The Irish General Elections 2016/2020

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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2016 Posts: 18,280
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I did not follow it, maybe I should have had. After all, I love Ireland, I have some Irish blood (from far away) and they are our neighbours. AND they are a republic.

    Yes, you certainly should follow it as it is fascinating and I guess we all have Irish blood somewhere... ;)

    The fact that they are a republic does not impress me as a unionist of course.

    Staying in the UK wouldn't have worked. Different people, different cultures, etc. For the record I think Ireland is far from perfect. The Catholic Church is still too influential (they have very strict abortion laws as I understand). However they've got the right sort of political system for a democracy.

    Oh no, they have abortion in Ireland. It's just that there's a twelve month waiting list.

    I agree that the Catholic Church is still too influential there but that too is changing with all of the child abuse scandals and paedophile priests.

    I know they do, but I understand abortion is very restricted in Ireland. I have a friend of mine who lives there, she said that her son being unbaptized poses a real struggle at school.
    I really think just like the American president, politicians should only be allowed two
    terms, then move on to let some new blood in. It might help to keep them in the
    Real world of ordinary people.

    There's no such thing as a perfect political system, it seems.

    And there should not be. You need to go for what's best, not what's perfect.

    Yes, and abortion is very restricted in Northern Ireland too, something I happen to support.

    I don't. And I understand it might be the least of their problems, but still, in the most tribal part of the UK, it might serve them well if they were a little bit more liberal. One can dream.

    Each to their own and all that jazz. Would you have supported your own termination as a foetus I wonder? Something to think about there. And I'm not trying to be snide or hurtful; it's merely an exercise in thought. I believe that human (and animal) life is precious and that nobody has the right to terminate a life just because they feel like it, medical life threatening grounds excepted of course.

    As someone who's then girlfriend has had an abortion I do resent the lightness of your tone and the ease with which you seem to condemn choises that are in themselves extremely hard to take. I've always wanted a child, so to decide to stop the pregnancy (copper spiral failed it's function) was very hard. But my ex wasn't ready, having enough personal problems. Our relationship was already under a lot of strain after many setbacks. And to put a child through life where the mother would resent it and the parents would struggle to give it a normal upbringing was for me reason enough to not go through with it, even though the joy I felt when we first found out was overwhealming, and even though it's been a heartfelt wish for me for so long.

    But to answer your question: yes I would be happy if my parents had gone through such an ordeal to have my life terminated.

    And another thing. I'd be more then interested in the way you care about human and animal life. Do you eat meat, for instance? Did you ver support any form of warfare? And be honest. How many snails, ants, mice, spiders have you killed in your lifetime?

    Obviously I'm sorry to hear of your experiences and if I offended you in any way I am very sorry about that. I think I made it clear in the above post that I was not being flippant, rather trying to respectively put my pro-life side of the argument across. I've put this part in bold.

    However, on your argument here:

    You'll notice that the question above was not in fact addressed to you but to @Ludovico but go ahead with your moral outrage if you must. Equating the life of a foetus/baby with that of insects and vermin is, to my old-fashioned mind, deplorable - you don't surely think I would feel any guilt if I killed one of those? It's a non-starter for an argument and totally irrelevant to the termination of a human life. It's apples and oranges as far as arguments go.

    You have your views, I have mine and I suspect never the twain shall meet. I'm not going to take a coronary embolism if you don't share my views or even merely see the merit in what I'm saying. I'm not getting pulled into a protracted argument on this - I've had enough of that nonsense on this forum in the past. End of story.
  • Posts: 15,123
    The question was also an appeal to emotion and thus prone to backfire.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited May 2016 Posts: 8,264
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »

    Each to their own and all that jazz. Would you have supported your own termination as a foetus I wonder? Something to think about there. And I'm not trying to be snide or hurtful; it's merely an exercise in thought. I believe that human (and animal) life is precious and that nobody has the right to terminate a life just because they feel like it, medical life threatening grounds excepted of course.

    As someone who's then girlfriend has had an abortion I do resent the lightness of your tone and the ease with which you seem to condemn choises that are in themselves extremely hard to take. I've always wanted a child, so to decide to stop the pregnancy (copper spiral failed it's function) was very hard. But my ex wasn't ready, having enough personal problems. Our relationship was already under a lot of strain after many setbacks. And to put a child through life where the mother would resent it and the parents would struggle to give it a normal upbringing was for me reason enough to not go through with it, even though the joy I felt when we first found out was overwhealming, and even though it's been a heartfelt wish for me for so long.

    But to answer your question: yes I would be happy if my parents had gone through such an ordeal to have my life terminated.

    And another thing. I'd be more then interested in the way you care about human and animal life. Do you eat meat, for instance? Did you ver support any form of warfare? And be honest. How many snails, ants, mice, spiders have you killed in your lifetime?

    Obviously I'm sorry to hear of your experiences and if I offended you in any way I am very sorry about that. I think I made it clear in the above post that I was not being flippant, rather trying to respectively put my pro-life side of the argument across. I've put this part in bold.

    However, on your argument here:

    You'll notice that the question above was not in fact addressed to you but to @Ludovico but go ahead with your moral outrage if you must. Equating the life of a foetus/baby with that of insects and vermin is, to my old-fashioned mind, deplorable - you don't surely think I would feel any guilt if I killed one of those? It's a non-starter for an argument and totally irrelevant to the termination of a human life. It's apples and oranges as far as arguments go.

    You have your views, I have mine and I suspect never the twain shall meet. I'm not going to take a coronary embolism if you don't share my views or even merely see the merit in what I'm saying. I'm not getting pulled into a protracted argument on this - I've had enough of that nonsense on this forum in the past. End of story.


    ..and that nobody has the right to terminate a life just because they feel like it.

    For a choice that was so hard to make, it sure as hell is hurtful if someone is judgemental on something he/she has never had any close dealings with. If you don't want to be offensive, then think twice before you post something this ignorant. I'll repeat those words: because they feel like it. It's like telling a cancer patient not to whine too much as it is only 'a desease'.

    You may not agree with the choice we made, but saying we did it on a whim is outragious and false. Claiming 'you don't want to offend' falls flat when you do just that three words further. You haven't got a clue how much pain is involved. My moral outrage is directed towards you because of the ignorant way you're treating a very intense and painful topic.

    And the question about animal life, a statement you yourself made, was to see how easy you would tread on your own principles. Indeed, I never expected you to care about animals we (you) consider vermin. But it IS life. Apparently you don't want to see it, for you yourself have put yourself on the moral highground and end up a hypocrite. It's either that or you haven't thought thing sthrough at all. When do you care bout an animals life, and when don't you? Some animals are vermin to us but have a holy status for others, or they consider them vermin where we think of them of beautiful creatures.

    We have people keeping rabbits as pets, and others (farmers) kill them like vermin. Which rabbit's life do you consider worth keeping, and which should be destryed, and what's the difference between the two rabbits?

    Please read what I posted twice. Yes, there's emotion in it, the choice was made exactly a year ago and it still hurts. But there's a very important question to you as well.

  • Posts: 15,123
    @CommanderRoss-When I say the question was an appeal to emotion, I meant the question @Dragonpol asked me earlier in this thread, whether or not I would have appreciated if my parents had decided to abort me. Which is not only an appeal to emotion but a strange question all things considered: no human being can be in a situation where it can ponder on its own existence and potential while in the womb. (Actually, when does a human start being even conscious of its own existence?) You can reflect back on your time before birth of course and then you can assess whether your existence is a good thing or not. What I do know now is that I am glad that my parents became my parents because they chose to be, not because parenthood was forced upon them. Had it been the latter, my life, their lives and our relationships would have been considerably different and while I cannot be certain of how it would had turned out I can say it would have had certain negative impacts. I think about these things a lot these days, not so much about abortion as about parenthood in general and responsibility as I am going to become a father in a few months (if everything goes well).

    But hey, I am all for debating on restriction abortion if, and only IF: people get educated about sexuality properly so they can make informed decisions about it and practice safe sex, people have unrestricted access to contraceptives and know how to use them properly (see what I said about about education), said contraceptives become virtually infallible and of course we find a way to eliminate rape in all forms. Until this happens, we can certainly reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions by working on improving sex ed, giving access to contraceptives, etc.

    I don't know how is sex ed in the schools of North Ireland, here in England I have witnessed it and it is appalling, to sometimes catastrophic consequences. I might be wrong, but I think it might be just as worse in North Ireland, if not more so because people waste their energies on religious differences.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2016 Posts: 18,280
    Just for the record I'm not going to get into a heavy debate on the controversial issue of abortion and the pros and cons surrounding it. Nor am I wishing to discuss personal experiences of abortion, however distressing they undoubtedly are. I think those things are personal and private and I don't want to cause any more distress in that regard.

    I quite clearly stated above that the question on abortion was put to @Ludovico and no-one else and he gave his answer to it, and that should have been that. I did not set out in any way to offend members here. As I clearly did offend the member @CommanderRoss I once again offer a sincere apology; he has my sympathy. Perhaps I was indeed too flippant in my remarks on abortion but it doesn't take long to type a sentence or two out on a keyboard and hit 'post'. Perhaps I need to contemplate matters more and post less. If so, then this was a indeed a hard lesson learned.

    This was a thread on the subject of the Irish General Election 2016 and the ongoing negotiations to form a new government in the Republic of Ireland. It was not intended to be a discussion about abortion in Ireland or any other country. The issue of abortion was not brought up in this thread by myself.

    If members here wish to start a thread on abortion and give their thoughts on it, feel free. I resent the hijacking of this thread to score points on abortion. It was never the intended purpose of this thread when I created it some months ago. My interest was in politics and not moral issues that we could discuss all year round and never get any agreement on.

    I have had previous bad experiences on this forum with the discussion of religion in the Charlie Hebdo Paris attacks thread. I promised myself then that I would never get involved again in such contentious discussions. As of now, I have let myself down by getting dragged into just such a no-win situation as debating abortion ultimately brings about.

    I need to seriously consider my future as a member here to see if I should continue posting at all if all I seem to do is offend others and inflame opinion. As stated before in the religion debate, it's certainly not why I joined up here back in December 2012.

    I happen to live in a country with many problems (Northern Ireland) but one thing the majority of the population agrees on is that abortion (as is practiced on the UK mainland) should remain illegal. I hold to this view. That may offend some. I'm willing to take the flack on that as those are my sincerely held views. Am I offended some think otherwise? No. Have I a personal experience of abortion? No, but I have an opinion on it nonetheless. I'm not going to lose sleep on this if others disagree with my view. It is an emotive and controversial topic I'd do well to steer clear of on a James Bond fan forum. That's all I have to say, really. I hope members can see my perspective on things.

    Sincerely,

    Dragonpol.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,264
    @Ludovico first off congratulations on your upcoming parenthood! I hope it will bring a lot of happiness to your life!

    I understand the question was not aimed at me, it wasn't the question I reacted on. And you're absolutely right on the question posed beeing an impossible one. I'll leave my views on abortion out of the equation, as this indeed isn't the thread for it, but I will say this: In my country it's legal, but there are many important rules. One of which is you have to go to your local doctor first, then go to the clinic and then you've got a 5 day contemplation period. This is mandatory. They also talk to the girl alone to check if she's not pressured into this.

    @Dragonpol thank you for your apology. And, in my turn, I apologise for the ferocity in which I reacted. I think it's always dangerous to react too easily on matters whith such impact. I wasn't intent on discussing abortion itself here, merely the notion that such things could be done on a whim. Many topics like this, or religion, or adoption to name just two more carry with them a gravity of emotions that are invisible for those who haven't dealt with it at close quarters. So perhaps therein lies indeed a lesson. Behind every post, in the end, there's a living person (except for @Thunderfinger of course, he's a Nordic god).

    Again, sorry for my outburst. I may not agree with you on this topic, but I'm not here to change your mind on it.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,280
    Thanks for understanding. Safe to say I've definitely learned a life lesson from this experience. I wish you and @Ludovico all the very best for the future.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2020 Posts: 18,280
  • Posts: 12,526
    A 3 way result?!!! Wow!!!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    Really quite unprecedented. Also good to see the extreme far right parties poll so low that they won't qualify for state funding. You love to see it.

    Possibility of a second election considering there's little chance of a coalition between the top three?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited February 2020 Posts: 8,217
    An Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, becomes the first outgoing leader in the history of the State to not be re-elected on first preferences in his own constituency.

    Sinn Féin defeated three leaders of the biggest parties on first preferences in this election. I'm sure they wish they had run more candidates.

  • Posts: 7,430
    An Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, becomes the first outgoing leader in the history of the State to not be re-elected on first preferences in his own constituency.

    Sinn Féin defeated three leaders of the biggest parties on first preferences in this election. I'm sure they wish they had run more candidates.


    Their biggest mistake of this election! They have huge surplus for those elected so far. Could have got more candidates in! Well done to Paul Donnelly. He was shafted in the last election, he has his revenge!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    Leo still not elected on the second count in his constituency. He will likely get in on the third count, but it is nonetheless a massive embarassment for the leader of the outgoing government.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Dear members,

    Politics, while interesting and relevant, can cause a lot of friction amongst members. The mod team has deemed it prudent to henceforth close all threads directly addressing contemporary politics. Bond films exist in a political context too, but WWII and the Cold War are obviously 'safer' topics than Trump, Brexit and other modern referenda or elections. Members interested in politics can, of course, always safely resort to private chatrooms.

    Even this mod knows that it's probably best not to have the milk so close to the cat. ;-)

    We sincerely hope all members can respect this decision. We also thank @Dragonpol for having kindly agreed to allow this thread to be closed. As always, this community presents itself, through its fine and understanding members, as something great to be a part of, with personal opinions less important than the solid friendships on which this community is built.

    We will keep the thread open for a day or so, so that every member has the chance to share their opinion in this matter, which we both value and respect.

    Thank you all.

    Darth Dimi, on behalf of the Mod Team.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,264
    I'm a bit surprised by this to be honest. As of recently I've seen no vitriol in the political threads. On the contrary, as long as it's not about Trump people seem to be able to respect each other's differences. Not that I deem it very important, mind you. After all this is a Bond-forum, but I've enjoyed most of these threads quite a bit because of the different opinions.
  • Posts: 7,653
    +1
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited February 2020 Posts: 12,480
    I appreciate that we have in the past allowed civil discussion regarding politics simply because of the volatile, changing, and important times we live in. I wanted my voice heard as I saw some developments as dangerous.

    But all along I have felt that politics on a Bond forum was not necessary, and I do not mind all politics thread staying closed. We have to take action offline, in our daily lives, as well as on other websites that are about politics directly. So thanks, admins and mods, but I do understand and agree that political threads should now be excluded.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    @CommanderRoss
    The problem is partly what you are correctly referring to, Trump. If we cannot allow a Trump thread, can we allow other politics threads? We had to close down other threads in the past too, like the world events threads, for similar reasons. You are right, though; these threads can be very interesting. But it would seem that many members feel most comfortable without them, and so does the mod team. I hope you can respect that.
This discussion has been closed.