Was SPECTRE a disappointment?

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    SP had some boring bits, yeah. It's not bad if you compare it to MR, but it pales besides the likes of FRWL or TLD.
    Basically, we got two great ones from Craig.
    Come to think of it, we got two great ones from Pierce & Timothy also. Only Connery gave us a bunch...

    And Roger too!

    Well, yeah, he gave us a bunch of very entertaining ones, but great? Maybe his first two... TSWLM was okay... FYEO was really good...

    I think FYEO and TSWLM were both great, and LALD and OP are also good films too, the others I think are slightly mediocre

    Well, ALL of those are better than SP, that's for sure.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,587
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    SP had some boring bits, yeah. It's not bad if you compare it to MR, but it pales besides the likes of FRWL or TLD.
    Basically, we got two great ones from Craig.
    Come to think of it, we got two great ones from Pierce & Timothy also. Only Connery gave us a bunch...

    And Roger too!

    Well, yeah, he gave us a bunch of very entertaining ones, but great? Maybe his first two... TSWLM was okay... FYEO was really good...

    I think FYEO and TSWLM were both great, and LALD and OP are also good films too, the others I think are slightly mediocre

    His first four are great in my opinion.

    Then the 80s hit
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,483
    I'm a big fan of TSWLM, LALD and FYEO.
    MR is ranked behind SP because I can't stand the last 30 minutes in space. Nevertheless, MR (and all Roger movies) is/are more entertaining than SP.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    What I really enjoy most about SP is the PTS, The Rome chase, the Hinx fight & Monica B. Sadly, that's not a lot of the movie...
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,483
    chrisisall wrote: »
    What I really enjoy most about SP is the PTS, The Rome chase, the Hinx fight & Monica B. Sadly, that's not a lot of the movie...

    You nailed it. I would also add Q and my top five moments are all included. The first half of SP is at least solid, the second half is disappointing apart from the intense train fight.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited January 2022 Posts: 693
    Good video on why SPECTRE is so lackluster. It divides its action and exposition into separate scenes, going back and forth between them, instead of integrating them the way CR and SF do.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Good video on why SPECTRE is so lackluster. It divides its action and exposition into separate scenes, going back and forth between them, instead of integrating them the way CR and SF do.

    Good find, slide.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 2022 Posts: 6,296
    I feel like Roger had about the same hit ratio as Craig, especially if you just consider LALD, TSWLM, MR, FYEO, and OP against Craig's five.

    MR with some nips and tucks (particularly if Jaws is kept out of the film until after Chang dies, and if you take out the boat chase entirely--just have Moore parachute into the pyramids) would play a lot better. TMWTGG and AVTAK have much bigger issues that editing can't fix.
  • Posts: 2,161
    For me Roger has four great ones (LALD, TMWTGG, TSWLM, FYEO), two that are overall misses (MR, AVTAK), and one in the middle (OP). 4-2-1
    Craig with three hits (CR, QOS, SF), one miss (SP), and one that is on both ends (NTTD). 3-1-1
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 1,032
    I prefer “middle Roger” — to me his best stretch is TSWLM - MR - FYEO - OP.

    I do wonder how his tenure would be viewed if that was his only bunch of films.

    Craig has 3 masterpieces CR - QOS - SF.
    NTTD is solid upper middle ground.
    SP is right in the middle for me.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Birdleson wrote: »
    For me Roger has four great ones (LALD, TMWTGG, TSWLM, FYEO), two that are overall misses (MR, AVTAK), and one in the middle (OP). 4-2-1
    Craig with three hits (CR, QOS, SF), one miss (SP), and one that is on both ends (NTTD). 3-1-1

    It's so odd to me that we agree on TMWTGG yet disagree on SF> I'm perplexed....
  • Posts: 12,466
    The earlier parts of the Bond actor eras tend to have the better films
  • Posts: 2,161
    Definitely.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited February 2022 Posts: 17,795
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The earlier parts of the Bond actor eras tend to have the better films

    Dalton's first two were excellent, every film he made after that it didn't even seem like a Bond movie at all.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited January 2022 Posts: 8,395
    I remembered that famous review of moonraker "where most bond films end, this one begins." Well, in the case of the Craig films its the opposite. The problem is that unlike the other bad movies in the series, I never feel in the need to revisit it for any reason. Sometimes I'm in the mood for the craziness of moonraker, or the pure lunacy of die another day, or the knee slapping insanity of diamonds, but nothing about SPECTRE draws me back to it. Those other movies are entertainingly bad, and have lots to love about them also, whereas sp is a long, dull film and a slog to sit through. Some of the sequences towards the end are so drawn out, and absolutely nothing of interest is going on, like Bond being taken to blofelds lair, or being captured by blofelds goons at the finale, or escaping the building with madders and shooting down blofelds helicopter. The movie is stuffed with scenes that are supposed to be layered with intrigue and suspense but instead just feel empty. The story itself is wafer thin, and feels so perfunctory that I sometimes forget what the plot even is. I mean seriously, Bond is sent to a guys funeral, and then somehow he finds Mr White who leads him to madeline, and then... he just waits for the villains to pick him up? I don't know what his mission is for a lot of the movie, he just seems to be going places on a whim. Again, even the not great entries put some effort into laying bread crumbs for Bond to follow, and has some mystery and a reveal of the plan at the end. What does blofeld intend to do with this surveillance apparatus that's about to go online? I'd rather have a bonkers scheme like building a diamond satellite than some strange commentary about the threats technology poses to our privacy. This version of Blofeld has to be one of the dullest villains in the entire series. Its almost funny to think that they make a point of saying that everything Craig has encountered so far was a direct result of blofelds meddling, even going as far as to make them quasi-siblings when the performance he gives is so lacklustre it barely registers a pulse. If he's supposed to be Bonds ultimate nemesis why does he look half asleep I think he going for quiet intensity, but his slow delivery just comes off as bored. I guess reading P+W's script everyday will do that to you. So much of this film just feels off, like they were having a bad day, and they just wanted to get it over with. There's no inspiration, no spark, no energy to the action or the narrative drive. Moonraker might be silly, but it at least moves along at a brisk clip, and we know what's going on. You can say that about any of the Moore films, as balmy as they get at times they still are coherent and direct. There's no reason to revisit SP, unless your rewatching the whole series from start to finish, and even then you can probably skip it.
  • Posts: 2,161
    I do agree that GE is Brosnan's shining star, by far, but after that it becomes unclear. I'd probably go with DAD next (except for that last third, it is truly horrible).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    There's no reason to revisit SP, unless your rewatching the whole series from start to finish, and even then you can probably skip it.
    That's how I would characterize the last three movies, actually.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    I watch SP on it's own a lot, and find a great deal of enjoyment with it.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2022 Posts: 5,970
    I will definitely enjoy Spectre more over time but at the moment even after all this time, I can still remember my excitement during that ending scene of Skyfall, where everything seemed to be propelling us forward to something great, and when I did Spectre, it just wasn't where I thought we'd be going.

    I'm not even talking about personal angles. I enjoy that stuff when its done right, but I just feel Spectre messed up on what Skyfall seemed to promise.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    I watch SP on it's own a lot, and find a great deal of enjoyment with it.

    After my absolutely dismal experience with SF, SP was a welcome relief. That said, it's still not a great Bond. IMO, of course.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    I watch SP on it's own a lot, and find a great deal of enjoyment with it.
    Likewise.

  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    I watch SP every time it's on tv - I've seen it four times since October thanks to ITV! ;)
    There's one brief flash of the Blofeld that Waltz could've been - when he looks at the henchman as a signal to knock Bond unconscious. Just in that one quick shot, Waltz is completely dead-eyed and there's a blankness to his face that really gives an idea of the cold menace that Blofeld should possess. It's quicker than any QOS edit, though, so it's easily missed!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    I have to say that NTTD has kind of soured me on the post QOS Bonds.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Venutius wrote: »
    I watch SP every time it's on tv - I've seen it four times since October thanks to ITV! ;)
    There's one brief flash of the Blofeld that Waltz could've been - when he looks at the henchman as a signal to knock Bond unconscious. Just in that one quick shot, Waltz is completely dead-eyed and there's a blankness to his face that really gives an idea of the cold menace that Blofeld should possess. It's quicker than any QOS edit, though, so it's easily missed!

    I like that whole scene a lot, honestly. "The things that bring people together. Out of horror... beauty."
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Venutius wrote: »
    I watch SP every time it's on tv - I've seen it four times since October thanks to ITV! ;)
    There's one brief flash of the Blofeld that Waltz could've been - when he looks at the henchman as a signal to knock Bond unconscious. Just in that one quick shot, Waltz is completely dead-eyed and there's a blankness to his face that really gives an idea of the cold menace that Blofeld should possess. It's quicker than any QOS edit, though, so it's easily missed!

    I like that whole scene a lot, honestly. "The things that bring people together. Out of horror... beauty."

    Okay, that was nice. SP had a bunch of nice touches.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited February 2022 Posts: 7,547
    The scene suffers a little from the same "tie everything together" that the rest of the film does, unfortunately, and I was going to say I didn't like the moment when all the technicians stood up and looked at Bond at the same time, but honestly, it's not too much 'benign bizarre' for a Bond film, and illustrates well enough the creepy weirdness of Blofeld, his lair, and his plans, that he'd instruct his people to act this way. Megalomania and all that.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    It's fascinating to see the subjectivity of opinion on such full display here! Mendes4Lyfe mentioned Bond being taken to Blofeld's lair first on his list of boring moments in Spectre, and for me, it's possibly my favorite moment/sequence in the entire series. Watching the Rolls Royce pull up to this desert installation alongside an unnaturally green lawn being tended by cheesy sprinklers, where Blofeld's cheesy assistant awaits, protected by a cheesy bodybuilder dressed as a butler...it brings the benign bizarre back to the series in a way we hadn't seen since the 1980s at the very least. But obviously it's not for everyone.

    And yes, there's a goofiness to Bond going alone (or nearly alone) to the villain's base armed with only a gun and not much of a plan or element of surprise, but on the other hand, he did more or less this very thing in every film from the 1970s. I know it's a little farfetched that shooting the right gas line could cause a whole base to explode, but in the past you could get the same effect by dumping a body in the wrong vat of liquid, or turning a dial up to "danger level". It's nothing new, honestly.

    These throwbacks to under-recognized Bond tropes, combined with that "benign bizarre" that had long been absent from the series, really does it for me with this movie.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    It's fascinating to see the subjectivity of opinion on such full display here! Mendes4Lyfe mentioned Bond being taken to Blofeld's lair first on his list of boring moments in Spectre, and for me, it's possibly my favorite moment/sequence in the entire series. Watching the Rolls Royce pull up to this desert installation alongside an unnaturally green lawn being tended by cheesy sprinklers, where Blofeld's cheesy assistant awaits, protected by a cheesy bodybuilder dressed as a butler...it brings the benign bizarre back to the series in a way we hadn't seen since the 1980s at the very least. But obviously it's not for everyone.

    And yes, there's a goofiness to Bond going alone (or nearly alone) to the villain's base armed with only a gun and not much of a plan or element of surprise, but on the other hand, he did more or less this very thing in every film from the 1970s. I know it's a little farfetched that shooting the right gas line could cause a whole base to explode, but in the past you could get the same effect by dumping a body in the wrong vat of liquid, or turning a dial up to "danger level". It's nothing new, honestly.

    These throwbacks to under-recognized Bond tropes, combined with that "benign bizarre" that had long been absent from the series, really does it for me with this movie.

    Well, but never before does a villain's lair got destroyed so easily .... In the earlier films you mentioned Bond was usually supported by a big army... or Bond only had to fight against the main villain and maybe a few henchmen. Furthermore, there have been better explanations why the lair is destroyed.... In Spectre it rather happens incidently.
  • Posts: 1,078
    I remember hoping SP would be a stand-alone mission, but that didn't happen. When Bond said to Q "make me disappear", I though ;again?'. Or was that in SF? The 'Bond going rogue' thing had kind of become a norm by this point. The Craig era almost seems like James Bond vs the Secret Service at times. But anyway, I liked SP enough to have enjoyed it many times since on DVD. Like the other three Craig Bond movies, (I can't bring myself to purchase the last entry).
    The torture recovery, blowing up the base and other things that people didn't like, I had no problem with.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    GBF wrote: »
    It's fascinating to see the subjectivity of opinion on such full display here! Mendes4Lyfe mentioned Bond being taken to Blofeld's lair first on his list of boring moments in Spectre, and for me, it's possibly my favorite moment/sequence in the entire series. Watching the Rolls Royce pull up to this desert installation alongside an unnaturally green lawn being tended by cheesy sprinklers, where Blofeld's cheesy assistant awaits, protected by a cheesy bodybuilder dressed as a butler...it brings the benign bizarre back to the series in a way we hadn't seen since the 1980s at the very least. But obviously it's not for everyone.

    And yes, there's a goofiness to Bond going alone (or nearly alone) to the villain's base armed with only a gun and not much of a plan or element of surprise, but on the other hand, he did more or less this very thing in every film from the 1970s. I know it's a little farfetched that shooting the right gas line could cause a whole base to explode, but in the past you could get the same effect by dumping a body in the wrong vat of liquid, or turning a dial up to "danger level". It's nothing new, honestly.

    These throwbacks to under-recognized Bond tropes, combined with that "benign bizarre" that had long been absent from the series, really does it for me with this movie.

    Well, but never before does a villain's lair got destroyed so easily .... In the earlier films you mentioned Bond was usually supported by a big army... or Bond only had to fight against the main villain and maybe a few henchmen. Furthermore, there have been better explanations why the lair is destroyed.... In Spectre it rather happens incidently.

    No, I had in mind DN and TMWTGG. No armies. Just turn a dial for one and dump a body in a vat in the other.
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