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Military Coup d'Etat in Turkey [01:40 PM: Military Coup failed, 265 deaths]

Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
edited July 2016 in General Discussion Posts: 11,119
This just came in:

http://nos.nl/artikel/2117873-turkse-premier-militaire-staatsgreep-aan-de-gang.html

Apparently, Prime Minister Yildirim just said in a short press statement that the Turkish Military is executing a Coup d'Etat.

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Comments

  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    If it is true we can only pray they are successful and Erdogan is history.

    If it doesn't succeed Erdogan will finally turn Turkey into a dictatorship and will have the justification for it and will be more powerful than ever and rule for decades.

    I really hope the military knows what they're doing. This could be a turning point in Europe's history for the worst if Erdogan survives this coup d'Etat.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    In all honesty......I think if the Turkish Military succeeds, it's actually a good thing for the continent Europe and more of a bad thing for Russia.

    People underestimate the influence Kemal Atatürk had on Turkish society. And Erdogan seems to destroy his accomplishments in rapid pace. One of those things is the strict seculiar and democratic character of the nation that Atatürk envisioned....even after elections have taken place. And Erdogan seemed adament in the past years to actually destroy that and to bring Islam back much heavier on the political foregrond.

    Also, under Erdogan terrorism, especially from Kurdish PPK, has increased rapidly. He seems to be an escalating force, not a de-escalating one.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Worring times all the same.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The Turkish military is playing with our future, right now. I'm not sure this gamble is worth the risk.
    If Erdogan survives this politically, his wrath will be devastating and it will be felt across Europe. He may just be the most dangerous man on this continent.
    And the weak EU government will as usual do nothing in the name of "diplomacy".
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Erdogan had it coming.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    edited July 2016 Posts: 11,119
    It is damn serious now. All broadcasters, like TRT and CNN-Türk, are now black. Military is now in control of these offices. Also Erdogan's party office from AKP is now occupied. Ankara and Istanbul are now more or less in control of the military.

    But: It seems that the Turkish military and Turkish police are now fighting with each other. Gunfire and low flying F16's, tanks and helicopters are heard, in both Istanbul and Ankara.

    Also, national airliners, like Dutch KLM and British Airways, have now been instructed to avoid Turkish airspace. Turkish borders are all closed now.

    A new message on the website of the Turkish Military now says:
    We respect all religions, beliefs and ethnicities. We are here to restore rule of law.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    It seems now that the Turkish military is in more and more control of important, strategic places in Turkey. As I see it here, Erdogan is losing.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,406
    He is in a secure location, I hear. And he has told people to take to the streets.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Using them as human shields.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Erdogan calls for protests, but I think this picture kind of sells his fate:
    Cnb6I2oWgAAP9ML.jpg
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    So Erdogan rather have a civil war in Turkey than give up power, figures.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,406
    Can't believe BBC News showing live coverage of people getting shot at on the bridge. Apparently civilians are taking back control in some areas.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I'm not sure what exactly brought this coup d'etat on, but it's indeed very troubling. I wonder if his recent rapprochements had something to do with it, and I wonder too if it's being fermented by others, like what happened in Egypt.

    I'm looking forward to more details, but I hope this is as peaceful as can be in the circumstances.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    Erdogan is a dangerous man, we can only hope that if this coup works they take him out of the equation.
    Otherwise the Turkish situation will build up to be another powder keg we were not waiting for.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,406
    BBC isn't flinching. They continue to show live coverage of people getting shot on the bridge.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    It seems that the Turkish military, who initiated the coup d'etat, have been underestimating social media a bit. Erdogan's message to go on the streets and massively protests seem to work....at least for now. And they create the gunfire. I find this totally irresponsible from Erdogan, but let's see how the Military reacts.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Bad play by the military to shoot its citizens.

    Watch for the US/EU reaction, particularly when citizens are being killed. That will give us a clue as to what caused this.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    edited July 2016 Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    Bad play by the military to shoot its citizens.

    Watch for the US/EU reaction, particularly when citizens are being killed. That will give us a clue as to what caused this.

    Apparently they did NOT shoot the people, but they all shot in the air.

    But, I do think the Military underestimated the current autocratic power now, and it seems the coup won't be as swift as we thought earlier tonight.

    What I'm worried about is when Erdogan actually gains back full power -if the Military fails-. Then we should be more fearful for an even angrier, even more autocratic Erdogan.

    Let's not forget that in the past months Erdogan managed to change the Constitution, effectively turning him into a dictator.

    Things get blurry during these coups. One side -the Military- claims that they want to bring down an autocratic leader so that real democracy can be reinstated. And the other side actually claims that they have been chosen fairly by the very instruments of democracy.

    This now gets nasty. I was hoping for a swift, clean Coup, like in 1981 in Turkey. Ughh, I am going to bed. Planet Earth kinda sucks lately :(
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    This is a lose-lose situation for Europe. This may be the darkest day in our lifetime. It may throw Europe into chaos.
    Turkey is in NATO and it is the most important military base for the US and Germany.
    Erdogan, if he survives this politically, will abandon the constitution and make Turkey his kingdom and rule it like a dictator and the silly weak EU will do nothing to stop him.
    If there is a civil war in Turkey it will destabilize Europe and we all know the EU government is incompetent and weak and it will do nothing.

    In the end it will be the US who, once again, will restore order in Europe. I hope so anyway.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,127
    And this is the country Merkel and Cameron wanted to fast track into the EU. With the wannabe dictator Erdogan at its head. I wonder what the excuse will be this time.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    There are a lot of people in the streets, ostensibly in support of Erdogan. If he has the support of even a small fraction of the people (and it looks like he has much more than that from what I am seeing on tv), then the coup cannot succeed ultimately, and it should not succeed. They will have to find another way.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And this is the country Merkel and Cameron wanted to fast track into the EU. With the wannabe dictator Erdogan at its head. I wonder what the excuse will be this time.

    Democracy? No matter what you say, Erdoğan was democratically elected. Similar to how the British voted democratically for Brexit.

    I think it's absolutely unheard of that we are starting to blame others. This coup is entirely an internal affair. And I think we should foremost criticise Turkey first and how the leaders in the past years created so much divisiveness and oppression.

    By the way, it does seem that the coup is showing cracks. Part of the military are giving up and start siding with Erdogan.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Fierce and violent demonstrations near the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam, Netherlands. Apparently the Turkish minority in Rotterdam, who mostly, 70%, voted for Erdogan during last elections, used violence against Dutch public broadcaster. They screamed "Prime Minister Rutte, support Erdogan!!" The Turkish minority seems to be fairly anti-West.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    The Turkish minority seems to be fairly anti-West.

    They probably need us to just redistribute the wealth a bit more evenly and bend over backwards to allow them to integrate. That should sort it and cheer them up.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    I think today is the day that democracy in Turkey is loosing. Not just becausenthe very nature of a coup is undemocratic. But also because Erdogan himself will now in a much faster rate become a dictator. Erdogan is already victimized himself, by saying that the coup organizers are all members of the Gulden movement.

    On top of that, Erdogan entirely escalated this, by asking his supporters to execute a massive revolt. How can you....put your own people in the line of fire like this. Now there are.....70 deaths because of this.

    Life in Turkey will have become more tense, more divided, more fearful, and Erdogan will exploit that. This is a very very bad day for the Turkish Atatürk movement, and especially for the Turkish democracy.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    The Turkish minority seems to be fairly anti-West.

    They probably need us to just redistribute the wealth a bit more evenly and bend over backwards to allow them to integrate. That should sort it and cheer them up.

    What a nonsense remark. Those very same Turkish minority in The Netherlands are one of the best integrated minority groups in our country. They mostly speak fluently Dutch, and have fairly prosperous lifes.

    The thing I do hate is the fact how Erdogan seems able to stir up so much Turkish nationalism. National leaders need to address this more firmly. Erdogan's power need to stop outside Turkey's borders.

    By the way, I find your remark rather distasteful. Using some of my previous remarks from other topics and re-use them in here by falsify facts. This problem in Turkey has nothing, nothing to do with the lack of national governments to integrate minorities better. This coup however has everything to do with how divided the nation Turkey is and how reckless Erdogan's power has become. And make no mistake, I have always been a staunch criticizer of Erdogan and how narcist, powerhunger slowly turned him into a dictator.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,127
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And this is the country Merkel and Cameron wanted to fast track into the EU. With the wannabe dictator Erdogan at its head. I wonder what the excuse will be this time.

    Democracy? No matter what you say, Erdoğan was democratically elected. Similar to how the British voted democratically for Brexit.

    I think it's absolutely unheard of that we are starting to blame others. This coup is entirely an internal affair. And I think we should foremost criticise Turkey first and how the leaders in the past years created so much divisiveness and oppression.

    By the way, it does seem that the coup is showing cracks. Part of the military are giving up and start siding with Erdogan.

    I know he was democratically elected and don't think he should be overthrown by force. He's also an Islamist and an authoritarian. I'm not saying the coup d'etat is right. I'm saying Erdogan and Turkey hardly have an exemplary record on democracy. His attack on a German comedian was nothing short of disgusting. So while I'm against the coup d'etat I'm not going to cry over Erdogan. And I'll add that the instability of the country, the autocratic tendencies of its leader and the fact that he's against secularism makes it unfit to be part of the EU.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And this is the country Merkel and Cameron wanted to fast track into the EU. With the wannabe dictator Erdogan at its head. I wonder what the excuse will be this time.

    Democracy? No matter what you say, Erdoğan was democratically elected. Similar to how the British voted democratically for Brexit.

    I think it's absolutely unheard of that we are starting to blame others. This coup is entirely an internal affair. And I think we should foremost criticise Turkey first and how the leaders in the past years created so much divisiveness and oppression.

    By the way, it does seem that the coup is showing cracks. Part of the military are giving up and start siding with Erdogan.

    I know he was democratically elected and don't think he should be overthrown by force. He's also an Islamist and an authoritarian. I'm not saying the coup d'etat is right. I'm saying Erdogan and Turkey hardly have an exemplary record on democracy. His attack on a German comedian was nothing short of disgusting. So while I'm against the coup d'etat I'm not going to cry over Erdogan. And I'll add that the instability of the country, the autocratic tendencies of its leader and the fact that he's against secularism makes it unfit to be part of the EU.

    Ooowh, and that I fully agree. Fully! But there's one thing that worries me though. Too many times people, the UK government, more or less falsely implied that Turkey would become a member of the EU. Let's not forget that treaties need to be made in order to at least tackle the immigrant crisis a little bit, and make sure Europe doesn't get flooded by refugees in an uncontrolled manner.

    This is how planet Earth looks like this day. There are still many autocracies and dictatorships in today's world. But do we really give up all trade, all diplomacy with China because the country despises human freedom and human rights? No. Because we're all in this together.

    Still, I agree with you @Ludovico. Erdogan is a dangerous man. And as of today he's even more dangerous.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,127
    If Turkey becoming a member of the EU was a at best a long term possibility then why did Cameron wanted to fast track it? Why did he refuse to say if he would use his veto should it come to it? But yes Erdogan is an evil and dangerous man.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The military has gambled with the fate of Europe last night. And it has lost.

    This will have grave consequences for all of us in Europe. Erdogan will lose no time and establish a dictatorship now. He'll adapt the constitution so he can rule forever, the media will be 100% in his control. Opposition will finally be extinguished completely.
    Erdogan will rule with unprecedented power.

    Future held elections will be a farce and he'll be elected with overwhelming majority as all dictators are that are holding alibi elections.

    We now will have the most dangerous man of our lifetime ruling one of the biggest countries on European ground.

    And the EU will do absolutely nothing. They even will support him now as can be already seen in various reactions of politicians.
    The US will do nothing because they need the military base in Turkey.

    This is the best thing that could have happened for Erdogan.
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