MI6 Community Bondathon

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  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    edited March 2017 Posts: 7,582
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I've long been a proponent of individual construction of the Bond Universe. Questions like: Is General Hardgreaves Robert Brown's M, or whether the first five Bonds all exist in the same timeline, should be up to each of us to tailor to our own preference. None of you need concur; for me HAPPY & GLORIOUS exists in the same reality as DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER and QUANTUM OF SOLACE.
    Like I say I totally get where you are coming from, and I love the idea of your approach to the franchise. I tend to come at the series in a similar way to @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 though. However I can't even embrace NSNA, let alone the various incarnations of CR, pre 2006. I feel I should, but I can't see any further than the 24 films in the official franchise.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Canon, non-canon, I don't care, if it's Bond, you can bet I'm giving it a go. I've no issues popping in the older versions of CR, NSNA, the Olympic skit, other bits and bobs, etc. and enjoying them. They are what they are, doesn't take away from the franchise in the slightest for me by being entertained watching them.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Let each fan decide. I don t count the Brosnan films.
  • I could never recognize it as canon. Far, far too silly. If it came to that, we might as well recognize Dan's SNL skits as Bond into the continuity as well.

    Dan did SNL skits as Bond? Must see!!!

    Personally, I love Harold Sakata's cold remedy ads as Oddjob, and the Dalton Lark cigarette ad. Are they canon? Who cares! They still take up space in my memories, and so does H&G.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Let each fan decide. I don t count the Brosnan films.

    And I've been forced to think that each Bond actor's films are stories from a different universe.
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    That was beautiful. Thank you!

    (I didn't bother watching the Olympics opening ceremony because by that point I was really fed up with everyone going on about the wretched Olympics and there couldn't possibly be anything exciting about it. FOOL!)
  • Let each fan decide. I don t count the Brosnan films.

    And I've been forced to think that each Bond actor's films are stories from a different universe.

    Yes but...what about Lazenby and/or Brosnan looking fondly at keepsakes from former (Connery) adventures?

    It's all good to me. I can read DC Comics where a Bob Kane/Sheldon Moldoff Batman interacts with a Neal Adams Batman and enjoy them without getting too meta about it. It's all fiction -- that is, an entertaining lie -- as long as it's done skillfully then I can enjoy it.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Let each fan decide. I don t count the Brosnan films.

    And I've been forced to think that each Bond actor's films are stories from a different universe.

    Yes but...what about Lazenby and/or Brosnan looking fondly at keepsakes from former (Connery) adventures?

    It's all good to me. I can read DC Comics where a Bob Kane/Sheldon Moldoff Batman interacts with a Neal Adams Batman and enjoy them without getting too meta about it. It's all fiction -- that is, an entertaining lie -- as long as it's done skillfully then I can enjoy it.

    Sean and George are tied up as one by necessity, but I keep Roger, Tim and Pierce all separate. I'm not counting the rampant anniversary baiting of DAD as canon connections to past Bonds either.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    Okay I only just had the time to rewatch QoS and most of you have already said everything there is to say, so I'll make this short (and positive). My favourite aspects in QoS are ->

    -Craig playing Bond completely straight w/ the no-nonsense approach. Love it.
    -Judi Dench is fantastic. (Her scene with foreign secretary is one of my favs in QoS.)
    -The score
    -the finale with Greene. I like the 'messiness' and spontaneous way Greene fights, almost instinctual, like an animal helplessly trying to kill a predator.
    -Bond stays dirty for a good portion of the film. This continuity helps the realism of the film. The way Bond doesn't give a damn about his appearance, or himself, is great.
    -Craig's delivery of his lines are underrated imho. And he has some cracking moments. His cynicism/humour is what a miss about his recent films.
    -Felix and Beam's scenes are humourous too. Can't get enough of Beam's mistrust and disgust of everything around him.
    -Camille cleaning her slide while Craig goes on a little speech w/ the montage is one of the best moments in the film imo. Well shot.
    -Bond leaving Greene in the middle of the desert and the poetic jstice of the oil.
    -Locations, locations, locations. Fantastic.

    Well those are most of the best parts worth mentioning. (Don't worry I'll write more about Skyfall.)
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @BondAficionado, spot-on analysis with that final fight: Greene is like an animal helplessly trying to kill a predator. Helps lend more credence to the fact that he's totally insane and psychotic, the way he swings away endlessly, with no real precision or aim.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    So many people say the Greene fight is horrible, but I love it. They say there's no danger and that Greene is no threat, which is patently false. He's not as strong as Dan's Bond (who is?!), but you face a neurotic megalomaniac swinging an axe unpredictably and tell me how easy it is. It's a terrifying scene because you get inside Bond's head and know that if he moves even a little out of step, his head could get hacked clean off as Greene swings wildly with no strategy in sight. Someone who fights in rhythm can be worked around, but a man who just fights with no plan is hard to predict and counter, and that is that scene in a nutshell.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    So many people say the Greene fight is horrible, but I love it. They say there's no danger and that Greene is no threat, which is patently false. He's not as strong as Dan's Bond (who is?!), but you face a neurotic megalomaniac swinging an axe unpredictably and tell me how easy it is. It's a terrifying scene because you get inside Bond's head and know that if he moves even a little out of step, his head could get hacked clean off as Greene swings wildly with no strategy in sight. Someone who fights in rhythm can be worked around, but a man who just fights with no plan is hard to predict and counter, and that is that scene in a nutshell.

    THIS. Copy and paste that somewhere, so you can immediately post it when someone mentions how non-threatening the scene is.

    As Greene swings wildly, Bond calculates every move and counter to ensure that he doesn't make the tiniest mistake, which will lead to a painful axe death. It's brilliant stuff. It's sort of like Craig's Bond acknowledging that Hinx has the advantage over him, so he tries to use his PPK, a lit candle, an ice pick, and more to get the edge over him.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    So many people say the Greene fight is horrible, but I love it. They say there's no danger and that Greene is no threat, which is patently false. He's not as strong as Dan's Bond (who is?!), but you face a neurotic megalomaniac swinging an axe unpredictably and tell me how easy it is. It's a terrifying scene because you get inside Bond's head and know that if he moves even a little out of step, his head could get hacked clean off as Greene swings wildly with no strategy in sight. Someone who fights in rhythm can be worked around, but a man who just fights with no plan is hard to predict and counter, and that is that scene in a nutshell.

    THIS. Copy and paste that somewhere, so you can immediately post it when someone mentions how non-threatening the scene is.

    As Greene swings wildly, Bond calculates every move and counter to ensure that he doesn't make the tiniest mistake, which will lead to a painful axe death. It's brilliant stuff. It's sort of like Craig's Bond acknowledging that Hinx has the advantage over him, so he tries to use his PPK, a lit candle, an ice pick, and more to get the edge over him.

    Bond takes some crazy hits with the axe too, for all he blocks, including being smashed with the top of the thing on the forehead, leaving a nasty gash. Just brutal. And then there's that great moment where Bond sees Greene swing down at him, at which point he takes his hands and is able to dodge the blow while simultaneously sending the blade of the axe right into Greene's foot, where you can actually see a cut splitting his foot in two. The film does not hold back.

    Another moment I love is during the Slate fight where Bond uses the scissors to stab Slate in the neck so that he'll bleed out quickly, and even when Slate starts to squirm his leg about on the balcony to kick at Bond, he then stabs him through the thigh as well to truly silence his movement. Bond's a surgeon in that scene, taking the bastard out as fast as he can, using anything in his environment, be it a telephone, hotel decoration or utensils.

    I just love, love, love the combat in this film.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The stab to the thigh, I'm pretty sure, was to puncture the femoral artery in order to hasten Slate's death.

    That's how I've always seen it. The last lingering shot we get of Slate, you can see a lot of blood near his leg.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The stab to the thigh, I'm pretty sure, was to puncture the femoral artery in order to hasten Slate's death.

    Yes, hence him being silenced.

    By the way, I just noticed that everyone currently involved with this leg of the Bondathon are far more positive about QoS than negative. After fighting for its honor for so long, it's a nice thing to see.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I've always been taken by Greene's fighting technique as well, and I mentioned it in my notes about him. Seems those who do like this film have picked up on that aspect of the character.

    QOS was maybe a bit of a shock after the more casual, epic feel of CR. The general movie goer wasn't expecting such a different approach, plus of course the comparison to Bourne (I've never seen a single one of these films so I'm not in a position to comment - I just know the jerky hand held camera style isn't new to Bond or Bourne).
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    Another moment I love is during the Slate fight where Bond uses the scissors to stab Slate in the neck so that he'll bleed out quickly, and even when Slate starts to squirm his leg about on the balcony to kick at Bond, he then stabs him through the thigh as well to truly silence his movement. Bond's a surgeon in that scene, taking the bastard out as fast as he can, using anything in his environment, be it a telephone, hotel decoration or utensils.

    I just love, love, love the combat in this film.

    Yeah that's a really brutal fight. We would never get to see that sort of violence in SPECTRE. Shame that they deviated with Mendes' softer approach.

    One other moment I treasure is after Mathis is taken out of the car (and unfortunately shot). Bond is quick though and he just executes them on the spot. He had the 2nd policeman on the ground, and instead of knocking him out, he just shoots him point blank without thinking twice.
  • JohnHammond73JohnHammond73 Lancashire, UK
    edited March 2017 Posts: 4,151
    I'll admit to being one of those who thought Greene was non-threatening. However, on this viewing and thanks to this Bondathon, i now see him differently. He is so much more of a threat than i thought. Not just with the fight (which he really does play, psychotically, well, which makes more for of a dangerous adversary.) but because of those around him too. He has lots of influence on those around him, making him a the more threatening. Apart from, maybe, Lloyd Christmas Elvis.

    QOS has flown up my ranking thanks to this and seems destined to finish in a top ten position. Seeing as it finish 18th last time, this is one hell of a jump.
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    Sean and George are tied up as one by necessity, but I keep Roger, Tim and Pierce all separate. I'm not counting the rampant anniversary baiting of DAD as canon connections to past Bonds either.

    OHMSS is in my imaginary Dalton timeline. But then, so are CR and Moonraker-Done-Properly.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I used to like the idea of a continuous timeline. And of course CR threw that all out of the window, especially with the Judi Dench conundrum.

    Now, I'm like @BeatlesSansEarmuffs, none of it bothers me. They're just big slabs of entertainment.

    I know Peter Hunt talked about seeing OHMSS as a bit of a standalone adventure with no link to the other films. That explains Blofeld not recognising Bond, but not the misty eyed reminisces of Bond in his office.

    So it doesn't bother me either way
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I'll admit to being one of those who thought Greene was non-threatening. However, on this viewing and thanks to this Bondathon, i now see him differently. He is so much more of a threat than i thought. Not just with the fight (which he really does play, psychotically, well, which makes more for of a dangerous adversary.) but because of those around him too. He has lots of influence on those around him, making him a the more threatening. Apart from, maybe, Lloyd Christmas Elvis.

    QOS has flown up my ranking thanks to this and seems destined to finish in a top ten position. Seeing as it finish 18th last time, this is one hell of a jump.

    What makes you think Greene is psychotic?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Another moment I love is during the Slate fight where Bond uses the scissors to stab Slate in the neck so that he'll bleed out quickly, and even when Slate starts to squirm his leg about on the balcony to kick at Bond, he then stabs him through the thigh as well to truly silence his movement. Bond's a surgeon in that scene, taking the bastard out as fast as he can, using anything in his environment, be it a telephone, hotel decoration or utensils.

    I just love, love, love the combat in this film.

    Yeah that's a really brutal fight. We would never get to see that sort of violence in SPECTRE. Shame that they deviated with Mendes' softer approach.

    One other moment I treasure is after Mathis is taken out of the car (and unfortunately shot). Bond is quick though and he just executes them on the spot. He had the 2nd policeman on the ground, and instead of knocking him out, he just shoots him point blank without thinking twice.

    I think SP gets close to the darkness of QoS, and some of the violence or depravity we hear implied (such as SPECTRE's operations overheard during their meeting) are even more diabolical than anything in that film. I seem to be in the minority here, but I think SP is ominous from beginning to end, whereas QoS lets up in mood and feels far lighter in comparison at plenty of times. And the Hinx fight alone is just super violent. Bond almost getting his eyes peeled out, thrown through carriage walls feet thick, and being pummeled to near-death? Yes, it can go there.

    SF was way lighter than SP could ever be with its heavy content.
    I'll admit to being one of those who thought Greene was non-threatening. However, on this viewing and thanks to this Bondathon, i now see him differently. He is so much more of a threat than i thought. Not just with the fight (which he really does play, psychotically, well, which makes more for of a dangerous adversary.) but because of those around him too. He has lots of influence on those around him, making him a the more threatening. Apart from, maybe, Lloyd Christmas Elvis.

    QOS has flown up my ranking thanks to this and seems destined to finish in a top ten position. Seeing as it finish 18th last time, this is one hell of a jump.

    What makes you think Greene is psychotic?

    He's certainly short-fused and gets to cackling when he feels in control, making him seem very mad. He implies at the beginning of the film that he murdered a piano student of his mother's when she made fun of him, and when Camille degrades him similarly he nearly shoves her off the balcony. Whenever anyone says anything to upset him, you can see flames burn in his eyes. He can't take it, and wants to kill whoever had the gall to cross him.

    With his character and how Amalric plays him I always get the sense that whenever Greene is awake and walking around he's constantly looking at people who look at him, thinking, "They hate me," "They don't respect me," "They think I'm a fool." He's constantly acting wired and searching in need of some form of respect or power from others, likely because he feels powerlessness deep down. He's taken to power quite well, and his short-fuse ensures that when his grasp on that power loosens, he's going to snap as only he can.

    He feels very psychotic in this way to me, thinking everyone around him doesn't respect or bow to him, when in reality it's likely all in his head. When he mentions murdering the piano student as a boy, I am always curious if the girl ever really made fun of him, or if his mind just made him think she was toying with him. His grasp on the reality of the moment makes him very dangerous, because he seems incapable of thinking clearly. Instead of being able to perceive things as how they really are, he sees things how his mind tricks him into thinking they are.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Don t we all, though?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Don t we all, though?

    Which one of those? Kill piano students? Think people are talking about us behind our back? Lose grip on reality?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The first one.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    The first one.

    I can't say I have, but even if I had, I wouldn't admit to it.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    I can't say I have, but even if I had, I wouldn't admit to it.

    That's what they always say. Book 'em boys. ;)
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    I've been watching the stylistic choices of the editing of each Bond film recently (I'm finding the longest take for each JB movie) and QoS has some really awkward and unnecessary cuts. I'm talking about the whole film - not just the action scenes.

    Sometimes they could've simply ended a scene with a nice long take but they prefer to switch camera angles and show pointless things to the audience. Also, at Greene's fundraiser, we get odd .5s shots of people talking and drinking. Usually they'd use long opening shots to introduce us to the setting and the atmosphere. Not here. Nope.

    I also found out that most shots left in the final film rarely reach 15sec long, which is nothing. SPECTRE must of had dozens of that length. Many times you'd get them one after another in the same scene etc. So QoS wanted to keep the pacing up throughout the entire film, which does actually work. However, the film could've easily been 2 hours long and not an embarrassing 107 minutes. They cut moments that should've lasted way longer and it makes the film feel too raw imo. Take Greene's plane taking off as an example. We see many quick shots of it taking off but with not any fluidity in it. 1st it's on the runway and next it's high up in the sky... At the end of the day, I'd say the editors cut many moments too early (usually not done if the take is good) and yet they stuffed unimportant micro shots into the film, which just don't really work well.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I wouldn't say some of the quick shots are pointless. They create a certain atmosphere or rhythm, like the shot of the beads dangling in the breeze the second before Slate tries to stab Bond, or the more lingering frames focusing only on Dan's face in close-up as he emotes a reaction to something that just happened.

    A lot of the images lie to you, making you think everything is stable before the next set unravel it, which I like. The early Bond films would play similar visual tricks that I loved, usually due to Ted Moore's camera work. Some of these moments may go quick for some, but I have watched this film so many times that I don't even notice it at this point.

    It was clear that the editors were keen on telling their story, so they snipped random things like a plane taking off to get you off to the next set of images. It can be jarring at first, but one of my favorite things about the film is that it is always a visual treat and a different experience every time. Like few Bond films, it tells as much a story with images as it does dialogue, which is damn hard to do without the great cast they have here.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    I particularly like Forster's shot selection, in regards to the transitional scenes; think when Bond is entering Slate's hotel, and the scene in at the desert hotel, when Greene etc. are meeting. He uses quick, short shots, in order to get to the next action scene/dialogue exchange, very quickly. It reminds me of Fleming's writing; short, sharp sentences – both Fleming and Forster use speed.
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