Does Spectre actually make any sense?

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  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    @TheWizardOfIce

    We probably all don't know exactly what the real value of the ATAC was. I personally never really undestood how the device worked and why this item that looks like a futuristic typewriter from the 70s could ever be so important but the final sequence when Bond destroys the ATAC and says to Gogol "That's detente, comrade; You* don't have it, I don't have it." really shows that this device has an enormous value not only for the Russians but also for the Western Countries. Especially when Gogol start laughing and being OK with this scenario. Further, if the ATAC was of no value for the MI6, why did Bond not destroy it but took it out of the sea?

    Hence I think Bond and Kristatos faced the three scenarios:

    Best scenario: I have the ATAC
    Second best scenario: Nobody has the ATAC
    Worst scenario: My enemy has the ATAC
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    And who was feeding Max after Havelock died?
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    suavejmf wrote: »
    In reality (FYEO reality that is) the British Navy should have just sent British submarines to locate the St Georges in the area it sank 9with or without permission). Leaving Bond the sole mission of finding out who hired Gozales.

    I am not an expert on the topic but as far as I know you cannot locate a sunk ship with a standard military submarine so very easily.

    Archologist who are trying to detect sunk ships usualy have a mother ship and a small sub. However since the mother ship cannot operate secretely they have to use an undercover agent. Havelock, a well known archeologist working in the region for years, is actually a perfect cover for searching the spy ship.

    It also would be a risk using a British sub marine which has no legitimacy to operate in this area. If it was detected it would have also been a big scandal.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    Well said @DRush76 =D> some people, really do need to be spoon fed. I don't know how
    They'd get to grips with complicated movies! :))

    It's amazing how some members NEVER post any positive comments on the film, always
    Finding faults, then many of the same names jumping on to back up the original post. Very
    Odd behaviour, for "lovers" of the films. :)) But I guess the love of knocking the movies is
    A form of "Fandom"

    Yes, Bond fans on here at least tend to be Bond's strongest critics. Now whether that's good or bad or warranted or not I don't want to speculate ...I'm guilty too. However the constant negativity does tend to zap my enthusiasm and appreciation of all things Bond.

    We nag more than my ex wife.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    GBF wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce

    We probably all don't know exactly what the real value of the ATAC was. I personally never really undestood how the device worked and why this item that looks like a futuristic typewriter from the 70s could ever be so important but the final sequence when Bond destroys the ATAC and says to Gogol "That's detente, comrade; You* don't have it, I don't have it." really shows that this device has an enormous value not only for the Russians but also for the Western Countries. Especially when Gogol start laughing and being OK with this scenario. Further, if the ATAC was of no value for the MI6, why did Bond not destroy it but took it out of the sea?

    Hence I think Bond and Kristatos faced the three scenarios:

    Best scenario: I have the ATAC
    Second best scenario: Nobody has the ATAC
    Worst scenario: My enemy has the ATAC

    Presumably it is supposed to be the UK equivalent of the nuclear football.

    The point is that the British don't need it (hence Mac trying to blow it up at the start) but it would be a huge coup if the Russians got hold of it.

    No idea why Bond felt the need to retrieve it except Melina might have got stroppy if he set off a bomb next to all those ruins.

    Your scenarios fail to take into account that the British already have it. This is not the only ATAC there are dozens on submarines and ships and at naval bases.

    Thus for the British 'My enemy has the ATAC' is the only scenario that matters. If they have it themselves or no one has it that's fine with them.

    The Russians on the other hand don't have it and no one having it all doesn't help them.

    It's the difference between being in posession of the Ashes or Ryder Cup and only needing to draw while the other side have to win to claim the trophy.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I agree that this plot point is not developed well. They probably tried to convince us by saying: This is the ATAC, our latest super computer and we only have one of them. It might however be that there was some kind of data on it which was essential for the British Navy nut I agree it is absolutely not clear why Bond did not simply destroy the ATAC.

    I still think that these inconsistencies are minor to others in the frachise. For the biggest part of the film, the motivations and the behaviour of the characters are quiet feasibel. This cannot be said for many Bond films.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    NicNac wrote: »
    And who was feeding Max after Havelock died?

    He was taken in by MI6, in their Bladen safe house. ;)

  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    That could make for a great short story.
  • royale65 wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    And who was feeding Max after Havelock died?

    He was taken in by MI6, in their Bladen safe house. ;)

    He means between Havelocks murder & Melina and Bonds belated arrival.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Psst, I know.

    Max had plenty of nuts floating around his cabin. There.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    royale65 wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    And who was feeding Max after Havelock died?

    He was taken in by MI6, in their Bladen safe house. ;)

    He means between Havelocks murder & Melina and Bonds belated arrival.

    Remember Melina says 'Pistachios for Max' and then goes into the cabin.

    If we assume that while Gonzalez was turning round she put them into a feeder with some sort of delay mechanism that stops him eating them all at once then his survival is reasonably credible as long as his water was topped up to the brim.

    I also like the idea that at the end of FYEO there's a conversation along these lines:

    Bond: What are you going to do with Max?

    Melina: I hate the bloody thing. Was planning to put him in a sack with a brick and sling him over the side.

    Bond: I can't let you do that. I'm from Britain where we consider cruelty to animals worse than cruelty to humans. Tell you what - I know a chef at a place called Blayden. I happen to know he loves parrots (despite the fact having a live animal in your kitchen surely rides roughshod over basic food hygene laws). I'm sure he'd love to take him.

    Melina: Fine. I really couldn't care less. Look I'm stood here starkers and waiting for that moonlight swim. Are you coming in or not?
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    That'll do for me! (Better than the Thatcher travesty tbh)
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 676
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Yeah the plot is a bit thin - but the real drama is in the relationship between Kristatos and Columbo - just as in Skyfall the MacGuffin of the list isn't the main plot beat, it just sets things going - the real plot is the relationships between Bond, Silva and M.
    FYEO's plot is very thin. So is the script. It's almost non-stop action sequences. The difference between FYEO and Skyfall is that the relationship drama in the latter is actually interesting. All Kristatos and Columbo do is talk trash about each other like children trying to convince their mother that the other one started it. When Columbo sticks a knife in Kristatos, I don't care one bit.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    I feel the same way about most of the humour in Moonraker.

    And seen as it's you @Birdleson :P
  • Milovy wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Yeah the plot is a bit thin - but the real drama is in the relationship between Kristatos and Columbo - just as in Skyfall the MacGuffin of the list isn't the main plot beat, it just sets things going - the real plot is the relationships between Bond, Silva and M.
    FYEO's plot is very thin. So is the script. It's almost non-stop action sequences. The difference between FYEO and Skyfall is that the relationship drama in the latter is actually interesting. All Kristatos and Columbo do is talk trash about each other like children trying to convince their mother that the other one started it. When Columbo sticks a knife in Kristatos, I don't care one bit.

    I wish it was Melina who stuck her arrow in Kristatos that would've been better.
  • MansfieldMansfield Where the hell have you been?
    Posts: 1,263
    I don't view FYEO as the serious adventure that it seems to have a reputation for. My perspective on it is that it is a soft joy ride. The action is some of the best in the franchise with the exception of Roger doing the stair climber, which is luckily bookended by fantastic action. The great thing about it is that it doesn't take itself too seriously in either a dramatic or self-parodying type of way. For that reason, it's pretty hard to be overly critical of it let alone consider ranking it in low esteem. It's solidly in my 6-10 range, but will sometimes dip just below that mark. Honestly, my only disappointment is probably that this is the first one where Roger really starts to show his age for me, when it should have been made for 1979.
  • Mansfield wrote: »
    I don't view FYEO as the serious adventure that it seems to have a reputation for. My perspective on it is that it is a soft joy ride. The action is some of the best in the franchise with the exception of Roger doing the stair climber, which is luckily bookended by fantastic action. The great thing about it is that it doesn't take itself too seriously in either a dramatic or self-parodying type of way. For that reason, it's pretty hard to be overly critical of it let alone consider ranking it in low esteem. It's solidly in my 6-10 range, but will sometimes dip just below that mark. Honestly, my only disappointment is probably that this is the first one where Roger really starts to show his age for me, when it should have been made for 1979.

    That part is unintentionally hilarious to me because he is just so slow!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Just a bit of trivia, Sir Roger always had a double do his running sequences, ;)
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I personally cannot undestand why people call FYEO's plot thin. I mean it definately has a much richer plot than many Bond films which also often happen to be very similar. (A cruel organisation - i.e. SPECTRE - steals some weapon to blackmail (or destroy) the world). I have never minded that but it is just unfair to criticise FYEO for having a thin plot. It is also one of the few Bond films where it is not directly clear who is actually the villain and who is the ally. I also feel that the Melina's revenge plot is far better written than in other movies (QoS).
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    We are thinking of developing this thread to encompass all the Bond films, inserting a new film every week.
    So, next week it could be 'Does DR NO Make Any Sense'? And we can have some good humoured discussion about the merits of the plots, story development, casting etc for each film.
    Of course FRWL may get off extremely lightly, and there aren't enough hours in the day for some members to 'discuss' Skyfall, but hey ho.

    Does this sound like a good idea while we wile away the days waiting for B25 information?
  • TokolosheTokoloshe Under your bed
    Posts: 2,667
    Yes that sounds like a good thread.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    NicNac wrote: »
    We are thinking of developing this thread to encompass all the Bond films, inserting a new film every week.
    So, next week it could be 'Does DR NO Make Any Sense'? And we can have some good humoured discussion about the merits of the plots, story development, casting etc for each film.
    Of course FRWL may get off extremely lightly, and there aren't enough hours in the day for some members to 'discuss' Skyfall, but hey ho.

    Does this sound like a good idea while we wile away the days waiting for B25 information?

    Fair enough.

    And don't assume FRWL is going to get off as lightly as all that!
  • NicNac wrote: »
    We are thinking of developing this thread to encompass all the Bond films, inserting a new film every week.
    So, next week it could be 'Does DR NO Make Any Sense'? And we can have some good humoured discussion about the merits of the plots, story development, casting etc for each film.
    Of course FRWL may get off extremely lightly, and there aren't enough hours in the day for some members to 'discuss' Skyfall, but hey ho.

    Does this sound like a good idea while we wile away the days waiting for B25 information?

    I think that's a fine idea, but give us a little more time with this one please. No one has even mentioned Bibi Dahl yet, so I think there's room for more discussion here...
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    NicNac wrote: »
    We are thinking of developing this thread to encompass all the Bond films, inserting a new film every week.
    So, next week it could be 'Does DR NO Make Any Sense'? And we can have some good humoured discussion about the merits of the plots, story development, casting etc for each film.
    Of course FRWL may get off extremely lightly, and there aren't enough hours in the day for some members to 'discuss' Skyfall, but hey ho.

    Does this sound like a good idea while we wile away the days waiting for B25 information?

    I think that's a fine idea, but give us a little more time with this one please. No one has even mentioned Bibi Dahl yet, so I think there's room for more discussion here...

    That is absolutely true. Imo she is the worst element of the film. I have always wondered what the hell is she doing in that film. Maybe one can justify her by being a reason for Kristatos to stay in Cortina so that we get those great action scenes there. Otherwise, it would have been very strange why Loque would even go there.
  • Posts: 7,653
    She is an anchor to tie the story to a certain place and they have the grace to actually give her an end to her participation in FYEO.
  • Posts: 4,615
    I think we could do another thread, "which Bond movie makes the most sense?"
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    GBF wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    We are thinking of developing this thread to encompass all the Bond films, inserting a new film every week.
    So, next week it could be 'Does DR NO Make Any Sense'? And we can have some good humoured discussion about the merits of the plots, story development, casting etc for each film.
    Of course FRWL may get off extremely lightly, and there aren't enough hours in the day for some members to 'discuss' Skyfall, but hey ho.

    Does this sound like a good idea while we wile away the days waiting for B25 information?

    I think that's a fine idea, but give us a little more time with this one please. No one has even mentioned Bibi Dahl yet, so I think there's room for more discussion here...

    That is absolutely true. Imo she is the worst element of the film. I have always wondered what the hell is she doing in that film. Maybe one can justify her by being a reason for Kristatos to stay in Cortina so that we get those great action scenes there. Otherwise, it would have been very strange why Loque would even go there.

    Let's not get sidetracked into just a standard 'slagging off aspects of the films we don't like'. My interpretation of this thread is it examines gaps in the logic of the plot construction and character motivations.

    Yes by all sane measures of scriptwriting Bibi should be nowhere near a Bond film. However her inclusion, objectionable though it is, does not seem to impinge on the logic of the story. She has pretty much zero relevance at all in fact, except to hint that Kristatos is a dirty old man; although does his impassioned 'The day she wins the gold medal will be the greatest in my life' speech hint that maybe he is only interested in the skating? Perhaps as part of his deal with the Russians for the ATAC involved nobbling the judges in the 1984 Olympics?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    NicNac wrote: »
    We are thinking of developing this thread to encompass all the Bond films, inserting a new film every week.
    So, next week it could be 'Does DR NO Make Any Sense'? And we can have some good humoured discussion about the merits of the plots, story development, casting etc for each film.
    Of course FRWL may get off extremely lightly, and there aren't enough hours in the day for some members to 'discuss' Skyfall, but hey ho.

    Does this sound like a good idea while we wile away the days waiting for B25 information?

    I think that's a fine idea, but give us a little more time with this one please. No one has even mentioned Bibi Dahl yet, so I think there's room for more discussion here...

    Yes, this one has been up for only 2 days, so we will leave it a week before a change. We won't necessarily progress in anything other than a random order, so nearer to next Monday people can suggest the next film.

    And Wiz is right, this is not a slagging off thread, more a way to delve into the films and discuss the logic of character motivation, casting, plot progression or whatever.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited August 2016 Posts: 9,117
    NicNac wrote: »
    more a way to delve into the films and discuss the logic of character motivation, casting, plot progression or whatever.

    Are we really going to go into casting here? I could do 6 hours on Halle Berry and several months on hapless old Rory which, whilst always enjoyable, I'm not sure would be particularly illuminating.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    GBF wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    We are thinking of developing this thread to encompass all the Bond films, inserting a new film every week.
    So, next week it could be 'Does DR NO Make Any Sense'? And we can have some good humoured discussion about the merits of the plots, story development, casting etc for each film.
    Of course FRWL may get off extremely lightly, and there aren't enough hours in the day for some members to 'discuss' Skyfall, but hey ho.

    Does this sound like a good idea while we wile away the days waiting for B25 information?

    I think that's a fine idea, but give us a little more time with this one please. No one has even mentioned Bibi Dahl yet, so I think there's room for more discussion here...

    That is absolutely true. Imo she is the worst element of the film. I have always wondered what the hell is she doing in that film. Maybe one can justify her by being a reason for Kristatos to stay in Cortina so that we get those great action scenes there. Otherwise, it would have been very strange why Loque would even go there.

    Let's not get sidetracked into just a standard 'slagging off aspects of the films we don't like'. My interpretation of this thread is it examines gaps in the logic of the plot construction and character motivations.

    Yes by all sane measures of scriptwriting Bibi should be nowhere near a Bond film. However her inclusion, objectionable though it is, does not seem to impinge on the logic of the story. She has pretty much zero relevance at all in fact, except to hint that Kristatos is a dirty old man; although does his impassioned 'The day she wins the gold medal will be the greatest in my life' speech hint that maybe he is only interested in the skating? Perhaps as part of his deal with the Russians for the ATAC involved nobbling the judges in the 1984 Olympics?

    Agree. She is not essential to the plot but therefore also does not harm it.
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