Was the SPECTRE reveal or the windsurfing and invisible car worse in your mind?

2

Comments

  • timdalton007timdalton007 North Alabama
    Posts: 155
    Oh the DAD stuff definitely. Though I have issues with Spectre for the same reasons I do with the DAD stuff: it shows a lack of imagination. The DAD stuff reeks of "Oh we have CGI so let's do this!" which is lazy.

    Bringing back SPECTRE and Blofeld to begin with was a lazy idea. While it does an admirable job of tying together the entire Craig era, and retconning the Quantum organization from the first two Craig era films, the basic idea of what the film is doing is resurrecting elements that the series hasn't used in over forty years and bringing them into the present day. Given the legal issues that have surrounded the SPECTRE organization throughout its history, one can't blame the powers that be for wanting to use it once they managed to get a hold of it though one can fault them for using it when it really wasn't necessary. The step-brother thing doesn't bug me that much though, yet again, did it really need to be Blofeld?

    timdalton007
  • Oh the DAD stuff definitely. Though I have issues with Spectre for the same reasons I do with the DAD stuff: it shows a lack of imagination. The DAD stuff reeks of "Oh we have CGI so let's do this!" which is lazy.

    Bringing back SPECTRE and Blofeld to begin with was a lazy idea. While it does an admirable job of tying together the entire Craig era, and retconning the Quantum organization from the first two Craig era films, the basic idea of what the film is doing is resurrecting elements that the series hasn't used in over forty years and bringing them into the present day. Given the legal issues that have surrounded the SPECTRE organization throughout its history, one can't blame the powers that be for wanting to use it once they managed to get a hold of it though one can fault them for using it when it really wasn't necessary. The step-brother thing doesn't bug me that much though, yet again, did it really need to be Blofeld?

    timdalton007

    Define "admirable."
  • edited December 2016 Posts: 19,339
    I actually like the direction they were going with Quantum,in CR and QOS..they had menace and mystery about them..SF I will always see as a stand-alone film,making Silva part of Spectre is just lazy writing.

    I prefer Quantum to Spectre if im honest.
    Spectre in SP was actually weaker than Quantum...all those operators standing up when Blofeld closed his tablet ..where were they when needed ??
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,108
    The Spectre reveal.

    The windsurfing in DAD, in the same way as the Bondola scene in MR, is certainly cringe-worthy. However, they are not an essential part of their respective movies.

    Spectre is about the Spectre reveal. It also pisses all over the heritage of a Fleming novel. That makes it worse in my opinion.
  • Posts: 16,149
    Spectre seems like it would be the movie Mcclory and Brosnan were planning in the early nineties.

    I'd say McClory wouldn't have been dense and trite enough to have a childhood connection between Bond and Blofeld.
    In addition, comparing the CGI windsurf scene to the Blofeld reveal, the CGI crap is only a few seconds running time whereas that torture/reveal scene goes on forever.



  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited December 2016 Posts: 4,582
    There is no redeeming the windsurfing CGI.

    There is, however, a way out for EON in regards to the Spectre/Oberhauser reveal that may not be 100% pleasant, but at least it would make sense.

    Remember that on the train, when Madeleine asks Bond why he's chosen the life he has, he says, "I'm not sure I ever really had a choice."

    This isn't a throwaway line. It's an extremely important, revealing thing for him to say. Bear with me:

    Lets' say that Hannes Oberhauser was a criminal mastermind and the first head of Spectre, back in the 50s and 60s. The Bonds were old family friends, unaware of his criminal ties. As we now know, young James was taken in by Oberhauser and then adopted by a new family... but perhaps this second adoption arrangement was set up by MI6. Young James was viewed as a key military and intelligence recruit because of his ties to Oberhauser. But then he died, as did Franz, and the need to use Bond this way was no longer thought necessary. (Think of this as a "The Departed" type scenario.) All James knew/knows is that he was recruited and trained very early on. To what end? Well, maybe that's what he'll learn in Bond 25.

    I know. Sounds ridiculous. But I think it's EON's only way out of this mess: the Bond-Blofeld connection was not exactly by chance.
  • Posts: 1,631
    For my money, the SPECTRE reveal was worse. As bad as the CGI nonsense in DAD is, it's at least contained to just that film and really only ruins the experience of just that single film. The SPECTRE revelation has retroactive connotations for three other films and, to a degree, weakens each of them.
  • DAD's problems are much, much worse.
  • Posts: 19,339
    SP has certainly de-valued the reputations of CR,QOS,SF if you think about it too much.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    TripAces wrote: »
    There is no redeeming the windsurfing CGI.

    There is, however, a way out for EON in regards to the Spectre/Oberhauser reveal that may not be 100% pleasant, but at least it would make sense.

    Remember that on the train, when Madeleine asks Bond why he's chosen the life he has, he says, "I'm not sure I ever really had a choice."

    This isn't a throwaway line. It's an extremely important, revealing thing for him to say. Bear with me:

    Lets' say that Hannes Oberhauser was a criminal mastermind and the first head of Spectre, back in the 50s and 60s. The Bonds were old family friends, unaware of his criminal ties. As we now know, young James was taken in by Oberhauser and then adopted by a new family... but perhaps this second adoption arrangement was set up by MI6. Young James was viewed as a key military and intelligence recruit because of his ties to Oberhauser. But then he died, as did Franz, and the need to use Bond this way was no longer thought necessary. (Think of this as a "The Departed" type scenario.) All James knew/knows is that he was recruited and trained very early on. To what end? Well, maybe that's what he'll learn in Bond 25.

    I know. Sounds ridiculous. But I think it's EON's only way out of this mess: the Bond-Blofeld connection was not exactly by chance.

    Very interesting. While I'd prefer if they kept away from the personal stuff, should they choose to go down this route, your theory would be the direction I'd like them to take.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    jake24 wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    There is no redeeming the windsurfing CGI.

    There is, however, a way out for EON in regards to the Spectre/Oberhauser reveal that may not be 100% pleasant, but at least it would make sense.

    Remember that on the train, when Madeleine asks Bond why he's chosen the life he has, he says, "I'm not sure I ever really had a choice."

    This isn't a throwaway line. It's an extremely important, revealing thing for him to say. Bear with me:

    Lets' say that Hannes Oberhauser was a criminal mastermind and the first head of Spectre, back in the 50s and 60s. The Bonds were old family friends, unaware of his criminal ties. As we now know, young James was taken in by Oberhauser and then adopted by a new family... but perhaps this second adoption arrangement was set up by MI6. Young James was viewed as a key military and intelligence recruit because of his ties to Oberhauser. But then he died, as did Franz, and the need to use Bond this way was no longer thought necessary. (Think of this as a "The Departed" type scenario.) All James knew/knows is that he was recruited and trained very early on. To what end? Well, maybe that's what he'll learn in Bond 25.

    I know. Sounds ridiculous. But I think it's EON's only way out of this mess: the Bond-Blofeld connection was not exactly by chance.

    Very interesting. While I'd prefer if they kept away from the personal stuff, should they choose to go down this route, your theory would be the direction I'd like them to take.

    No. Please get rid of all the emotional objectives and personal childhood connections between Bond and other characters.

    I agree you could have made it a bit better if they had shown us something from the childhood, some backflashs or leaps in time as it was done in "Departed". Maybe I would have been more interested in the relationship between the two characters.
    But even then, it would still be a mess because SP is not a standalone film but part of a franchise of unique villain characters. A personal relationship is effective once or twice but after that it becomes tiresome and completely unbelievable. Hence the emotions seem forced. It is as if Bond would fall in love in all his films. It is not believable.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    I'd prefer if they stayed away from the personal drama. The being said, what TripAces described would be the best likely outcome if they kept it.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I'll play devil's advocate here and simply say that the older films get a pass on things films now are unable to, largely because audiences think they're film aficionados with expert opinions on things they have to share simply because they have a Facebook account and a score of "followers."

    The Blofeld reveal in YOLT is about as garbage as it gets, a beyond sub-par meeting between Bond and the head of SPECTRE that failed to meet every standard set by the previous movies as there was a structured lead-up to that moment in the volcano. Sean and Donald's scenes together amount to little beyond Blofeld pointing a gun at Bond and Bond doing nothing about it, as if he's begging to be shot. No tension, no drama, nothing. At least in SP both Daniel and Christoph play their roles with more of an essence and agency than their 67 incarnations.

    As for plot lines that smash the narrative to pieces, we are always so quick to simply accept that Blofeld doesn't recognize James Bond when the man comes to his Piz Gloria facility with literally no disguise on whatsoever in OHMSS. This is one of the most illogical happenings in the Bond series, something that would make the film a laughing stock in this day and age (imagine if in the next film Christoph's Blofeld doesn't recognize Dan's Bond for over an hour of screen time?), yet because it's a 60s movie it gets a pass. There's a large part of this that must also be down to the ultimate blinder of good sense, nostalgia.

    Following OHMSS things could have gotten even worse. In DAF Goldfinger's twin would've come back to get at Bond for killing his brother? Come on, now. Adding in all the obscene things that actually did happen in the 70s and beyond as well, from the horrid comedy and one-liners to the overall campiness of the era that made a mockery of what Bond used to be (earnest spy thrillers) and you've got more eyesores than an optometrist's office.

    My point being that it's been far, far worse, not only from a technical standpoint but also a narrative standpoint. The classic films all have a special place in all of our hearts, but it becomes important to call them out for doing the same thing the films of today do, and accept that they were never perfect films either.

    Except From Russia with Love, of course.
  • timdalton007timdalton007 North Alabama
    Posts: 155
    TripAces wrote: »
    There is no redeeming the windsurfing CGI.

    There is, however, a way out for EON in regards to the Spectre/Oberhauser reveal that may not be 100% pleasant, but at least it would make sense.

    Remember that on the train, when Madeleine asks Bond why he's chosen the life he has, he says, "I'm not sure I ever really had a choice."

    This isn't a throwaway line. It's an extremely important, revealing thing for him to say. Bear with me:

    Lets' say that Hannes Oberhauser was a criminal mastermind and the first head of Spectre, back in the 50s and 60s. The Bonds were old family friends, unaware of his criminal ties. As we now know, young James was taken in by Oberhauser and then adopted by a new family... but perhaps this second adoption arrangement was set up by MI6. Young James was viewed as a key military and intelligence recruit because of his ties to Oberhauser. But then he died, as did Franz, and the need to use Bond this way was no longer thought necessary. (Think of this as a "The Departed" type scenario.) All James knew/knows is that he was recruited and trained very early on. To what end? Well, maybe that's what he'll learn in Bond 25.

    I know. Sounds ridiculous. But I think it's EON's only way out of this mess: the Bond-Blofeld connection was not exactly by chance.

    That's not a bad idea @TripAces and it may well be the single best way to reconcile everything after the reveal. Might also explain the Judi Dench's M defence of him throughout the earlier films as well, knowing that piece of information in the back of her mind.

    timdalton007
  • Posts: 1,548
    DAD wins hands down. Worst SfX ever. Plus I love Spectre and the Spectre reveal so I'm biased!
    Pierce was made to look a right prat in that scene. If I'd been him I would sued the visual effects department.
  • I think SPECTRE is a good movie until some pretty contrives stuff happens in the second half of the film to turn it into a middle of the pack Bond film. DIE ANOTHER DAY is one of the worst Bond films ever made, with the windsurfing one of the all-time low moments in the series.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I guess both, the windsurfing scene as well as the adopted brother nonsense are regarded so negatively by most Bond fans since they stand for a somewhat unpleasant development. The CGI windsurfing scene is the low point of the continuously increasing campiness of the Brosnan era whereas the stepbrother side plot is the low point of the forced "personal relation between Bond and the villain" development in the Craig era. At some point it just becomes too much. After DAD, the producers needed to reboot the franchise. I hope they know that they now once more have to go into a new direction.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    GBF wrote: »
    I guess both, the windsurfing scene as well as the adopted brother nonsense are regarded so negatively by most Bond fans since they stand for a somewhat unpleasant development. The CGI windsurfing scene is the low point of the continuously increasing campiness of the Brosnan era whereas the stepbrother side plot is the low point of the forced "personal relation between Bond and the villain" development in the Craig era. At some point it just becomes too much. After DAD, the producers needed to reboot the franchise. I hope they know that they now once more have to go into a new direction.
    +1. Well said and mirrors my own feelings. Time for a change in my view.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Murdock wrote: »
    I didn't really care for the Oberhauser, Blofeld stuff but it doesn't bother me like it does many others around here. I knew from the beginning we were never going to get Fleming's Blofeld so I didn't find it so bad. Hell Newman's score was more offensive to me. :))

    I agree with this, except the Newman bit.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Nothing ever will beat "Mommy was...verybad."
    Nothing.
    Ever.
    And second the rat speech which is the low point in the whole series.
  • Posts: 19,339
    The windsurfing scene is only the second time I have been genuinely embarrassed to be a Bond fan ,after the Bondola in MR.

    I could feel my family and friends eyes all looking at me in total mirth.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Nothing ever will beat "Mommy was...verybad."
    Nothing.
    Ever.
    And second the rat speech which is the low point in the whole series.
    My favourites from the past 20 years, only surpassed by "Lovely girl, tastes like..... like strawberries"

    I love the 'camp' in Bond films.
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,812
    Nothing ever will beat "Mommy was...verybad."
    Nothing.
    Ever.
    And second the rat speech which is the low point in the whole series.

    You mean in Skyfall? That was an awesome speech! I thought it was one of the highlights of Skyfall.
  • brinkeguthriebrinkeguthrie Piz Gloria
    Posts: 1,400
    Low points in the series: anything with Jaws or J.W., the tarzan yell, anything with a slide whistle, and the CGI in DAD.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,195
    By far the SPECTRE reveal. The excesses of DAD were just taking the desire to top what had been done in prior films a bit too far; how Blofeld was revealed, used and his backstory was lazy and unimaginative writing. A character with incredible potential was wasted.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I would go with the Brofeld reveal. You see, when I watch any other Bond film, I don't think of Bond surfing a CGI tundra. But since Spectre, when I watch any other film with Blofeld in, guess what I think of...
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,108
    The ridiculous Robocop suit and the rather noisy finale offended me more than the invisible car or the tsunami surfing. After all, we've had a submersible car and terrible effects (DAF) before.

    The Blofeld reveal however, commits a greater sin. Not one single person involved in DAD expected the public to take any of its goofy aspects serious. Sam Mendes and his team on the other hand give you the impression that their forced personal links are the most meaningful things ever to occur in the franchise.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    As terrible as the DAD para surfing is I wasn't invested in that era and it seemed like just an escalation of the way the Brosnan era was going.

    Whereas the Craig era I was fully invested in and felt cheated with the SPECTRE reveal, it's not just a silly scene that has no real relevance to the plot, it changes how the whole Craig period is now seen.

    Blohauser for me is the worst crime the series ever committed, turning Bond's most iconic adversary into a childhood spat.
  • Posts: 230
    It's obviously the DAD stuff. It's pretty easy to ignore the brother reveal, whereas it's pretty much impossible to ignore a guy surfing in a tsunami.
  • brinkeguthriebrinkeguthrie Piz Gloria
    Posts: 1,400
    CountJohn wrote: »
    It's obviously the DAD stuff. It's pretty easy to ignore the brother reveal, whereas it's pretty much impossible to ignore a guy surfing in a tsunami.

    yeah I agree with that, I just shrugged it away as a plot device. but the CGI for DAD was terrible. who thought 'gosh that looks GREAT!' when they were editing it for release.
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