra's ear and patricide, sex chair torture.)

    Suspense: SP (I think both these films lack suspense across the film. SP really falls down in the final third particularly the climax and the total lack of creativity in the escape from blofeld's lair. Comparatively TWINE has a better sustained suspense but individual scenes not quite as strong as SP. The scene when Renard and Bond meet is a very good one with strong narrative and character tension. But SP has great suspense for the first half - scenes like PTS, Mr White, Belluci walking through her house, Spectre meeting being particularly strong in this department, Hinx train fight and even the torture scene - especially on first viewing. So on balance I'll give this SP - but only just.)

    Minor Characters: SP (Mr White and Q win this one. Even though I like Zukovsky - but weirdly I find this TWINE performance among my least favourite Judi Dench performance as M. She seems very passive and her delivery a little laboured. I enjoy her reinterpretation in the Craig far more than the Brosnan era - although she's great in Goldeneye.)

    Glamour: SP (The train scene alone oozes glamour as does Belluci's house.)

    Bond Performance: TWINE (I really enjoy DC in SP. I think he has the tone right. Aiming for Connery cool. If only the rest of the film went with him rather than tipping into gritty, personal story - but I'll give this one to Pierce. I prefer Craig to Pierce in every film - but I think this is Pierce's best Bond performance. He's the most engaged and has real chemistry with Marceau - that is sadly lacking with most of his other leading ladies. He also works very well with Coltrane in this movie.)

    SP: 12
    TWINE: 6


    I admire TWINE's ambitions but I also dislike it for not having the courage of its convictions and bailing out. This could have been Brosnan's tragic love story. I honestly think this is one Bond film that could be obviously fixed with rewrites. Eliminate the Jones character and leave the reveal of Elektra as the true villain until the end. With Bond having fallen hard for her and she could have been Brosnan's Tracy/Vesper. I think SP has a good first half but it has a myriad of flaws in the second half and crucially a dissatisfying climax and epilogue.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 463
    PTS: SP
    One of the best in the series. TWINE's is great but feels a bit overlong - I guess the original intention was to have it go into the titles from the Banker's office which would have been much better.
    Title Track: TWINE
    Sam Smith's effort is easily the worst Bond song since...ever.
    Title Credits: SP
    Both aren't close to his best work but SP just nudges ahead of TWINE.
    Main Villain: TWINE
    Electra makes a great villain. Easily tops Waltz' characterisation of Oubahauser/Blofeld.
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Enough has been said about Denise Richards on these forums.
    Henchman: SP
    Hinx has absolutely no characterisation but he's still far more memorable than anyone in TWINE.
    Plot: TWINE
    SP's plot wasn't helped by the fact it tried to shoehorn in the rest of Craig's era.
    Dialogue: SP
    The dialogue is much more memorable in SP.
    Score: TWINE
    Newman's score is a tired rehash of his SF score, which I wasn't too fond of to begin with.
    Settings: SP
    The Rome and Austria scenes are absolutely gorgeous...blows TWINE out of the water.
    Action: TWINE
    The PTS and fight scene on the train are great in SP. However, I feel that overall TWINE has more entertaining action, especially with Arnold's score. The Caviar Factory assault is entertaining if over-the-top but Arnold's score elevates it.
    Humor: SP
    SP has some genuinely humorous moments.
    Cinematography: SP
    The cinematography is absolutely gorgeous in SP.
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    The meeting in Rome is one of the most bizarre and creepy sequences in a Bond film in a long time.
    Suspense: SP
    The torture scene is very chilling but it's undermined by Bond shrugging off the pain instantly. Seeing Monica Bellucci accepting the same fate as Greene only for Bond to step in at the last second and save her was also a great scene.
    Minor Characters: SP
    Mr. White alone wins this category for SP. His only scene is chilling, memorable and one of the highlights of the film.
    Glamor: TWINE
    Bond Performance: SP
    Brosnan tries a little too hard in TWINE.

    TWINE: 6
    SP: 12
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    Posts: 541
    PTS: TWINE
    Title Track: SP
    Title Credits: SP
    Main Villain: TWINE
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: TWINE
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: SP
    Settings: SP
    Action: TWINE
    Humor: TWINE
    Cinematography: SP
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamor: SP
    Bond Performance: TWINE

    This is a tough one to judge. I rank them both similarly. Fair decent entries.

    SP is a weak movie with good production. TWINE is a good movie with weak production.

    SP was probably more entertaining but TWINE was more creative and interesting.

    I'll give it to TWINE for now.
  • Posts: 1,631
    Two absolutely abysmal films, so this should be interesting.

    PTS: SP
    Title Track: TWINE (this one's not even close)
    Title Credits: TWINE
    Main Villain: TWINE
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: TWINE
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: TWINE
    Settings: SP
    Action: TWINE
    Humor: TWINE
    Cinematography: TWINE
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamor: TWINE
    Bond Performance: SP

    TWINE - 9
    SP -8

    TWINE narrowly wins, but, honestly, it's a hollow victory. Both films are terrible.

  • edited January 2017 Posts: 6,844
    Dropped out of this for awhile. Might go back and do the ones I missed at some point, but couldn't pass up the opportunity to square Spectre off against my #2 favorite Bond. Let's see how things shake down.

    PTS: TWINE (no contest)
    Title Track: TWINE (no contest)
    Title Credits: TWINE (no contest)
    Main Villain: TWINE (no contest)
    Main Bond Girl: TWINE (yes, I dig Christmas as a character, genuinely and truly, though Swann is no slouch either)
    Henchman: TWINE (Hinx was a good fighter but fairly forgettable, whereas Renard was a well constructed character brought to monstrous life with a dash of pathos by Carlyle)
    Plot: TWINE
    Dialogue: TWINE (Desmond's beautiful goodbye alone defeats "It was ME, the author of all your pain, James!")
    Score: TWINE (some folks have actually opted for SP here...are you freakin' kidding me???)
    Settings: TWINE (the use of the Thames and sets like the bunker, the caviar factory, and the submarine far outweigh the barely-there, non-use of Rome and Austria)
    Action: TWINE (by a landslide)
    Humor: TWINE
    Cinematography: TWINE
    Benign Bizarre: TWINE
    Suspense: TWINE
    Minor Characters: TWINE
    Glamor: TWINE
    Bond Performance: TWINE (I was initially impressed by Craig in SP, but a second viewing cooled that impression, and TWINE is certainly one of Brosnan's best)

    TWINE - 18
    SP - 0

    TWINE wins this round, but only by 18 points. Doesn't quite seem like enough.
  • Posts: 4,045
    dalton wrote: »
    Two absolutely abysmal films, so this should be interesting.

    PTS: SP
    Title Track: TWINE (this one's not even close)
    Title Credits: TWINE
    Main Villain: TWINE
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: TWINE
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: TWINE
    Settings: SP
    Action: TWINE
    Humor: TWINE
    Cinematography: TWINE
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamor: TWINE
    Bond Performance: SP

    TWINE - 9
    SP -8

    TWINE narrowly wins, but, honestly, it's a hollow victory. Both films are terrible.

    You've missed a category
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    @M16_Cart missed the benign bizarre category, and @dalton probably copied Cart s list and filled in from there.
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    Posts: 541
    I don't consider benign bizarre as criteria. Yes, I enjoy benign bizarre - but it shouldn't be a requirement like suspense and action.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423

    I admire TWINE's ambitions but I also dislike it for not having the courage of its convictions and bailing out. This could have been Brosnan's tragic love story.

    That's why I love TWINE.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    This could have been Brosnan's tragic love story.
    I shudder at the thought.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I used to really like TWINE too but its aged quite badly.
  • Final entries, one and all?
  • Posts: 4,325
    Final entries, one and all?

    Time for Die Another Day
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    This should be fun.
  • Posts: 4,325
    Indeed.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Better late than never.

    PTS: SP (TWINE's just goes on for too long.)
    Title Track: TWINE (Underrated song.)
    Title Credits: TWINE
    Main Villain: TWINE (I'm counting this as Elektra.)
    Main Bond Girl: SP (Ugh, Denise Richards.)
    Henchman: SP (Renard is wasted.)
    Plot: TWINE
    Dialogue: TWINE (Very close, neither are memorable.)
    Score: TWINE
    Settings: SP
    Action: SP
    Humor: TWINE (Coltrane has some genuinely funny moments.)
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: TWINE
    Suspense: SP (By a hair.)
    Minor Characters: TWINE (I guess?)
    Glamour: TWINE
    Bond Performance: SP (I honestly flipped a coin for this one.)

    TWINE - 10
    SP - 8
  • Posts: 4,325
    Time for Die Another Day?
  • LordBrettSinclairLordBrettSinclair Greensleeves
    Posts: 167


    PTS: SP Craig is Bond, finally
    Title Track: TWINE Garbage is great!
    Title Credits: SP
    Main Villain: SP Renard or Elektra, both awful
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: SP TWINE has worst plot of all movies
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: TWINE Arnold is great
    Settings: SP
    Action: SP
    Humor: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: SP TWINE just a bore
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamour: SP the 60s feeling is fantastique
    Bond Performance: SP Craig in SP is better but both weak overall.

    TWINE - 2
    SP - 16

    TWINE has good music that's it.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 3,236
    After a long, arduous round of fighting, Spectre earns one of its biggest victories to date, by a margin of 379-223-8! Its number of games won was even more impressive as, buoyed by an incredible 14 game winning strike, it triumphed by a margin of 24-9-2! Now SP faces another movie that should net it another win, Die Another Day.

    PTS: SP
    Title Track: SP (it pains me to do it, but it must be done)
    Title Credits: DAD
    Main Villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP (Hinx is a bit derivative, but Zao is so generic his character has almost no defining features)
    Plot: Tie (I just can't bring myself to give it to either one)
    Dialogue: SP (DAD has the most insipid dialogue in the series)
    Score: DAD
    Settings: SP (many apologies to Ice Palaces: The Movie)
    Action: SP (by virtue of being less ridiculous, though the swordfight is great)
    Humor: SP
    Cinematography: SP (take that, absurd sped-up footage)
    Benign Bizarre: DAD (it's certainly got a lot of it)
    Suspense: DAD (Bond's imprisonment and release are, in fact, suspenseful)
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamour: SP (DAD is too dumb to be properly glamorous)
    Bond Performance: DAD (Brosnan does the best he can, and he's excellent dealing with Bond's capture)

    SP: 12
    DAD: 5
    Tie: 1

    DAD makes it surprisingly competitive, but the result was never really in doubt. SP nets another win as it moves to the end of the original Bond continuity (or however we want to call it). Let's see your scores!
  • Posts: 4,045
    PTS: SP
    Title Track: DAD
    Title Credits: DAD
    Main Villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: SP
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: SP
    Settings: SP
    Action: SP
    Humor: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamour: SP
    Bond Performance: SP

    SP: 16
    DAD: 2
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,359
    PTS: TIE
    Title Track: DAD
    Title Credits: TIE
    Main Villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: SP
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: DAD
    Settings: TIE
    Action: SP
    Humor: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamour: SP
    Bond Performance: DAD

    SP 12
    DAD 3
    TIE 3
  • MansfieldMansfield Where the hell have you been?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,263
    PTS: Die Another Day - This is probably my favorite part of the film along with the abandoned underground and some others. Spectre is right on its heels. I would probably rate Spectre higher if it was a little more character driven.
    Title Track: Spectre - I like Writing's on the Wall a little more than Die Another Day. Both are similar because I think the instrumentals are the best part of each song. The overall package is just more suitable for Bond in Spectre.
    Title Credits: Die Another Day - I really like the title sequence in Die Another Day as it incorporates the glimpses into Bond's torture during captivity into the fold. It matches the theme song very well too, with the scorpions claws and other elements.
    Main Villain: Spectre - I never cared for the whole Colonel Moon / Gustav Graves angle.
    Main Bond Girl: Spectre - A genuine character with her own charms. Die Another Day tries to carbon copy Tomorrow Never Dies with less impact from a characterization standpoint.
    Henchman: Spectre - Zao is kind of cool and definitely gets his mileage through Die Another Day, but the impact is less noticeable than Hinx in Spectre.
    Plot: Spectre - I'll take a generic plot over a ridiculous plot. This has nothing to do with the scheme or weapons, as I voted for Moonraker over Spectre here, but in the execution of the plot. Die Another Day throws things in just to check a box for honoring a prior Bond film.
    Dialogue: Spectre - The highs are about the same for both films, but I would say the lows are worse in Die Another Day.
    Score: Spectre - Interesting matchup here since both tracks recycle themes from past films. Thomas Newman brings more new sounds into the film than does Arnold here. This is my least favorite Arnold score. I'm a big fan of all his other work.
    Settings: Spectre - By location, this one purely goes to Spectre. Die Another Day does a better job of making you feel the sights of where they actually are, though.
    Action: Spectre - This is another category with a similar kind of matchup. Both films have really stellar individual action sequences, but some awful ones mixed in between. I'm going with Spectre here because I prefer the hand-to-hand combat slightly more than the sword fight and I find the electric suit and laser sequences to be irredeemable.
    Humor: Die Another Day - All of the jokes and quips fit the character. Even during my initial infatuation with Spectre, I thought the humor in it was overstating. Perhaps it just misses for me, but I don't see most of the humor fitting with Craig's Bond. He is perfectly developed into a sarcastic kind of humor that is actually left out more than not compared to past entries.
    Cinematography: Spectre - I don't like the way much of Die Another Day is shot. Spectre takes this one handily.
    Benign Bizarre: Die Another Day - I really like the car. Apparently, I'm not alone since a team developed an invisible car using practical scientific application of the concept from the film.
    Suspense: Die Another Day - I'm going to go with Die Another Day on this one, but it was a confusing plot so some of the suspense is negated.
    Minor Characters: Spectre - The supporting characters are good in Die Another Day, but they don't have much to do. The minor characters are much more central to the plot in Spectre. This alone does not confer a positive, but overall they do a good job (only subtraction goes to the MI6 staff over usage in the third act).
    Glamor: Spectre - There's some glamor in Die Another Day, but a lot of it is interrupted by unglamorous elements. Spectre has that classic Bond feel injected throughout.
    Bond Performance: Die Another Day - This is the title Brosnan tried to add the most to the character. Without the excessive cheese, it would have been much more appreciated. I kind of related Craig's performance in Spectre to the common opinion of Brosnan's other work in that it is casual and pedestrian. The significant difference is that it's my viewpoint that Brosnan's Bond was established to be that character, whereas Craig projected so much more that it makes this feel more hallow in some way.

    Spectre: 12
    Die Another Day: 6

    I'm already looking forward to Casino Royale. Since starting this at Moonraker, it will be the most likely to score an 18-0 out of the films I participated in.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,208
    PTS: DAD
    Title Track: DAD
    Title Credits: SP
    Main Villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: SP
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: DAD
    Settings: SP
    Action: DAD
    Humor: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: DAD
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: DAD
    Glamour: DAD
    Bond Performance: DAD

    DAD 8
    SP 10
  • edited March 2022 Posts: 6,844
    PTS: DAD (one of the better parts of the film, a strong start)
    Title Track: DAD (techno feels truer to Fleming than emo, and less grating on my ears)
    Title Credits: DAD
    Main Villain: DAD (Toby is at least present and having fun)
    Main Bond Girl: SP (were you expecting someone else?)
    Henchman: DAD (I've always dug Zao and the concept of his diamond-scarred face)
    Plot: DAD (the lesser of two turkeys)
    Dialogue: SP (the lesser of two turkeys)
    Score: DAD
    Settings: DAD
    Action: DAD
    Humor: SP
    Cinematography: DAD (DAD is actually a well framed and colorfully vibrant film)
    Benign Bizarre: DAD
    Suspense: DAD
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamour: DAD
    Bond Performance: DAD

    DAD 14
    SP 4
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2017 Posts: 17,829
    PTS: SP
    Title Track: DAD (If SP's was sung by a female I ptobably would have gone with it)
    Title Credits: DAD
    Main Villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: SP
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: DAD
    Settings: DAD
    Action: SP
    Humor: DAD
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: DAD
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamour: DAD
    Bond Performance: DAD

    DAD 8
    SP 10

    Seems close, but I still like SP a good deal more.
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