Does Spectre actually make any sense?

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  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Bibi adds to the depth of the film without necessarily adding to the plot.

    Isn't it famously said that nothing in Raiders Of the Lost Ark would have happened differently plot-wise if Indiana Jones had been taken out of the film?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    NicNac wrote: »
    Bibi adds to the depth of the film


    Jesus Christ.

    Expect to see that quote on your gravestone old chap!
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    :))
    OK, yes, depth wasn't a good choice of words.
    I liked the idea of the Bibi character, adding ....an angle? ..to proceedings. A legitimate cover for Kristatos to carry on his shenanigans.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Well, Bibi does humanize both Bond and Kristatos, so there's that.
  • @Royale65 is starting to get to the point of Bibi's inclusion in this film.

    One of Q's favorite sayings is, "Oh, grow up 007." FYEO is the film in which Bond finally does act like an adult, rather than the male fantasy projection he has usually been for so many decades. Bibi is there specifically so that Roger Moore's Bond (old enough to be her father and then some) can buy her an ice cream rather than shagging her as most of the males in the audience desperately want him to do. The fact that he doesn't although she's perfectly willing to have a go with him, frustrates some of us terribly, and we take it out on her by despising the character. Honest, folks, she's there for a reason.

    FYEO makes complete emotional sense in its context. After Moonraker, it was felt that Bond needed a more "down-to-Earth," realistic (well, as realistic as Bond gets anyway) adventure. FYEO was constructed entirely with that goal in mind. We begin with a shot of Bond at the grave of his late wife. This is one of the rare instances where we actually see Bond acknowledging the consequences of the life he leads. People die and are mourned. And yes, in Bond's world they are avenged...and so, Blofeld. We could have simply assumed that he had died at the close of DAF...but come on, in this type of story, if you don't see the body you can be sure they aren't really dead. This time he's dead for sure. You may or may not feel like it was a proper death, but it was the only one Cubby Broccoli was willing to give Kevin McClory. A delicatessen in stainless steel, Kevin. Take it or leave it, it's the last thing you're gonna get from us.

    Then we have Melina and her quest for revenge on the killer of her parents. This plotline is the emotional core of this film, and it's direct from the Fleming short story that gives us the title for this film. Bond, who is a killer many times over, knows the emotional and spiritual effect that the act of killing has on the human psyche -- and he wants to spare Melina from suffering the same scars he has learned to bear. This is why he tells her the parable of digging the two graves, and this is why it's better for the story to have Columbo kill Kristatos rather than letting Melina perform the fatal deed. Of course, she did kill Gonzales, so her hands aren't entirely clean...

    But the point being, this is a Bond film with a more adult sensibility regarding violence and its consequences, as well as the complexities of international relationships. While this thread has been quite clear on the discussion of "detante, comrade," I felt it important that we note the emotional dimensions of this film as well. Bibi Dahl in particular has never been given her due by the fan community. I detested her just as much as most of you in my initial viewing of this film, but as time has passed I've gained a new appreciation for her role in this, my favorite Roger Moore outing as 007.
  • Posts: 4,044
    Gerard wrote: »
    vzok wrote: »
    This is the same type of plot loop that happens in TMWTGG. Bond chases off to search for a golden bullet, when he has just been sent a golden bullet.

    No, what MI6 was sent was not one of the Golden Bullets Scaramanga uses. They were sent a fake. What they needed was a real bulet, as used by Scaramanga.. It's obvious that what they received was a bigger caliber, for starters.

    How was it a fake? I thought Andrea had sent it (from Scaramanga's stock).
  • Posts: 5,993
    It was a fake because Scaramanga knows exactly how many bullets he have (let's remember his gun shoots only once), and would notice if there was one missing from his stock (and he doesn't receive many from Lazar to start with - a few in a cigarette pack, at most). Second, the bullets themselves are smaller than a .22 (.165, or in metric 4.2 mm). The golden bullet sent by Andrea is at least a 9 mm (.380 ACP). Plus, there's the composition of gold in the real bullet, which can be used to trace the origin of the gold used. So it's easy to infer that Andrea sent Bond a fake bullet, in order to put him on Scaramanga's trail. But in order to pick said trail, Bond had to et a bullet really used by Scaramanga himself, not the prop used by Andrea as a warning card.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    @Royale65 is starting to get to the point of Bibi's inclusion in this film.

    One of Q's favorite sayings is, "Oh, grow up 007." FYEO is the film in which Bond finally does act like an adult, rather than the male fantasy projection he has usually been for so many decades. Bibi is there specifically so that Roger Moore's Bond (old enough to be her father and then some) can buy her an ice cream rather than shagging her as most of the males in the audience desperately want him to do. The fact that he doesn't although she's perfectly willing to have a go with him, frustrates some of us terribly, and we take it out on her by despising the character. Honest, folks, she's there for a reason.

    FYEO makes complete emotional sense in its context. After Moonraker, it was felt that Bond needed a more "down-to-Earth," realistic (well, as realistic as Bond gets anyway) adventure. FYEO was constructed entirely with that goal in mind. We begin with a shot of Bond at the grave of his late wife. This is one of the rare instances where we actually see Bond acknowledging the consequences of the life he leads. People die and are mourned. And yes, in Bond's world they are avenged...and so, Blofeld. We could have simply assumed that he had died at the close of DAF...but come on, in this type of story, if you don't see the body you can be sure they aren't really dead. This time he's dead for sure. You may or may not feel like it was a proper death, but it was the only one Cubby Broccoli was willing to give Kevin McClory. A delicatessen in stainless steel, Kevin. Take it or leave it, it's the last thing you're gonna get from us.

    Then we have Melina and her quest for revenge on the killer of her parents. This plotline is the emotional core of this film, and it's direct from the Fleming short story that gives us the title for this film. Bond, who is a killer many times over, knows the emotional and spiritual effect that the act of killing has on the human psyche -- and he wants to spare Melina from suffering the same scars he has learned to bear. This is why he tells her the parable of digging the two graves, and this is why it's better for the story to have Columbo kill Kristatos rather than letting Melina perform the fatal deed. Of course, she did kill Gonzales, so her hands aren't entirely clean...

    But the point being, this is a Bond film with a more adult sensibility regarding violence and its consequences, as well as the complexities of international relationships. While this thread has been quite clear on the discussion of "detante, comrade," I felt it important that we note the emotional dimensions of this film as well. Bibi Dahl in particular has never been given her due by the fan community. I detested her just as much as most of you in my initial viewing of this film, but as time has passed I've gained a new appreciation for her role in this, my favorite Roger Moore outing as 007.

    An impassioned defence of Bibi! I've heard it all now.

    What you say about Bond acting with maturity might have some credence here but it doesn't seem to bother him a few films later with Stacey where the age gap is similarly cringeworthy (although he does wait until the end rather than jumping on her after she's stuffed full of quiche and wine).

  • edited August 2016 Posts: 3,566
    A few films later is a couple of universes away if that's the way Eon wants it. They've always played fast & loose with continuity. Just a few films away from OHMSS is TMWTGG. Just a couple of films away from DAD is QoS. I think the issue with Bibi is that supposedly her character is under the age of consent (although certainly not by much!) --while Stacey is clearly an adult although oooh, James! is old enough to be her grandfather.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    A few films later is a couple of universes away if that's the way Eon wants it. They've always played fast & loose with continuity. Just a few films away from OHMSS is TMWTGG. Just a couple of films away from DAD is QoS. I think the issue with Bibi is that supposedly her character is under the age of consent (although certainly not by much!) --while Stacey is clearly an adult although oooh, James! is old enough to be her grandfather.

    I never got a sense that Bibi was supposed to be actually under age, just too young for Bond.
  • Our perceptions differ then. While the actress was clearly a young adult, my impression was that Bibi was supposed to be underage, and that Jacoba Brink was something of a chaperon as well as being Bibi's trainer.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Well the age gap between Bond and Melina who was 24 at the time was bigger than the age gap between Bond and Stacey who was in her late 20s. However, I think you are right @BeatlesSansEarmuffs that FYEO entered the Mature Bond era when RM as an experienced agent cares more about the vulnerability of a woman than he did in his earlier films. I mean in LALD Bond does not care at all about the consequences for Solitaire or Rosie when he beds them. He also exploits Andreas inconvinient situation in TMWTGG. Corinne Dufour is also not really helped by Bond in Moonraker and left to die a cruel death.

    Post FYEO Bond really seems to care about his Bond girls. This also applies to his allies who all die in the John Glen films.There is also more like a father daughter relationship between Bond and Melina as well as between Bond and Stacey. The final love scenes in these two films are more there for the tradition of the Moore films.







  • Posts: 4,044
    Gerard wrote: »
    It was a fake because Scaramanga knows exactly how many bullets he have (let's remember his gun shoots only once), and would notice if there was one missing from his stock (and he doesn't receive many from Lazar to start with - a few in a cigarette pack, at most). Second, the bullets themselves are smaller than a .22 (.165, or in metric 4.2 mm). The golden bullet sent by Andrea is at least a 9 mm (.380 ACP). Plus, there's the composition of gold in the real bullet, which can be used to trace the origin of the gold used. So it's easy to infer that Andrea sent Bond a fake bullet, in order to put him on Scaramanga's trail. But in order to pick said trail, Bond had to et a bullet really used by Scaramanga himself, not the prop used by Andrea as a warning card.

    I can see that you know the type of bullets involved, but does Bond know the type of bullet Scaramanga actually uses? If Bond knows it is a fake then he'd know it wasn't from Scaramanga and therefore he'd know he wasn't under threat from him.


  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    We can discuss TMWTGG next week if you like, but try to stay with FYEO for now.
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 11,189
    Bare in mind aswell that the Stacey character was meant to be old enough to train AND qualify as a professional geologist. Hence, in the Bond world, she was officially an "adult".

    Presumably, Bibi was about 16-18.
  • Please bear in mind that I'm not saying Bond's acting with maturity in FYEO is something that necessarily carried over into subsequent Moore Bond films. It was thematically appropriate for FYEO. Octopussy was another kettle of cephalopod, and a different look was also appropriate for AVTAK. Eon treats each film as a separate & distinct entity, and while this may drive continuity-minded viewers a little bonkers, I think in the long run it does give the Bond series some much-needed variety.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Quite right BSE. When I was younger I used to drive myself to distraction trying to make sense of the series, trying to find ways to link FRWL to MR so that they felt like the same series of adventures.
    Pointless.
    By the time they re-launched with CR and younger members on here yodelled and howled about time lines I was way past caring about such matters.

    As for Bibi, it's largely that she is supposed to be too young for him as stated many times on here (she acts like a 15 year old but is probably supposed to be 18 or 19) but maybe also Bond is aware that she can be somewhat indiscreet and maybe her 'Uncle' would find out sooner rather than later and that would scupper the help he could offer Bond.
    Besides he has the infinitely older Melina waiting in the wings.
  • Emotionally older, yes -- Bibi is acting throughout the film like a 15-16 year old, while Melina acts, and thinks, and is capable of being treated like, an adult. In "actual" ages, these characters are closer in age to each other (separated by 10 years at the most) than either is to Bond.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    NicNac wrote: »
    Bibi adds to the depth of the film without necessarily adding to the plot.

    Isn't it famously said that nothing in Raiders Of the Lost Ark would have happened differently plot-wise if Indiana Jones had been taken out of the film?

    Er, didn't Indy find the Ark.....and weren't the Nazi's digging in the wrong place..?
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    I think because FYEO is an adaptation of two short stories (FYEO and Risico) it doesn't always gel, but it wasn't a bad attempt by the writers to merge two completely different stories using the ATAC McGuffin.

    Still my favourite Rog film!
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    They were definitely trying to a) ground Bond and b) offer a fairly straightforward action flic for first time director Glen, playing to his strengths.

    Sadly he had the opportunity to offer a punchy twist half way through when Colombo tells Bond the truth about him and Kristatos, and somehow he (Glen) fails to deliver. The scene is almost tossed aside so that we can get on with the warehouse raid sequence.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    NicNac wrote: »
    They were definitely trying to a) ground Bond and b) offer a fairly straightforward action flic for first time director Glen, playing to his strengths.

    Sadly he had the opportunity to offer a punchy twist half way through when Colombo tells Bond the truth about him and Kristatos, and somehow he (Glen) fails to deliver. The scene is almost tossed aside so that we can get on with the warehouse raid sequence.

    I do love Moore's reaction when Colombo points his own Walther at him!
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    NicNac wrote: »
    They were definitely trying to a) ground Bond and b) offer a fairly straightforward action flic for first time director Glen, playing to his strengths.

    Sadly he had the opportunity to offer a punchy twist half way through when Colombo tells Bond the truth about him and Kristatos, and somehow he (Glen) fails to deliver. The scene is almost tossed aside so that we can get on with the warehouse raid sequence.

    I do love Moore's reaction when Colombo points his own Walther at him!

    And the way he refuses to drink with Colombo, but does so anyway within a minute or two. =D> . Moore does play that scene well, although he's very good throughout.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    NicNac wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    They were definitely trying to a) ground Bond and b) offer a fairly straightforward action flic for first time director Glen, playing to his strengths.

    Sadly he had the opportunity to offer a punchy twist half way through when Colombo tells Bond the truth about him and Kristatos, and somehow he (Glen) fails to deliver. The scene is almost tossed aside so that we can get on with the warehouse raid sequence.

    I do love Moore's reaction when Colombo points his own Walther at him!

    And the way he refuses to drink with Colombo, but does so anyway within a minute or two. =D> . Moore does play that scene well, although he's very good throughout.

    Yeah, I think Moore is great in the film. Still a typical Rog 007 but with a tougher edge.

  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    NicNac wrote: »
    They were definitely trying to a) ground Bond and b) offer a fairly straightforward action flic for first time director Glen, playing to his strengths.

    Sadly he had the opportunity to offer a punchy twist half way through when Colombo tells Bond the truth about him and Kristatos, and somehow he (Glen) fails to deliver. The scene is almost tossed aside so that we can get on with the warehouse raid sequence.

    I do love Moore's reaction when Colombo points his own Walther at him!

    It is an interesting twist since it reveals that someone who is supposed to be a villain is actually an ally. Usually it is the other way arund: Elektra, Alec, Boris, Frost, Mitchell.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Well, if anyone has a hankering to discuss the plot of another Bond film (as we are starting to slow down with FYEO) then let me know, and we will change the thread title accordingly.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I think it is a good idea. It would be good to have - as for FYEO - a few controversial statements with regard to the plot of the respective films on which people can debate here.
  • TokolosheTokoloshe Under your bed
    Posts: 2,667
    I agreed with the idea of going through them sequentially starting with DN.
  • Posts: 4,044
    NicNac wrote: »
    Well, if anyone has a hankering to discuss the plot of another Bond film (as we are starting to slow down with FYEO) then let me know, and we will change the thread title accordingly.

    So have we in any way cleared up the FYEO plot?

    Bond is sent to find Gonzales. Understandable as he has killed a British agent. But we don't know what is happening with the ATAC after Sir Timothy is killed.

    Bond is later sent after the ATAC. Why was there a hold up? Clearly if Bond was busy with Gonzalez someone could have looked for the ATAC.

  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    vzok wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    Well, if anyone has a hankering to discuss the plot of another Bond film (as we are starting to slow down with FYEO) then let me know, and we will change the thread title accordingly.

    So have we in any way cleared up the FYEO plot?

    Bond is sent to find Gonzales. Understandable as he has killed a British agent. But we don't know what is happening with the ATAC after Sir Timothy is killed.

    Bond is later sent after the ATAC. Why was there a hold up? Clearly if Bond was busy with Gonzalez someone could have looked for the ATAC.

    Actually MI6 had two options:

    1. Find the ATAC and bring it back to MI6 or destroy it.
    2. Find out who your enemies are and prevent them from getting the ATAC.

    I think they ignored option 1 in the first place because it was just a big task to raise the ATAC , especially since they thought that there were no notes on its locations and it was difficult - as Haveloc's death indicates - to operate secretly in that region.

    Hence it was feasible that Bond's priority was to find out who is behind all that what was going on. His first trail was Gonzales, than Loque and then Columbo. For the MI6 it was not so bad that the ATAC was still hidden on the sea floor. Their main objective was to keep it from falling in the wrong hands.

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