Blofeld : Did you want him to escape from Bond,in the helicopter ? And what next ? (SP)

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  • Posts: 15,106
    Milovy wrote: »
    That's the thing about the brother 'twist'; you could erase it in a couple of lines and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to the rest of the film so if it has no bearing on the relationship between Bond and Blofeld why is it there? Only because every film has to have a personal connection for Bond these days.
    You're right that the idea doesn't matter within the film and should have been removed, but unfortunately the personal connection isn't quite contained to a couple lines. Bond broods on the fact that he knows Oberhauser several times before meeting him. He talks to Moneypenny and Q about it too.

    Even that could easily have been taken out: Bond could have been brooding about the fact that this mysterious chairman of the board knows him, or knows of him. Even the "author of all your pain" line does not need any justification outside Blofeld's involvement, indirectly, in the death of Vesper and M.
  • Posts: 2,914
    Ludovico wrote: »
    This is pretty much how I feel about the whole thing. Bad decision but have to live with it.

    Why, when it can so easily be undone with a bit of dialogue? The Blofeld-brother garbage was a blot on the character, both Fleming's and the cinematic version, and should be wiped out (though I guess I'm in the minority for thinking so!). The solution is relatively simple--Oberhauser pulled a Willard Whyte among the underworld.
    Trying to invent a new Blofeld while retconning the one in SP to Oberhauser would only create more issues.

    If Blofeld returns without Waltz, a new Blofeld will have to be invented anyway. The character was so badly handled in Spectre that he has to be reworked. If the filmmakers want to get the most out of him, he'll have to revert to be being a behind-the-scenes mastermind, and that's best accomplished by putting as much distance between Waltz's campy Blofeld and the new one as possible.
    And it's one aspect of the Blofeld character not the whole character.

    Take away the "sibling rivalry" from Waltz's Blofeld and you don't have much character left.
  • Posts: 676
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Milovy wrote: »
    That's the thing about the brother 'twist'; you could erase it in a couple of lines and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to the rest of the film so if it has no bearing on the relationship between Bond and Blofeld why is it there? Only because every film has to have a personal connection for Bond these days.
    You're right that the idea doesn't matter within the film and should have been removed, but unfortunately the personal connection isn't quite contained to a couple lines. Bond broods on the fact that he knows Oberhauser several times before meeting him. He talks to Moneypenny and Q about it too.

    Even that could easily have been taken out: Bond could have been brooding about the fact that this mysterious chairman of the board knows him, or knows of him. Even the "author of all your pain" line does not need any justification outside Blofeld's involvement, indirectly, in the death of Vesper and M.

    For sure. My point was more that if you want to remove the idea, there's more that needs cutting/reworking than just a couple lines of dialogue (contrary to what some fans claim). The idea is woven throughout the movie, not woven very well or to any great effect, but it's there nonetheless.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Milovy wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Milovy wrote: »
    That's the thing about the brother 'twist'; you could erase it in a couple of lines and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to the rest of the film so if it has no bearing on the relationship between Bond and Blofeld why is it there? Only because every film has to have a personal connection for Bond these days.
    You're right that the idea doesn't matter within the film and should have been removed, but unfortunately the personal connection isn't quite contained to a couple lines. Bond broods on the fact that he knows Oberhauser several times before meeting him. He talks to Moneypenny and Q about it too.

    Even that could easily have been taken out: Bond could have been brooding about the fact that this mysterious chairman of the board knows him, or knows of him. Even the "author of all your pain" line does not need any justification outside Blofeld's involvement, indirectly, in the death of Vesper and M.

    For sure. My point was more that if you want to remove the idea, there's more that needs cutting/reworking than just a couple lines of dialogue (contrary to what some fans claim). The idea is woven throughout the movie, not woven very well or to any great effect, but it's there nonetheless.

    It's hardly woven.

    The scenes with Bond looking through the box of stuff from Skyfall could simply be axed without you even noticing as could the line about Oberhauser in the car to MP and the picture of them on the wall in the crater base. And I don't see Bond brooding once apart from possibly when he's going through the box.

    There's not even a single scene like on the beach in GE which, while hardly Oscar worthy, demonstrates to SP how to make the personal connection to the villain work.

    The other option of course which would've been equally valid would be to have had Oberhauser as the main villain in the Largo mould and kept Blofeld in the shadows. Then you could have kept your shit brother connection and it wouldn't have been nearly as appalling.

    The person who first mooted the idea of blending the two should be barred from ever walking on a Bond set ever again.
  • Posts: 15,106
    @Revelator because this bit of dialogue would come out even more of left field. Now you'd have a man truly named Oberhauser impersonating Blofeld in front of his own staff (or are they in the charade too?), and for what purpose? In SP, Blofeld is built up as this ruthless, utterly evil and cruel leader regardless of his connection with Bond.

    As for recasting Blofeld, it's not like he or indeed every recurring Bond character including Bond himself has never been recast.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 676
    The scenes with Bond looking through the box of stuff from Skyfall could simply be axed without you even noticing as could the line about Oberhauser in the car to MP and the picture of them on the wall in the crater base. And I don't see Bond brooding once apart from possibly when he's going through the box.
    I would say he's brooding when he talks to Q about the subject at the Hoffler Klinik. And okay, not woven, sure. The idea shows up several times, that's all.
  • Posts: 2,914
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Now you'd have a man truly named Oberhauser impersonating Blofeld in front of his own staff (or are they in the charade too?), and for what purpose?

    Spectre is presumably a big organization made of various cells. If it's headed by a rarely seen mastermind, then someone impersonating him, by "revealing" himself as Blofeld and using this fake authority to take over a few cells, is plausible. And the real Blofeld, after an initial fit of pique, might welcome having a decoy to take the fall for him should an operation go wrong, or to take the authorities' attention away from the real Blofeld. Perhaps Oberhauser was even intentionally set up to fall, to draw the heat away from Blofeld and get rid of a deranged member. None of that strikes me as anything crazier than the plotting in the last few Bond films.
    In SP, Blofeld is built up as this ruthless, utterly evil and cruel leader regardless of his connection with Bond.

    Which still isn't much in the way of characterization. Have there been any Bond villains who weren't ruthless, utterly evil and cruel?
    As for recasting Blofeld, it's not like he or indeed every recurring Bond character including Bond himself has never been recast.

    Sure, but recasting a character from one film to the next would raise eyebrows more than in the 60s. But as I stated previously, I'm guessing Blofeld won't appear in the next film, and by the time he's reused, enough time will have passed for a recasting to seem normal.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    If you make Blofeld a codename, why not throw Bond into that stupid mix as well?
  • Posts: 2,914
    If you make Blofeld a codename, why not throw Bond into that stupid mix as well?

    Having Oberhauser masquerade as Blofeld doesn't make "Blofeld" a code name if there is a real Blofeld whose own name isn't a code. It just invalidates Oberhauser's identification as Blofeld, which felt tacked on in the film anyway.
    The Bond code name nonsense only appeals to people who can't grapple with the idea that all of Bond's adventures happened to a single character. Making Oberhauser a fake invalidates only his claim to Blofeld, which was pretty tenuous to begin with, since he had little in common with the film or literary Blofeld, besides some cliched props.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Problem is you'd still have Oberhauser linked to Bond and a villain, only then he'd be a fake one and one that can fool the high ranking members of the organisation. It was pretty well established that Waltz's character is the big bad, not a ersatz, hence my comment about him being already established as this terrible figure.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Think it would probably be best for them to just stop digging.

    Retconning Oberhauser so that he was pretending to be Blofeld is just like pouring water on the chip fire that is the whole mess; 'It'll take your face off.'

    I think it would be roundly ridiculed.

    If they want to distance themselves from the whole disaster then the best thing is to just ignore Blofeld completely and only bring him back in about B27.

    The whole brothergate thing is a bit like Brexit (Bloexit? Oberexit? Broexit?). One very misguided decision by someone in charge has led us to a total clusterf-bomb of a situation with no viable solution and every option rather undesirable. And I have to say EON bear more than a passing resemblance to May's government at the moment - bumbling along without the faintest idea of how to extricate themselves from this mess of their own making.

    Still at least the spectre of Kevin McCorbyn isn't waiting in the wings to take over so small mercies and all that.

  • Posts: 15,106
    Off topic but I thought you were pro Brexit @TheWizardOfIce . But yes retconning over a bad decision is not a good idea. Bring back Blofeld for Bond 25, 26 or wherever and forget the stepbrother angle. It's not like they have no reason to hate each other otherwise.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Off topic but I thought you were pro Brexit @TheWizardOfIce . But yes retconning over a bad decision is not a good idea. Bring back Blofeld for Bond 25, 26 or wherever and forget the stepbrother angle. It's not like they have no reason to hate each other otherwise.

    I am indeed pro Brexit in principle. But alas what I am not is a total unmitigated shambles at the hands of people who, incredibly, are managing to make the odious Eurocrats in Brussels appear vaguely competent by comparison.

    Corbyn or the the present abortion of a government limping on? I think I'd favour a military coup at this stage.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Cant find a SP appreciation thread (i'm not surprised !) so I will put this in here :

    James Bond assistant director sues for £2.5m over 'career-ending' injury on Spectre set.

    An assistant director on the James Bond films who was left with career-ending injuries after he was crushed on the set of Spectre is suing for £2.5 million in damages.

    Terry Madden was filming in Austria when a camera truck veered off the road and crashed into him, pinning him by the legs.
    He suffered multiple fractures, tissue damage and nerve damage in the February 2015 accident and has had a succession of reconstructive operations including a skin graft.

    The insurers for Eon Productions, makers of the Bond films, admitted liability. But Mr Madden is yet to receive damages and on Tuesday served proceedings in the High Court. He is claiming £2.5 million in damages, including future loss of earnings and medical costs.

    Mr Madden, 66, had worked on scores of films including the original Star Wars, The X-Men and Jason Bourne franchises, and numerous Bond films.

    He said: “I felt privileged and proud to work and be part of an active, exciting, but hard-working industry, at times sacrificing family life.
    “Then to have a career - a career you worked hard over many year to build up - taken away within a few seconds in this horrendous accident has been soul-destroying.

    “It has limited my mobility greatly and I am unable to do things I once took for granted.”

    Mr Madden had worked as an assistant director on every Bond film since For Your Eyes Only in 1981.

    The Spectre accident occurred on February 17 2015, when the second unit was filming action sequences of an aeroplane flying through a valley in the Alps. A remotely-operated camera rig was mounted on to a Range Rover which skidded out of control and hit Mr Madden.

    His lawyer, Julian Chamberlayne of Stewarts, said: “Although we secured an admission of liability at an early stage, it has now become necessary to issue High Court proceedings to ensure that the insurers fully compensate Terry for his injuries, which have ultimately ended his successful and celebrated career.”

    He added that Mr Madden is not critical of the film company.
  • Posts: 4,603
    The fact that the insurance company have not paid up speaks volumes for the lack of integrity within this sectore. Nothing to be proud of and it rubs off on the wider brand.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited March 2018 Posts: 9,117
    The guy has worked on every Bond since FYEO. It'd be nice if Babs just sorted him out or paid his legal fees to fight his case against these leeches.

    Insurance has to be up there with car hire and FIFA as one of dodgiest industries in the world.
  • Posts: 12,526
    The guy has worked on every Bond since FYEO. It'd be nice if Babs just sorted him out or paid his legal fees to fight his case against these leeches.

    Insurance has to be up there with car hire and FIFA as one of dodgiest industries in the world.

    Seconded!!
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