Do you believe in aliens and UFOs?

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  • Posts: 1,493
    peter wrote: »
    I wouldn’t say I was a non believer…. I always thought there must be other life forms out there, but after reading @ColonelSun ’s research and then the series he’s developing, I was moved to believe this is a topic of such large scope, with more reports and government admissions, that I’m more convinced than ever that these pilots (whether commercial or military), can’t all be hallucinating or worse, lying.

    The fact that those giving their accounts have been ridiculed or under threat of losing their livelihood also gives me pause; what’s the benefit of telling these stories if they’re not true? It’s not as if all these men are getting book and tv deals… The risk is seemingly more than any reward.

    Interesting discussion above, gentlemen. And far above my pay grade (you’re both quite smart, AINT ya? 😉)

    Thx, Peter. I have spoken to so many witnesses, teachers, military, police men, nurses, local odd-job men (totally working class), most of them never even considered UFOs to be real - until they saw them with their own eyes. More disturbingly, I've interviewed several men and women who are absolutely convinced they have been abducted (sometimes at night, but not always) and they have had DNA, sperm and eggs taken from them. One woman, a veteran English teacher, lost her job because she reported her deeply disturbing encounters, and, I fear, she is suicidal. If people think all these people are making this stuff up, then I say, for what purpose? It sure as hell doesn't make their lives better, in fact they are ridiculed and, like the teacher and also a Yorkshire police officer, lose their jobs and livelihoods. That is real. Real. So people can go and speak to these witnesses and listen closely to their stories. These are traumatised people. Something is going on. And we are blind fools to ignore it.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2023 Posts: 3,152
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    human beings, as history shows us over an dover again, often fail to see what is right in front of their eyes because it can or might upset their understanding of a safer reality.
    Yes, this is precisely my experience re. people flatly refusing to accept what happened at Orgreave because it contradicted something they'd been brought up to believe in, deeply.
  • Posts: 1,493
    Venutius wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    human beings, as history shows us over an dover again, often fail to see what is right in front of their eyes because it can or might upset their understanding of a safer reality.
    Yes, this is precisely my experience re. people flatly refusing to accept what happened at Orgreave because it contradicted something they'd been brought up to believe in, deeply - and that was over a far more 'down to earth' event!

    Yes, when people fail to see how important the drive for truth is, then we are screwed.

    I recall telling a friend 30 years ago about climate change. He laughed at me. Genius!
  • Posts: 1,493
    DarthDimi, did you just look up the Drake equation on Wikipedia?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    DarthDimi, did you just look up the Drake equation on Wikipedia?

    No sir. I first learned about it in astronomy courses I took in 2002, during my college days. I also read about it in a book by Asimov and I memory serves a book by Sagan as well. It is also mentioned and discussed in 21st Century Astronomy, an expensive textbook I treated myself to in 2014 to help me get over a painful breakup. Wikipedia is rarely my go-to source for anything science.
  • Posts: 1,493
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @ColonelSun
    I am familiar with the Drake equation. Just so we're clear: its validity has never been experimentally verified. The equation itself is largely based on presumptions, not on empirical data. So 'doing the math' is certainly amusing and could result in interesting discussions, but it is not at all an equation of proven validity such as, say, the Schrödinger equation or Maxwell's equations. That said, I have always had a fondness for the Drake equation. I'm not here to ridicule it, only to warn people not to lend the same credence to it as we do to, say, equations in an engineering textbook that we use to build bridges and buildings.

    Also, the Drake equation predicts the number of alien civilizations out there that are sufficiently advanced to be able to communicate with us. It does not, however, imply that there's a big chance one of them has already found or visited us; that's an entirely different matter. The Drake equation doesn't put the probability of us having been visited by aliens in numbers.

    I regret that you want to call my position in this discussion 'based on an uneducated opinion.' I think I have shown more than enough willingness to have this discussion in an open-minded fashion. So for the last time: I am not denying or dismissing anything, I'm simply saying that as long as the only thing we have to work with is what alleged witnesses can tell us, I reserve the right to remain unconvinced. When you submit that "mankind's greatest failure is our continuous denial, even when it's right in front of us," I'm saying that the problem is exactly that: it isn't right in front of us yet, it's so far locked in anecdotal recounts. And I want more before I completely jump on the wagon.

    I simply can't see why this is so troubling. I have admitted to being a bit harsh in the past, and also to being much more open-minded thanks to this thread, mostly thanks to your passionate advocating, @ColonelSun. I also continue to point out that I don't want to dismiss anything in this debate as silly. But I don't think I'm being unfair when I say that I'll reserve my conclusions until I have seen more proof.

    I respect that. I think you have, as you say, been open. The reason this is so important to me is because, after all I've researched and been told by experts and witnesses, it really is very important. You have not experienced that as far as I know. Your opinion is, therefore, just an opinion without first hand research or experience.

    US Congress are finally admitting UAPs are real, but holding back on saying what they think they are - although, from my sources, they do know what they are. All I can say to you is that human beings, as history shows us over an dover again, often fail to see what is right in front of their eyes because it can or might upset their understanding of a safer reality. I think we know that is true.

    Thank you, @ColonelSun. And yes, you are right, I have never conversed with anyone claiming any experience in the matter. That's why I have built a genuine interest in reading/seeing what you are willing to share with me.

    And yes, I agree that people are quick to dismiss something that defies their everyday experiences. As a teacher, I have to fight that uphill battle every year. Some students, no matter how I approach the subject, mock quantum physics because it messes with how they see the physical world. So I certainly understand that convincing the "masses" of something other than what ends up on their grocery lists or in their wallets can be challenging. And I'm not trying to be a hypocrite; I know that I'm one of the not-so-easily-swayed folks in this discussion myself.

    For the record: my son is about to turn 1. One day, when he's a little bit older, I want to gaze at the stars at night with him and tell him about all the possibilities such an incredibly large universe has to offer. I want to take him to an observatory too--we have one not too far from where we live--and show him, not just the beauty of what we can (already) see, but also challenge him to keep an open mind about what we cannot (yet) see. Aliens with be a part of those conversations. Most of all, and I hope you are cool with that, I want to teach him that our knowledge about the universe is still only in its infancy, and that there's so much going on out there that we haven't even begun to contemplate, but that the scientific approach is still, while not without its flaws, the best tool we have to dig ever deeper in those hidden realities. I'm really looking forward to those moments with my boy, and I truly hope, from the bottom of my heart, that he'll be as excited about these things as I am. ;-)

    Yes, I 100% admire that.

    I apologise for being hard on you. The reason is that this is very, very important stuff in our history and for our survival (like your son's future) and our evolution. All I can say is that I have gone down the rabbit hole and it's been very tough. I am very serious about this subject matter. We are not alone. They are here.

    They are lying low in our unexplored oceans. Why? It's obvious. Seek out worlds with oceans. Our planet surface is 71% water. We know, and they know, life begins in the oceans and near hot vents/springs. We are already focused on several of Jupiter's moons, specifically Europa. The genius Arthur C. Clarke, the man who, in the the1940's, accurately predicted satellite communication and data will be fundamental to our future societies - said that Europa is where we will find life in our own solar system (see 2010). And Europa's oceans are now showing, just this year, carbon and the other key ingredients for life, and, very soon, we are going to find primitive ocean life on that moon.

    They, ETs. know that ocean worlds orbit within the Goldilock's zone - close enough to a sun, but far enough away, for water, on a vast scale, (water which came to us from carbon loaded asteroids) to be fluid and at the right temperature for life. Also, that means these oceans, wherever you look in our galaxy or in the wider universe, have the same basic chemical compounds. That means, even if a planet's atmosphere is hostile to life, its oceans will still be very similar to any other world. So that environment is, if you're an alien, a very safe place to establish a base or bases. And that is exactly what they have done. That is why so many UFO sightings are over oceans or lakes or other water locations. Don't believe me - look it up.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Well, it's been definately an interesting discussion. I haven't had the time to check it all out, but I'll pose my own strong belief here, and that is that humanity's greatest flaw is it's presumption of beeing intelligent at all. We're a stupid species thinking to be smart, and that will be our own downfall, sooner or later.

    Beyond that, @ColonelSun obviously has a strong point in the fact that he states that we usually won't accept anything beyond our own senses, which is daft considering the fact that we've already developed technology that can probe further than we can, and that's most likely just the tip of the iceberg. What I've always found interesting is the notion of more dimentions interacting. IIRC for quantum mechanics to work we need about 10 dimentions, whereas we can only move in 3 and perceive the 4th (time). If ET's move through a 5th, we wouldn't notice at all.

    All in all, a but of humility on human's side is definately called for. @ColonelSun please let us know when your series is finished and where we can see it. If anything I'm highly curious.
  • Posts: 1,860
    Until @ColonelSun gets his project off the ground I recommend everyone searching out the TV mini series "Intruders" to watch. All of it is based on credible research put together by Bud Hopkins, one of the foremost UFO researchers. During the production and after, there were several times when the subject of what I was working on would get brought up in conversation and lead to being told alien centric stories by strangers, professional associates and extended family members. All of them said they had never shared their stories before but felt that I and my wife would understand what they had experienced. Their stories echoed what the other subjects, under hypnosis, had shared while doing our research for "Intruders".
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2023 Posts: 24,183
    Well, it's been definately an interesting discussion. I haven't had the time to check it all out, but I'll pose my own strong belief here, and that is that humanity's greatest flaw is it's presumption of beeing intelligent at all. We're a stupid species thinking to be smart, and that will be our own downfall, sooner or later.

    Beyond that, @ColonelSun obviously has a strong point in the fact that he states that we usually won't accept anything beyond our own senses, which is daft considering the fact that we've already developed technology that can probe further than we can, and that's most likely just the tip of the iceberg. What I've always found interesting is the notion of more dimentions interacting. IIRC for quantum mechanics to work we need about 10 dimentions, whereas we can only move in 3 and perceive the 4th (time). If ET's move through a 5th, we wouldn't notice at all.

    All in all, a but of humility on human's side is definately called for. @ColonelSun please let us know when your series is finished and where we can see it. If anything I'm highly curious.

    Quantum physics works fine. It's string theory that requires 10 dimensions (though, in all fairness, string theory isn't entirely disconnected from quantum physics.) An interesting little novel that explores the philosophical implications of higher-dimension creatures visiting lower-dimension ones is FLATLAND, which I highly recommend to anyone with an interest in maths and physics.

    The 'problem' with the higher dimensions (i.e. higher than our three or, indeed, four) is that according to string theory, they aren't stretched out over the entire span of the universe, but rather are curled up into incredibly small 'dots'. Michio Kaku, in one of his best books ever, HYPERSPACE, explores the possibilities of 'pulling open' such a dot into a portal that connects with another dot somewhere else. He, indeed, sees that as a not so implausible mode of space travel, jumping between higher-dimensional dots without having to cross the vast three-dimensional distances of space. The only problem, he asserts, is that in order to manipulate such 'portals', a vast supply of energy has to be available. We're not talking about merely a nuclear reaction (not even a fusion reaction), but something in the order of magnitude of a full star's entire energy content, and then some. So the message he gives us, humans, is basically: keep dreaming (for now.) However, it may not be entirely inconceivable that another, more advanced civilization has already been able to work out a solution. (I first read HYPERSPACE in the late '90s; that book helped me to decide that I was going to pursue a teaching career in science.)

    If this stuff piques anyone's interest, I highly recommend Liu Cixin's amazing trilogy of books THE THREE-BODY PROBLEM, THE DARK FOREST and DEATH'S END. These books explore something akin to what you are proposing, @CommanderRoss. A civilization from a planet in a solar system not too far from ours uses 'uncurled' higher-dimensional particles to transmit information back-and-forth between us and them. These are some of the very best books I have ever read. The first one takes a slow start and initially seems to be dealing with the politics of the Communist revolution in China; yet, after a handful of chapters, it becomes very clear what is actually going on. The author has, in fact, done such a remarkable job of making it all seem so convincing, that many chapters feel like I'm reading an actual scientific dissertation on the subject. Amazing stuff.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    Flatland is brilliant.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Flatland is brilliant.

    Ah, another fan! Yes, I'm glad you agree.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Thanks @DarthDimi ! I'll see if I can pick up on some of those books.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Ok, bought the book, but due to circumstances have been driving to work instead of the train, so no time to read it yet.

    However

    watching the 'encounter' series on netflix (I'm at episode 2 now), it seems there's ampel evidence that aliens HAVE visited earth. Especially the Mozambique case is very, very compelling.
    I saw a small snipped of a video online the other day where an iteresting character said that 'if you believe, it means there's doubt'. Which, I think, is correct. Which makes me wonder, do I now 'believe' in Aliens whom have visited, or do I accept is as a fact?
  • theres more chance of the US government introducing gun control laws than aliens being found. In other words, no chance.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    theres more chance of the US government introducing gun control laws than aliens being found. In other words, no chance.

    Well, they did try to warn us:

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    theres more chance of the US government introducing gun control laws than aliens being found. In other words, no chance.

    That's what I used to think (until a week ago). I'm not so sure now.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    theres more chance of the US government introducing gun control laws than aliens being found. In other words, no chance.

    That's what I used to think (until a week ago). I'm not so sure now.

    What changed your mind a week ago, if I may ask?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    theres more chance of the US government introducing gun control laws than aliens being found. In other words, no chance.

    That's what I used to think (until a week ago). I'm not so sure now.

    What changed your mind a week ago, if I may ask?

    Watching 'encounters' on Netflix. Especially the second episode is quite compelling.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 2 Posts: 18,281
    Al Worden - the Apollo 15 veteran astronaut says we humans are the aliens who came to Earth:



    I've long thought that if aliens do exist they'd most likely be other human beings just like us. It kind of goes against the "little green men" stereotype but it's the most likely hypothesis for me. That's if they exist at all. Obviously, if they are visiting us in UFOs then they have more advanced technology than we have. That's a lot of "ifs", but you get my point I'm sure.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Was Mr Bean an alien?

  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited April 1 Posts: 1,711
    Re: mountains of testimony, I've read more than one book on demon possession, and as a person who doesn't believe in demons etc, it was all very interesting reading, but not really compelling enough for me to change my worldview.

    I mean, you have loads of testimony from alleged victims of possession, from exorcists, from witnesses. You have peripheral miracles witnessed by even more people. You can find this in cultures that have some religious framework for it, and they can tell you the names and heirarchies of these demons, and it's all as dubious as it is commonplace. Interestingly, I've seen some of these folks claim that what people believe to be alien abductions are actually cases of demon possession, and I've even seen people claiming the reverse.

    Now, belief in demon possession would require a much bigger reworking of my worldview, but the mountains of evidence for it look a lot to me like the testimonies of alien this or that. The idea that extremely advanced extraterrestrial life has kind of been dicking around our planet for decades/centuries, not doing much that's obviously interesting, only detected by rather zealous UFO buffs and apprently "The Government", I mean, that's still a pretty big deal. The fact that everyone carries a camera around nowadays, and that the US government has very recently had a number of lunatics with impressive security clearances, and the fact that those two things don't seem to have greatly influenced the amount of evidence we have...I mean, on the meta-level, from outside, it doesn't seem like something worth digging into all that much.
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