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http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/11/28/obama-reckons-with-a-trump-presidency?mbid=social_twitter
I remember four years ago in here that the situation with regard to the US presidential elections (Romney vs. Obama) was much friendlier, much more nuanced and also slightly more positive.
All of that is gone. And I think that in this kind of political environment it is better to say "Let's agree to disagree".
Personally, I think my view on politics, my ethical beliefs about democracy, are severely tested. And frankly, overall I think they are on the losing side.
Right-(and left-)wing populism are the 'new normal' ever since Brexit and Trump's election. Actually, there have been instances in some Western countries were you could see all of this coming. Think about the rise of Pim Fortuyn in The Netherlands in 2001/2002. And the populist-light "Change" slogan from Obama in 2008. But on the whole, as of 2016, populism has become unstoppable. 2016 has become a pivotal moment in Western politics.
Just have a look at the new Reuters/Ipsos poll in France. So far it seems Marine Le Pen is sailing towards the presidency. The loss off Sarkozy in the French primaries yesterday makes it even easier for her to become president:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/marine-le-pen-poll-election-odds-latest-french-presidential-lead-sarkozy-a7428126.html
In The Netherlands Geert Wilders has already adopted the slogan "Let's Make The Netherlands Great Again!". In my country we have a coalition model, and everyone knows that it will become hard for Wilders' PVV to actually become Prime Minister. But the reason voters are already considering this, should be a serious wake-up call for the conservative-liberal VVD, who in the end needs to form a coalition with the PVV. Latest polls show the PVV in a nech-to-neck battle with the party currently in power, VVD:
https://home.noties.nl/peil/
So what can I, with my progressive, long-term, international, pragmatic views, do about these populist trends? Nothing. Completely nothing. My world view, my ideas and with it my clearly defined solutions are on the losing side. And will probably be on the losing side for years to come if we don't change our attitude.
Will the current wave of right-wing populism bring back classic factory jobs? Will big monopilists like Facebook, Google, who favor robotic and automatic work solutions over physical workforce, become less important in The West? Will the populism stop the current globalization? Will it halt the decline of the middle class and with it the level of prosperity and welfare? I doubt it. In a way Obama was a milder version of a left-wing populist when he came to power in 2008. Now a winning, yet tiny majority dislikes him and u-turns his/her vote towards Trump.
The West is in decline. In serious decline. Prosperity-wise, but also psychologically we're losing from countries like China and Russia. As a matter of fact, the current wave of right-(and left-)wing populism is driving China and Russia in each other's arms. And more will follow (look to The Phillipines, South-Africa, India). Whereas Trump & co. will probably try dismantle trade treaties like NAFTA, TTIP and CETA, China and Russia are already doing the exact opposite and are on the brink of creating a much more powerful free trade region, modelled after the old EU.
Perhaps I sound negative, but I think it's merely realism. There's not much my political views can do about it to stop this trend. I want to say one important thing though, and this goes for people like @BondJames. And on that I agree with him: Regardless of our political differences, we have to fucking sell our stuff, our ideas, our solutions better to ordinary people and workers! We have to show, from left-wing beliefs to right-wing beliefs, from progressive agenda's to conservative agenda's, that we're always doing it for the people!
And I have to grant my respect in that aspect to @BondJames. We have to explain our beliefs better to the people. We have to think at same levels as them. We have to merge much better with the worries of ordinary people who lost their jobs. We should not fear their worries, but instead embrace them. If we don't do that, my progressive political beliefs will die out, because Trump & Co. saw this all coming much earlier.
Once I have formulated more thoughts on this Administration and the policy areas that interest me. I will re-engage with you elsewhere and we can carry on our discussions.
Thanks @BondJames. The past weeks were quite difficult for me...to fathom all of this. But on the issues of listening better to our electorates....I can only say that I wholeheartedly agree with you.
A few days ago I read quite an interesting thing in Dutch newspaper Trouw (progressive, centrist newspaper). It was saying that populism should also be embraced more by people with centrist, progressive ideas. If you don't feel any affiliation with the ultra-left or the ultra-right, then ideas from the political centre are yours. But that same political centre needs to become 'populist' as well.
I stand by the ideology and beliefs of my party D66 (progressive, international-oriented, social on issues, liberal on others, centrist). But dammit, we have to sell our stuff better to those people who fear their futures. And if our world becomes more complex, we have to say that straight in their faces. We need to think in similar levels with them. And sell them solutions that really are achievable. In direct, clear, 'populist' words.
On second thought, you guys are right - perhaps the thread needn't be closed. I really didn't do this out of some disliking of the topic by the way. As a member, I can call it political nonsense. As a scientist, I most definitely call politics, in general, nonsense. As a moderator, however, I don't mind a political thread all that much, which is why I didn't care about closing one and keeping another alive.
So I apologise to @bondjames and @germanlady and others. I simply didn't think it would bother you in any way to take the few interesting conversations from that other thread here and keep going. I guess I wasn't thinking. I'm sorry. If you want the other thread reopened and this one closed, please let me know.
Participants should agree on one thing. That despite our political differences, we can conduct an orderly - if at times lively - debate without recourse to insult or personal slights.
One thing going forward. Just because some people here voted Trump/Brexit or are anti EU/globalism etc that doesn't qualify us as Nazis or racists.
People want to discuss politics on a new thread, that is fine. This one is available, and those unhappy can go open their own political thread; no one is stopping you. Chrisisall wanted it closed, the first one, and I completely agree. That should be the end of it. People complaining to @chrisisall and @DarthDimi, just take deep breath and either participate here or go open a new thread you may be happier with. That's it. The old thread is archived so we can read it any time. If you feel you must copy your comments from there again, do so - merely cut and paste and put on your new thread. This badgering of chrisisall and Dimi is truly ridiculous, in my opinion. So no, I really do not want the old one reopened. There is no genuine need for that and when it was started it was made to finish with the actual election. Politics can carry on elsewhere - and please do. Just do not reopen the first one.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could reopen it as you suggest, and I will be happy to take over ownership of that thread going forward if that could be arranged. There was a lot of interesting discussion on that thread, both current and past, and some of us were highly invested in nurturing the conversation over many months, with, I hope, interesting and well developed posts and arguments. I know I was, and I and others took a lot of abuse on that thread, but we took it in stride. I think you know that it takes a lot to get me worked up, and the closure of that thread has certainly done it.
Additionally, you have always suggested that multiple threads not be opened on the same subject, and that was another reason why I was surprised that you closed it and opened one discussing the same subject. Discussions here are direct continuations of items that were being discussed and had been discussed in the prior thread. It seems like a convoluted approach to satisfy someone's emotions at the expense of logic. There was deliberate spamming of that old thread towards the end to apparently discredit it, which should have been reprimanded. That is not good faith behaviour and is an insult to other members.
The consequence has been to upset some other members, most of all myself. Not only is referencing the posts on the previous thread not possible without difficulty but the flow and enjoyment has been interrupted for those who were invested.
I don't take instruction from non-Mods and so don't give a damn about anyone else's lectures here, but will obviously respect your opinion as a respected mod, whatever it may be. Having said that, none of this makes any sense to me at all and has left a bad taste. What makes the most logical sense is to combine the threads so the entire history remains in one thread.
With many thanks.
I feel that you prioritized someone else over us (knew it all along actually - I'm not as stupid as I may appear) and I find that highly offensive because you know some of us were as invested as anyone in that thread.
The hurt will take time to go away due to your actions but I don't blame you for it. I know you were doing right by others (or perhaps one?). You just ignored me and other members who had just as much right to a say. The decision to close that thread was unilateral and unreasoned. Moreover, it was illogical as the thread was moving along nicely apart from the deliberate & curious spamming and one person who had been whining about the thread since election night did not give the expected result.
Threads online are like works of art. They flourish or die of their own volition and develop a unique personality with time. They should not be tampered with in my view and anyone who may have encouraged you to do so for selfish reasons has done all of us and this forum a disservice and created offense.
Many good points here Gustav and well considered. Never give up your beliefs. And while many are blaming the left for apparently dismissing others concerns the opposite is just as true. Both sides are extremely thin-skinned and sensitive. Just because Trump won the election - the majority of voting Americans still preferred the Democrat candidate. Their concerns and viewpoint shouldn't just be dismissed either. While large portions of America go into shock and mourning - and let's be honest, most of that was reactionary, emotional hyperbole - the resulting 'reaching out' demanded of the left is not being demanded of the Republicans - instead they feel vindicated and that they have a mandate.
Concerns over Trumps comments on Muslims and immigrants should be understood and examined. Voting for a man who speaks like he has - indicates to large sections of the population that a racist, sexist, fear-monger is what the country needs to be 'great again'. Trump's election promises need to be followed through to their logical conclusions. But my prediction is that nothing of significance will change in the areas where people probably most want it because ironically government spending will increase. Taxes for businesses will be cut, but for the working class they will not. Employment increased under Obama - to the level that Romney claimed he would be aiming for when he was running for office. But the jobs are apparently still disappearing. What some of the 'working class' people who voted for Trump want is actually more akin to socialism. They want jobs to come back to America from China and other low-paying countries but paying American workers more means the consumer will have to pay more.
Trump has opposed the raising of the minimum wage and instead championed an expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit to offset child-care expenses. The problem with this is that it targets 'families' at the expense of all others. Also, it is a sliding scale connected to an existing low income and most importantly it is not an appealing raise in wage but rather covered across a year with transfer rebates. I'd argue this makes it less palatable to the electorate because it is harder to identify at the end of each pay cycle.
But it wasn't a con - he said all of these things proudly. It's not like Nixon who put on a face and then secretly ranted against Jews and blacks - Trump's were his platform and his beliefs. Voting for anyone has consequences in the message that is sent.
People may have cherry picked the reasons they voted for him but then they wilfully ignored his racist, sexist comments which were widely reported and continually.
They may not have voted against Muslims and Mexicans but they knowingly voted for someone who is vehemently, proudly and consistently against Muslims and Mexicans and many of his campaign promises are built on those prejudices. And the message that is sent to many is one of 'we don't care about you'. That may not be the message they want to send - but that's the one that many are getting. So does that need to be addressed by the conservatives? Or is the vibe more 'we won, told you so, shut up?' I sense the latter.
The smart thing to do would be to reach out and not see people like amorphous collection of automatons. But both sides do that.
As I've said before - the thing I like the most about Trump is that he has lowered the bar for what constitutes an American President. Non-existent experience and disgusting personal behaviour and statements. Every future candidate should be bulletproof if there is any consistency or justice. Hell, Anthony Weiner should be able to sext every person in the state (it's just locker room texting) and people should be able to ignore it and concentrate on his inventive policies to improve the education system.
Agreed!
So, serious stuff for awhile. Just wait, you'll be begging for me to go back to the song links soon enough! I really don't see why anybody would give a fig about closing one thread to open another. Anybody that wants can jump back in, whether or not the water's fine is another issue. Now is far as this alleged Resident-Elect is concerned...
It look like Hillary's winning the popular vote by nearly 2 MILLION votes as of this point in time. But yes, the fix WAS in, and as anybody with a lick of sense can tell you, when Republicans complain about something it's only because they're doing it themselves. Their reaction to Bill Clinton's infidelity back in the day should have been enough of a clue on that score, with Newt G. and Denny Hastert leading the charge against him. But you say you want something more current, perhaps even more pertinent to the election at hand? Just check out the issue of voter fraud. Seriously. The Republicans went all out to prevent eligible voters in key (Democratic) areas of the south from exercising their constitutional right to vote, with the expected results. One thing the Democratic party is going to have to answer to their constituents for is their lack of attention to this crucial issue. Another is why they didn't even TRY to campaign in Rust Belt states like Wisconsin and Michigan. But, as I say, the fix clearly WAS in...the Powers That Be were just feinting in the other direction and We The People swallowed the lie.
So what now? Well, aside from the possibility of Faithless Electors (although I would argue that any such would actually be acting in accordance with The Founding Fathers' intention in establishing the College in the first place) there's the notion of abolishing the Electoral College itself...or the possibility of the West Coast states seceding from the Union entirely (which I don't really anticipate but it's a fun idea) ... we'll probably all just sit back and watch the shinola hit the fandango. Herr Drumpf's selections for his Cabinet so far don't inspire much hope that he'll suddenly decide to unite us all. His pick for Attorney General was rejected for a much less lofty judicial perch by a Republican congress just a little while back because of his repugnantly racist views, and his Chief of Staff has a remarkable history as propagandist for the far right fringes that were rightly denounced during this election as "deplorable" -- and if Hillary is spineless enough to back-track from that assessment then too bad for her. You should have held your ground, Hillary. I'll repeat it: the Neo-Nazis that Herr Drumpf embraces I find more than deplorable. I find them reprehensible, and any American worthy of the name should too. In fact, there's a suggestion: let's open the American President thread back up and require that only registered American voters can participate in it. Don't like that idea? Fine, then accept this thread as it is and let's debate the future of fascism in this world. We crushed that malignant philosophy once and if we have to again, then so be it. If you want to argue with me on that point, fine. Do it here or I'll see you out in the streets.
Wouldn't people protest and riot if it were the other way around? I don't think the cast meant their statement to be racist or offensive but to be honest I don't think they should have delivered their message. To say they are alarmed.. I mean the man came to see a show and paid $1K to support you and you practically shout out okay you're a racist but we have hope.
Please people, don't be part of that.
I was okay with a white guy playing a Chinese guy in Kung Fu, & a white guy playing Jesus in Jesus Christ Superstar... can we flush this s**t already? It's theatre... entertainment.
Write hate letters to central casting.
CR...really, I wish you'd do a little research. There is a LONG LONG history in the theater of casting against the race ...and the sex of the character...as written. Othello has been played by non-black actors. Shakespeare still snoozes peacefully in his grave. Just recently, in the movie version of Dr. Strange, a character originally written as an old Asian male was played by a much younger Caucasian female. Yes, some people were unhappy, and said so at great length. Doesn't matter. Nobody rioted, the film made $$$, and the world kept on turning.
But....but chris....Jesus WAS white! So is Santa Claus!!!
Trump was only tweeting to use it as a distraction anyway, which people are finally (finally!) waking up to. Not his loyal supporters, I think. They will love him as he steps on them for his gain, does not follow through on his worst (they think great) threats, goes back on so many of his promises to them. Please remember that Trump simply wants continual scandal and outrageousness - surely that is clear now - so people will keep getting upset over things like that instead of talking about, reporters not focusing on, the real deal of negative things (to put it politely) he is doing, pushing, pursuing, championing, etc.
He is blatant in his administrative choices so far. Bannon behind the scenes, I feel sure all along, very happy. Who's the puppet? Yes, clearly it is Trump. (And whose puppet? We can keep guessing ...) But the damage he will do to our democracy, our country, our citizens is unfortunately very real and it will get much worse. He will continue to do his thing, enjoy being the "rogue" president, with two residences, no press with him throughout, start banning the press, trampling on peoples' rights. All so in vogue, this "rogue" stuff. I get that people wanted a change no matter what and risked that. But it is a shame, and the consequences are just appearing on the near horizon now.