How should the 00 section be handled in future movies?

13

Comments

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    The whole Bond girl who's his equal concept is a really good idea imo. It's just hardly ever been well executed. I think the problem is, the writers never tend to give this category of Bond girl a personality or background outside of "agent like Bond, but a WOMAN?!". Camille was them sort of trying to amend this imo but she was just dull and there was too much going on in that film to really become invested in her subplot.

    If they got a Bond girl with the skillset of Jinx and Wai Lin, but gave them a personality and backstory on par with Severine, Natalya, Melina, etc, that's the right way of doing it.

    They came very close in 1977 with Anya, one of the best Bond girls imo, but Bach's delivery was a bit wooden at times and she eventually just became a damsel in distress anyway. But they finally managed it in 1989 with Pam. Tough, resourceful, but also an actual human being with somewhat of a backstory and a real personality (she's even somewhat flawed, like when she gets jealous at the end). That's why Pam is the best Bond's equal girl and one of the best Bond girls in general, imo. She was strong, resourceful, but also felt like a real person. Jinx, Wai Lin, Goodhead, etc, feel like cartoon characters.

    I wouldn't mind the other 00s being incorporated into the plot. One idea is that you could establish them in early office scenes (I'm thinking two others, 008 and 0011 as in the novels? Can't remember the numbers Fleming used, but anyway two others, one guy and one girl) and then when the stakes are raised and Bond discovers a world domination plot (either in the film they're introduced or in a later film), him and the other 00s are sent to sabotage the villains base to make way for ground troops to get in. The other 00s being called in would be a great way to show that the stakes are really high. Maybe 008, Bond's rival in the office, actually ends up sacrificing himself to save Bond in a nice emotional moment during the battle, angering Bond and spurring him into a final confronation with the villain. Just ideas, but there's a lot of cool stuff you could do with it imo.

    Disagree entirely.

    What's the best moment in the franchise? When Bond puts on his skis and with the whole of SPECTRE on his back and only has his own wits, courage and the skiing technique Hannes Oberhauser taught him to save himself and the world. Barry cranks up the music to 11 and we have a moment of Bondian perfection. If we had a male and female 00 tagging along it would be awful.

    Bond is the man who is a silhouette and works best on his own.

    His attitude is summed up early on in CR when Fleming writes 'Bond was not amused. 'What the hell do they want to send me a woman for? he said bitterly.'

    The best Bond girls (Tania, Tracy, Natalya, Vesper) combine female sensuality and vulnerability with being Bond's equal in other areas. When the Bond girl can kill the villains as easily as Bond he becomes redundant.

    At the end of the day Bond stories are very traditional George v the dragon, saving the damsel style tales. Once you start overcomplicating things you end up with... well MI and Simon Pegg's 'hilarious' comic relief.

    But I know I'm an old git and it's really interesting and cool to have team MI6 popping every minute and all the 00s joining in with Bond so I'll just skulk back to my Fleming books.
    I definitely agree with everything that's said there. Bond is the showrunner, not the other heroines just for the sake of injecting some agenda into the case. Now, I don't mind the rather strong Bond girls and femme fatales as long as they play they parts like Emma Peel had in the Avengers television series, but on condition she acts as a secondary character rather than trying to steal the spotlight from Bond. That won't be Bond if such thing occurs, and to tell you the truth, the Craig films are full of them. The Bond Girl Bond's Equal thing keeps suffocating the whole conceptual identity of the Bond theme.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,719
    Maybe 008, Bond's rival in the office, actually ends up sacrificing himself to save Bond in a nice emotional moment during the battle, angering Bond and spurring him into a final confronation with the villain. Just ideas, but there's a lot of cool stuff you could do with it imo.

    I rather have Tamahori come back with a return of the invisible car, Jinx and Christmas Jones than seeing this idea put in motion. How many times do we need a personal anger/motivation for Bond? Enough is enough. The 2 longest serving Bond, Sean Connery and Roger Moore, are actually the only iterations of the character to never have personal motives to accomplish their missions, and are the only 2 actors to never go rogue at any point. Why can't we get back to this? I thought Sean Connery was like a demi-god on this community, and he never had trust issues with M, or went rogue, or let anything or anyone get under his skin. I applaud CR for playing with the formula and fleshing out the character of Bond, but that should have been self-contained to that film. CR felt like a very special film in 2006, but it's uniqueness is diminishing with each passing film, as Bond going rogue, Bond have personal motives, trust issues with M are becoming more cliched than anything that occured in 1962-2002.
  • Posts: 233
    I think a "Bond's equal" type of character only really works if they are working in opposition to Bond, otherwise, as Wiz said, they become redundant. I think Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation handled it quite well. That film had a female agent who was more or less Ethan Hunt's equal, but she wasn't there to just tag along or constantly humiliate the protagonist a la Wai Lin and Jinx. She had her own agenda which was often opposed to the IMF team, which is a much more interesting relationship.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Exactly!
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 12,837
    Maybe 008, Bond's rival in the office, actually ends up sacrificing himself to save Bond in a nice emotional moment during the battle, angering Bond and spurring him into a final confronation with the villain. Just ideas, but there's a lot of cool stuff you could do with it imo.

    I rather have Tamahori come back with a return of the invisible car, Jinx and Christmas Jones than seeing this idea put in motion. How many times do we need a personal anger/motivation for Bond? Enough is enough. The 2 longest serving Bond, Sean Connery and Roger Moore, are actually the only iterations of the character to never have personal motives to accomplish their missions, and are the only 2 actors to never go rogue at any point. Why can't we get back to this? I thought Sean Connery was like a demi-god on this community, and he never had trust issues with M, or went rogue, or let anything or anyone get under his skin. I applaud CR for playing with the formula and fleshing out the character of Bond, but that should have been self-contained to that film. CR felt like a very special film in 2006, but it's uniqueness is diminishing with each passing film, as Bond going rogue, Bond have personal motives, trust issues with M are becoming more cliched than anything that occured in 1962-2002.

    I was just spitballing ideas for how the other 00s could be used. I'm not suggesting another revenge driven film. What I suggested was just a small moment more along the lines of "and that's for 009" rather than another revenge or Bond going rogue film.

    @TheWizardOfIce But equally, when Bond goes back to storm Piz Gloria, he has half the Union Corse behind him. My suggestion of how to use the other 00s would just be that, after Bond has escaped the clutches of the villain and uncovered their plot, the other 00s are called in for the final battle to show how high the stakes are. I'm thinking something like Bond and the other two 00s have to sneak in and plant explosives, then soldiers storm in, big battle breaks out, Bond ends up confronting villain alone (or maybe post battle in a seperate scene ala GF or TSWLM). As for the Bond girls, I see what you mean but again I think it's all down to execution. Pam for instance doesn't make Bond redundant but she also is actually strong, resourceful and a skilled agent in her own right. They work well as a team (eg- her flying him to the tanker). Wai Lin and Jinx is the lazy option. Just "they're just as good as Bond!" and then they find themselves written into a corner so they lazily, despite spending the whole film trying to show how tough and on par with Bond they are, turn them into damsels in distresses. But then even with Jinx there's that aspect of what I'm talking about, working in tandem with Bond (she fights Frost, he fights Graves) rather than making them redundant.

    I don't think the idea is equivalent to pissing on Fleming's grave either. He never really went as far as a Pam Bouvier type himself but his girls weren't always just damsels. Kissy helps Bond swim to the castle, just like Pam helped Bond reach Sanchez's tankers by flying him there. Domino escapes of her own accord and saves Bond by killing Largo, Pussy Galore (while not doing much in the story) is probably the original Bond's equal type in how she's portrayed, etc.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited July 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Can't we just have:

    Bond gets his mission (that has nothing to do with MI6)from M
    Flirts with MP
    Gets a few gadgets from Q
    Goes to some spectacular locations
    Shags some gorgeous birds
    Kills some dodgy foreigners
    Does some amazing stunts
    Makes the odd quip
    And does it all on his own without any help

    Is that really too much to ask for?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    =D> sounds good to me.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,299
    Well I think that's what everyone is hoping for and some unused Fleming (or even Continuation Bond novel) material added into the mix would really be the cherry on the icing!
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 12,837
    Can't we just have:

    Bond gets his mission (that has nothing to do with MI6)from M
    Flirts with MP
    Gets a few gadgets from Q
    Goes to some spectacular locations
    Shags some gorgeous birds
    Kills some dodgy foreigners
    Does some amazing stunts
    Makes the odd quip
    And does it all on his own without any help
    Is that really too much to ask for?

    I'm not arguing against a return to a more straight forward style of Bond film but Bond has always had help, right back to Quarrel and Leiter (or if you want to go as far back as the books, Mathis). I just don't see why the Bond girl (or other 00 agents, as long as it's just in a battle scenario or something similar like I described and not them tagging along for the whole film) can't provide that help. Obviously there still have to be situations where Bond is alone and has to use his wits, resourcefulness and maybe a gadget or two to survive but there's no reason why we can't have the best of both worlds (bit biased because of how much I love the film but again I think LTK is the best example, in terms of Bond having strong allies but not being made redundant and still having to use his wits, pull off amazing stunts, etc, to prevail).

    But idea of Bond being completely on his own (trapped in some hostile war zone maybe? With the whole film being an Escape From New York type scenario) could be a really interesting idea, imo. I never thought I'd use Die Hard 5 as an example of anything positive but does anyone who's seen it remember the bit where Mcclane's son tries to call in an extraction but they disavow him and he's trapped in Moscow left to finish the mission alone (with the police on his tail, etc)? I'm thinking something like that except obviously Bond doesn't have his hero cop dad helping out.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Hopefully get D Arnold back to do the score. Or at least never let T Newman near
    A Bond film again !
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Or a forgettable score that only tries to compliment the momentum of the scene.
  • Posts: 12,837
    Hopefully get D Arnold back to do the score. Or at least never let T Newman near
    A Bond film again !

    Now this I agree with. SP, as much as I loved it, was maybe the lowpoint in terms of music. I don't count it as too much of a black mark on the film because it's very very unintrusive. But it's down there with the worst and at least Serra and Conti tried. The SP score is so lazy, it's as if Newman felt bitter towards EON after their fallings out (because he didn't want to incorporate the theme song into SF) but Mendes wanted him back, so he agreed to return and stick it to Barbara and MGW by not even phoning it in, literally not doing any work at all and just posting them a copy of the SF score. It wouldn't be good enough for any film, but for a franchise that's full of John Barry's masterpieces, it's just an insult. The only pieces I like are the gunbarrel music and the Rome meeting/car chase music.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,719
    The SP gunbarrel music was used in the last scene of SF, the first 10/15 seconds during the MGM logo is the exact same as when Moneypenny tells her name in SF.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 12,837
    The SP gunbarrel music was used in the last scene of SF, the first 10/15 seconds during the MGM logo is the exact same as when Moneypenny tells her name in SF.

    Christ really? Why would nobody call him out on this? He's getting paid all that money and he can only be arsed to come up with a few new tracks. There's reusing a couple of cues and there's being bone idle. I remember when he was first announced as composer for Skyfall and a vocal group of fans were going on about how crap Arnold was and how much better Newman was going to be. Funny how things change as I'd argue the majority of Bond fans don't like him now and even those that do would probably struggle to defend his blatant laziness and rehashing for SP.

    It's a shame because for me the score is the one noticeable thing in that film that's subpar. I didn't really notice in the cinema, because it's (while insanely lazy) very unintrusive, it doesn't dectract from the film in the way that Serra's piece for the Ferrari/Aston race did. So forgettable that you don't notice the laziness. But once I rewatched it I began to notice more and more how much of it was just recycled from SF. It's a credit to the film that it remains in my top five despite Newman doing his best to try and sink it (I had it on par with the Dalton films but once I noticed how lazy the score was I decided it'd have to be below them, so now it's no 3 for me).
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited July 2016 Posts: 10,592
    Can't we just have:

    Bond gets his mission (that has nothing to do with MI6)from M
    Flirts with MP
    Gets a few gadgets from Q
    Goes to some spectacular locations
    Shags some gorgeous birds
    Kills some dodgy foreigners
    Does some amazing stunts
    Makes the odd quip
    And does it all on his own without any help

    Is that really too much to ask for?

    Definitely. Although, I can predict the critic consensus for whenever they fully return to formula:

    "Bond 25 is a disappointingly conventional entry in the franchise."

  • Posts: 15,161
    Here's my wish/suggestion about the 00 section: please don't turn 00 agents into cannon fodder or red shirts. That is all.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,356
    As previously mentioned, The music from the end of Skyfall where M gives Bond the briefing is used at the beginning of SP before the Gunbarrel and used yet again when Bond sees Q and drives off with Madeline using the CR version of the James Bond theme for the third and hopefully final time.

    When it comes to Bond, Newman was a hack.
  • Posts: 12,837
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's my wish/suggestion about the 00 section: please don't turn 00 agents into cannon fodder or red shirts. That is all.

    Not so much cannon fodder but dying is kind of one of their purposes already. The use of the other 00s so far can be easily broken down into three categories

    Bond's rival who's going to or gets the mission/car/whatever if Bond doesn't step up his game, waiting in the wings to replace him: 008 in GF, 009 in SP. And I'm sure there was another but I can't remember.

    Dies to move the plot forward: 002 in TMWTGG, 009 in OP, I guess you could even count Trevelayn

    Villain: 006

    And then there's the TB meeting and that's all the mentions/appearances, right?
  • ChriscoopChriscoop North Yorkshire
    Posts: 281
    I think sp was weakened by the score, which fit better with the tone of Sf. The score literally deflates the action scenes and is why I think a lot people didn't find them that exciting. Arnold would have done a much better job, he utilises that Barry feel. Having said that I still do love SP.
  • ChriscoopChriscoop North Yorkshire
    Posts: 281
    I quite like the idea of Bond having some minor interaction with other 00's out in field, 009 in New York to get some info or equipment. I enjoyed bond and Mathis together and I'd love Jeff wright back as Felix. I missed him in Sf and SP. Meeting up with another 00 makes a bit more sense than q or Moneypenny popping up all over the place. I still can't understand q in the confession box in fyeo as much as love old Des.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited July 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Fleming never actually showed another 00, merely mentioned some in passing.

    I'm happy to go with dear old Ian's judgement and say we don't need them.
  • ChriscoopChriscoop North Yorkshire
    Posts: 281
    We don't need them I agree, it just adds a different dynamic, ge let the genie out the bottle and I for one have had enough of rogue agents, I like the use of Kerim bey, and also Mathis, Bond would at some point liase with other agents while on a mission. But as I said these interactions should be minor. It also gives chance for bond to have meetings over dinner, which is very apparent in the novels.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,299
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's my wish/suggestion about the 00 section: please don't turn 00 agents into cannon fodder or red shirts. That is all.

    Exactly. We don't need anything like that. Double-O agents are the cream of the crop and so shouldn't be killed off at the drop of a hat. Sadly, this is often what has happened to them when they have appeared in the Bond films.

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's my wish/suggestion about the 00 section: please don't turn 00 agents into cannon fodder or red shirts. That is all.

    Exactly. We don't need anything like that. Double-O agents are the cream of the crop and so shouldn't be killed off at the drop of a hat. Sadly, this is often what has happened to them when they have appeared in the Bond films.
    That's why the last one was afraid to come out of the hideout and allowed his car to be stolen by his colleague. ;)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2016 Posts: 18,299
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's my wish/suggestion about the 00 section: please don't turn 00 agents into cannon fodder or red shirts. That is all.

    Exactly. We don't need anything like that. Double-O agents are the cream of the crop and so shouldn't be killed off at the drop of a hat. Sadly, this is often what has happened to them when they have appeared in the Bond films.
    That's why the last one was afraid to come out of the hideout and allowed his car to be stolen by his colleague. ;)

    Yes, though perhaps times have changed with even soldiers potentially facing legal action if they kill on the battlefield. It's a further example of the "safety first" climate we live in as well as the misapplication of human rights legislation.
  • ChriscoopChriscoop North Yorkshire
    Posts: 281
    009 got his car nicked because he was too busy in bed with Moneypenny ;)
    Anyway what does 009 need the Aston for in New York? And how were they getting there?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I would personally like to simply see the other 00s. That's the biggie missing from the Craig era for me. We've seen Craig's Bond in the heat and in the snow, in a dinner jacket, in a tux, getting his heart broke, punching a bloke, riding on a train, in a plane, even fighting on a crane. We've seen him exude the ways of the old Bond before in his dress and how he composes himself, but what we've haven't seen is him interacting with other 00s, and I really want to see that before he's done.

    One of the reasons TB is a big favorite of mine is because Ken Adam gave us that gorgeous meeting room set where Bond and all the 00s get their marching orders from M, and in that moment it really clicks for you that Bond is just one of many in a complex system.

    I for one would love to see Bond 25 involve a SPECTRE threat that Bond and the other 00s have to work together to face on an international easter egg hunt, where they team up to weed out that threat. Better yet if 009 is paired with Bond and they clash over what 007 did to his property in SP. There's so much opportunity for great intrigue and repartee between Bond and his fellow 00s that I don't want to see it passed up.
  • Posts: 15,161
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's my wish/suggestion about the 00 section: please don't turn 00 agents into cannon fodder or red shirts. That is all.

    Exactly. We don't need anything like that. Double-O agents are the cream of the crop and so shouldn't be killed off at the drop of a hat. Sadly, this is often what has happened to them when they have appeared in the Bond films.

    The death of a 00 should be extremely rare and has a huge impact. In OP it worked. In AVTAK it started being repetitive and in spite of TLDs qualities they seemed to be dying like flies.

    I think 00 agents should be briefly seen and mentioned. That's it.
  • Posts: 2,402
    What I would adore some sort of explanation or clarification of in the deeper mythos of the series is this (and I touched upon this point before in my idea for a Bond film): what would we call an agent who has one of the two kills required to be 00? Would they still just be a regular operative? Would there be any sort of citation or distinction awarded to them for their one kill?
  • But why is it wrong to reuse Arnold's James Bond theme? It is a very good arrangement. Monty Norman's was used prominently in the Connery days.
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