SPECTRE: So who's going to play Ernst?

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  • edited October 2014 Posts: 11,119
    OHMSS69 wrote: »
    Besides what would a modern 21st century update of this beloved villain be like?
    He would have to be more like Warren Buffet or the Koch Brothers to mean any real menace nowadays.

    Personally, what I think really worked well with Blofeld was the mystery of the character in his first two films, FRWL and TB. In those films, I think the man wasn't as cheesy yet as we portray him. yes, he had a cat. But it was the entire way of Anthony Dawson's/Eric Pohlmann's acting. His behavior foremost. The parallel with the Siamese fighting fish is very much comparable to Silva's tale of the rats. The way Blofeld reacts after Kronsteen gets killed "One day we have to invent a faster working venom" isn't that far off from Silva's reaction after he kills Severine. The analogies are there.

    But the thing with Blofeld is, that he keeps hiding in the shadows until YOLT. His identity is secret until YOLT. And the way he leads SPECTRE so tightly. His employees, his henchmen and henchwoman, are basically prepared to die for him. How the hell did this almost holy brotherhood exist? It really adds to the menace of the character.

    So as I said before.......I don't want Blofeld to be just "there" as the leading villain. I don't want to compare him at this stage already with the likes of Warren Buffet or the Koch Brothers. Introduce him slowly, preferably as a tiny cameo in the end of "Bond 24" that shows it's not just about Blofeld, but it's about that "mysterious menacing brotherhood operating in the shadows".

    I already have an idea for such a cameo. Like Le Chiffre in CR, also the leading Bond villain in Bond 24 could be killed. Perhaps in an even more groce way. We saw how Bond was tortured in CR. And we saw how Severine was physically and mentally tortured in SF before Silva killed him. Now let's torture the villain at the end of Bond 24, and let him die because of this torture. In a way that make audiences disgust. And than let that "nameless faceless character" walk in, and let him utter some nasty psychotic lines over the villain's dead body.

    I'm not talking about this Blofeld-like character to push buttons like a gay Dr Evil. Let people see the horror of this brotherhood. Cut of his little finger, or his hand, in real. Let the people see some blood flow (some terrorist organizations post online beheading videos, but I don't want to go that far). Then let this failed leading villain panic on screen, and then let him die very slowly on screen because of blood loss. Missing out the entrance of a hospital by an inch.....

    Who needs to play him? Perhaps an unknown actor? Perhaps someone with a distinct deep authoritarian voice? Perhaps someone whose vocal chords have been destroyed in the past by a secret agent? So that he needs to use a voice computer, and that he always needs to be dubbed? Just some ideas. But it isn't even necessary to compare him with other real-life persons at this stage.

    A cameo would suffice in Bond 24. Then perhaps in Bond 25 some larger cameos.

    For me the cheesiness of the character Blofeld really kicked off during YOLT and DAF. They should have kept Anthony Dawson and especially Pohlmann's voice. Because Donald Pleasence was never convincing for me. And later as Dr Evil in Austin Powers. So please, can someone delete those portrayals of Blofeld from my memory?

    Just a quick list of my favourite Bond villains:
    --> Doctor No ("East, West, two spots on the same compass Mr Bond!" Shakespearian)
    --> Blofeld in FRWL ("One day we need to have a faster working venom." utterly suave and sinister line. The parallel with the Siamese fighting fish)
    --> Rosa Klebb (A henchwoman, yes, but IMO the most psychotic, authoritarian henchwoman in the franchise. Actually, the only real female Bond villain for me)
    --> Auric Goldfinger (His final fight with 007. The look on his face. priceless!)
    --> Telly Savalas as Blofeld ("Those pervert British")
    --> Fransisco Scaramanga (the dinner at Scaramanga's villa)
    --> Max Zorin (the way he nods to his henchmen when they want to throw the KGB agent in the pulverizer. Wunderful)
    --> Le Chiffre (the whole frikkin poker game)
    --> Silva / Thiago Rodriguez (the Tell game. And, like Blofeld, another wonderful parallel with animals. This time rats!)

    All other past villains? They don't near the psychoticism of the above villains in the slightest. So now....let's get on with Bond 24. Let's have a splendid leading Bond villain. We know the actor who will play him on December 6th. BUT let's look to the long-term, and let's develop Blofeld again....for a possible reveal in Bond 26 or 27....
  • Posts: 15,106
    Murdock wrote: »
    Bringing back an Iconic villain can be seen as By the numbers and repetitive too in the wake of these reboots. (For good or bad.)

    I've said my reasons time and time again on why I don't want Blofeld back so I'm not going to repeat myself.

    There's a reason why Blofeld is ironic in the first place. And my point is, Bond belongs to a genre and obeys to some of its tropes. A nemesis is part of it and done well (yes there are risks, look at how Khan turned out) it makes Bond's world richer.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Murdock wrote: »
    Bringing back an Iconic villain can be seen as By the numbers and repetitive too in the wake of these reboots. (For good or bad.)

    I've said my reasons time and time again on why I don't want Blofeld back so I'm not going to repeat myself.

    There's a reason why Blofeld is ironic in the first place. And my point is, Bond belongs to a genre and obeys to some of its tropes. A nemesis is part of it and done well (yes there are risks, look at how Khan turned out) it makes Bond's world richer.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Bringing back an Iconic villain can be seen as By the numbers and repetitive too in the wake of these reboots. (For good or bad.)

    I've said my reasons time and time again on why I don't want Blofeld back so I'm not going to repeat myself.

    There's a reason why Blofeld is ironic in the first place. And my point is, Bond belongs to a genre and obeys to some of its tropes. A nemesis is part of it and done well (yes there are risks, look at how Khan turned out) it makes Bond's world richer.

    Blofeld was Iconic for two things SPECTRE and Killing Tracy and changing his face. Nothing that special consider it's technically happened! And I disagree. It doesn't make Bond's world richer, It makes it smaller. Oh look Blofeld's back, looks like he's going to be fighting him in three or so movies. I prefer a good stand alone film that takes Bond on a fresh new mission taking on a new baddie. We've already had a linked story with CR and QoS and look how that went. I'd rather see the Spang Brothers finally given be given some spotlight as they are pretty much the only villains in Flemings canon that haven't been touched.

    What good does bringing Blofeld back do anyway? Remake his story arc from the 60's films? EoN isn't about do overs. It's about keeping with the times and catering their stories to current events. This isn't the 60's anymore.

    You bring Blofeld back, you have to bring Tracy back, because the only reason Blofeld is so special is because he caused the Death of Tracy, his wife. And I don't think any of us want to see OHMSS redone as it was a wonderful film in it's own right.
  • edited October 2014 Posts: 15,106
    Killing Tracy was no small thing. His resilience was no small thing either, neither were the scale of his schemes. Does having a nemesis hurt Sherlock Holmes? How about Batman? Superman? Having Blofeld's back allow to create a new dynamic, not merely Bond gets mission, meets badguy, puts an end to his plan, destroys him, the end. Resilience in a villain, if used sparingly, allows to give an extra layer of menace to the villain, but also to give dimension to the antagonism between Bond and him. And in the novels, we had actually more than one recurring antagonism: yes there was Blofeld, but before him there was SMERSH.

    There are ways to recreate this antagonism without even remaking OHMSS: Blofeld could be among the members of Quantum, hence instrumental to Vesper's breakdown and suicide, for instance. But his resilience as a villain is enough to feed the antagonism. The Joker did not have to kill Bruce Wayne's parents to become a nemesis. And let's not forget that Tracy's murder happened at the very end of the second novel featuring Blofeld, just like in the movies it happened much, much later in the series, when the antagonism was already established. Her murder was Blofeld's consecration as Bond's archenemy, not the trigger. Both in movies and novels, he actually had a life before.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Moreover, I think @Murdock tends to forget that the first Bond timeline has been erased completely (1962 - 2002). With "Casino Royale" (timeline 2006 - now) the Bond producers reinvigorated the franchise completely. Basically, Blofeld...and Tracy, they don't exist anymore, at all. But let's focus on Blofeld. I could start about re-introducing Tracy, but let's not do that just yet hehe :-P.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Moreover, I think @Murdock tends to forget that the first Bond timeline has been erased completely (1962 - 2002). With "Casino Royale" (timeline 2006 - now) the Bond producers reinvigorated the franchise completely. Basically, Blofeld...and Tracy, they don't exist anymore, at all. But let's focus on Blofeld. I could start about re-introducing Tracy, but let's not do that just yet hehe :-P.

    And that too.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    The Joker is a comic book villain who has had many origins, deaths and resurrections. Too much convolution. As with Moriarty getting many different iterations through continuation authors. But I don't care about either. This is strictly about Bond. Bond is nothing like Batman or Sherlock Holmes. They don't share the same universe.

    But Blofeld wasn't instrumental to Vesper's breakdown and Suicide. Mr. White was! People tend to forget that. If anything, He's more of a modern Blofeld. We have no idea where in the chain of power Mr. White is in Quantum. He could be a lacky, or a leader who blends in with the lackies to hide the identity of the leader. He's more interesting. Stick with the cards you have before reaching in to get the wild card.

    @Gustav_Graves, @Ludovico I know it's a reboot. But wasn't the franchise rebooted to wipe the slate clean and tell new adventures without being bound by the past? Revisiting an old villain seems to contradict that. I'd rather Bond move fowards and do something different rather than step backwards and doing something we've already seen many times over. One could argue that Blofeld never died since We've seen Stromburg who was originally supposed to be Blofeld. Drax who's a Blofeld clone with a space station and same outfit. Kamal Khan. Who was like a combination of Blofeld and Dr. No. (wearing the same outfits. Heck even 006 and Elliot Carver were similar to Blofeld and wore black versions of his outfit. I think we've see enough Blofeld in many of the villains. Let's finally break the mold. Silva was refreshing because he was unique and not another Blofeld clone.

    This thread keeps going in circles and I've made my point dozens of times. No use beating a dead horse. Some fans want Blofeld back and others don't. I'm one of them and nobody is going to convince me otherwise. Throw your Joker and Moriarty references all you want. They don't sway my opinion, nor do I care.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Murdock wrote: »
    The Joker is a comic book villain who has had many origins, deaths and resurrections. Too much convolution. As with Moriarty getting many different iterations through continuation authors. But I don't care about either. This is strictly about Bond. Bond is nothing like Batman or Sherlock Holmes. They don't share the same universe.

    But Blofeld wasn't instrumental to Vesper's breakdown and Suicide. Mr. White was! People tend to forget that. If anything, He's more of a modern Blofeld. We have no idea where in the chain of power Mr. White is in Quantum. He could be a lacky, or a leader who blends in with the lackies to hide the identity of the leader. He's more interesting. Stick with the cards you have before reaching in to get the wild card.

    @Gustav_Graves, @Ludovico I know it's a reboot. But wasn't the franchise rebooted to wipe the slate clean and tell new adventures without being bound by the past? Revisiting an old villain seems to contradict that. I'd rather Bond move fowards and do something different rather than step backwards and doing something we've already seen many times over. One could argue that Blofeld never died since We've seen Stromburg who was originally supposed to be Blofeld. Drax who's a Blofeld clone with a space station and same outfit. Kamal Khan. Who was like a combination of Blofeld and Dr. No. (wearing the same outfits. Heck even 006 and Elliot Carver were similar to Blofeld and wore black versions of his outfit. I think we've see enough Blofeld in many of the villains. Let's finally break the mold. Silva was refreshing because he was unique and not another Blofeld clone.

    This thread keeps going in circles and I've made my point dozens of times. No use beating a dead horse. Some fans want Blofeld back and others don't. I'm one of them and nobody is going to convince me otherwise. Throw your Joker and Moriarty references all you want. They don't sway my opinion, nor do I care.

    Let's agree to disagree then :-).
  • Posts: 15,106
    Murdock wrote: »
    The Joker is a comic book villain who has had many origins, deaths and resurrections. Too much convolution. As with Moriarty getting many different iterations through continuation authors. But I don't care about either. This is strictly about Bond. Bond is nothing like Batman or Sherlock Holmes. They don't share the same universe.

    But Blofeld wasn't instrumental to Vesper's breakdown and Suicide. Mr. White was! People tend to forget that. If anything, He's more of a modern Blofeld. We have no idea where in the chain of power Mr. White is in Quantum. He could be a lacky, or a leader who blends in with the lackies to hide the identity of the leader. He's more interesting. Stick with the cards you have before reaching in to get the wild card.

    @Gustav_Graves, @Ludovico I know it's a reboot. But wasn't the franchise rebooted to wipe the slate clean and tell new adventures without being bound by the past? Revisiting an old villain seems to contradict that. I'd rather Bond move fowards and do something different rather than step backwards and doing something we've already seen many times over. One could argue that Blofeld never died since We've seen Stromburg who was originally supposed to be Blofeld. Drax who's a Blofeld clone with a space station and same outfit. Kamal Khan. Who was like a combination of Blofeld and Dr. No. (wearing the same outfits. Heck even 006 and Elliot Carver were similar to Blofeld and wore black versions of his outfit. I think we've see enough Blofeld in many of the villains. Let's finally break the mold. Silva was refreshing because he was unique and not another Blofeld clone.

    This thread keeps going in circles and I've made my point dozens of times. No use beating a dead horse. Some fans want Blofeld back and others don't. I'm one of them and nobody is going to convince me otherwise. Throw your Joker and Moriarty references all you want. They don't sway my opinion, nor do I care.

    You are so wrong about it. Bond owes a lot to Sherlock Holmes. Of course they are different characters, but Conan Doyle influenced Fleming like he influenced, directly or indirectly, crime fiction and other genres after him. Heck, Blofeld owes A LOT to Moriarty. but that is for another topic. Moriarty, by the way, was not used much by Doyle himself: he was used in one novel and especially one short story, and mentioned in other ones. In fact, Blofeld was far more developed in the three novels he was featured in. There is far more to build on from the source material. Because yes, I also mentioned over and over again that I am all for the return of Blofeld if they go back to the source material. And there is worse to do than go back to Fleming to bring fresh ideas. Trying to understand your logic, it is ok to use Moriarty in a Holmes adaptation, because Moriarty was developed outside the canon established by Doyle, but that would be wrong with Blofeld, who is far more developed in the source material than the movies and far more developed than Moriarty... because?

    As for the Vesper connection, it is of course entirely hypothetical. Being part of Quantum would be enough to make him a guilty party, just like in the novels, Bond had a supplementary grip against SMERSH, not a particular individual, when vesper committed suicide. That said, yes, it does not matter. Because Blofeld did not exist solely to kill Tracy. This was the icing on the cake, but not the cake itself. Which you fail to acknowledge. Talk about beating a dead horse.
  • Posts: 15,106
    OHMSS69 wrote: »

    Blofeld was a product of the sixties Bond and other Spy genre films.
    Austin Powers successfully killed any hope of bring him back
    We don't need Blofeld or SPECTRE these days, we still have Quantum and Mr. White

    Blofeld owes far more to Moriarty and Dracula than any spy genre villain. And Dr Evil was a caricature of the movies' Blofeld. NOT the novels'. It is like saying Dracula was ruined as a character was ruined for any subsequent adaptations because of Count Chocula.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    I'm sure this has been covered...but Blofield does NOT have to be bald and petting a kitty. Yes, that characterization of him is too cliche. There's nothing wrong with resurrecting Blofeld in a way that is more emblematic of our times: say, Leonardo DiCaprio, as he was in Wolf of Wall Street: wealthy, arrogant, out of control...with a henchman doing all his dirty work. Dominic Green was sort of like this, but not nearly as menacing or psychotic.
  • RC7RC7
    edited October 2014 Posts: 10,512
    TripAces wrote: »
    I'm sure this has been covered...but Blofield does NOT have to be bald and petting a kitty.

    It's been covered many times, but some people choose to actively ignore it and continue to suggest endless lists of generic bald men as potential Blofelds.
  • Posts: 15,106
    RC7 wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    I'm sure this has been covered...but Blofield does NOT have to be bald and petting a kitty.

    It's been covered many times, but some people choose to actively ignore it and continue to suggest endless lists of generic bald men as potential Blofelds.

    Ironically, it means people against the return of Blofeld have the same vision of him a good number of people for his return.

    I suggest when we debate about who should be cast as Blofeld, we disregard all bald actors. Maybe even balding ones.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I never said going back and adapting Unused Fleming material was bad. I said using stuff we've already seen before would be a waste. Your so keen to use Blofeld and his original backstory. Go ahead. Give him a new name. Lots of unused Fleming villains too.
    I want to see some fresh originality not rehashes or retreads. 8-|
  • Posts: 15,106
    But Blofeld was NOT adapted in the previous series, or rather was transformed to the point of being unrecognizable, with the partial exception of OHMSS. In the movies FRWL and TB, there is too little of him to say he was truly adapted. And why give him a new name if he is a revamped Blofeld, directly adapted from the source material? Especially since the name Blofeld is the very last thing the general public remembers of the spoofed version that spawned Dr. Evil.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    You think too little of the general public. They can be quite smarter than you perceive. Blofeld was adapted just fine from FRWL to OHMSS. It was DAF when he became a goofy caricature.
  • Benedict Cumberbatch
  • Posts: 15,106
    Murdock wrote: »
    You think too little of the general public. They can be quite smarter than you perceive. Blofeld was adapted just fine from FRWL to OHMSS. It was DAF when he became a goofy caricature.

    Good if they can be smarter than I perceive, so they can make the difference between the spoof and the original character, if he is revamped and adapted.

    Blofeld was adapted fine in FRWL, TB and OHMSS. But in the first two, he remained a minor character, in the last one, he still lacked a lot of the grandeur of the novels' Blofeld. In YOLT, he was already a petulant dwarf and a far cry from the source material, or the earlier incarnations.
    scouse007 wrote: »
    Benedict Cumberbatch

    Too young, too associated with the Khan debacle. Not that it was his fault, but he was miscast. As a psycho, he is fine. As a charismatic leader of men, he is still lacking.
  • First of all, lets all familiarize ourselves with the actual Fleming portrayal of Blofeld. As I don't have a copy of Thunderball to quote from directly, here's the Wiki blurb about it:

    He first appears in a minor role as the leader of SPECTRE in the 1961 novel Thunderball. The plot that he formulates is carried out by his second-in-command Emilio Largo. Blofeld is described physically as a massive man, weighing roughly 20 stone (280 lb; 130 kg), has black crew-cut hair, black eyes (similar to those of Benito Mussolini), heavy eyelashes, a thin mouth and long pointed hands and feet. He has violet-scented breath from chewing flavoured cachous (breath mints). A meticulous planner of formidable intellect, he seems to be without conscience but not necessarily insane, and is motivated solely by financial gain. Blofeld's lifestyle is described in one chapter in Thunderball: "For the rest, he didn't smoke or drink and he had never been known to sleep with a member of either sex. He didn't even eat very much."

    Now to me I first image I see is of Danny Huston
    Huston2.jpg
    He's tall, large, crew cut, and as an American he could pull of being a ruthless businessman. However, despite playing Col. Stryker in Wolverine, he's not great at menacing villain acting, and after all, Blofeld is supposed to be Polish, although that is a part of his back story that could be flexed.

    Then I think maybe Jean Reno
    86760.jpg
    He is large, can be very ruthless and evil, while bringing the European feel that I think Blofeld should have. However, he is far too old not I think to play, but he would have done well as a Bond villain.

    Than I think about someone like Vincent Cassel
    Vincent-Cassel-in-Toronto-001.jpg
    He has the right amount of evil, class, and fitness that I think we'd all want in a modern Blofeld. The only problems I can see are that he is rather small, and I'm not sure he can come off as anything other than French, which isn't all bad.

    How do the other pro-Blofelds feel about my line of thinking here? I still don't think I've found a great candidate but its defiantly a new direction...
  • Posts: 15,106
    Reno is too old. Never convinced me as anything else than a brute with a heart of gold. The other too are interesting, esp Cassel.

    When I'm home I will copy/paste the description of Blofeld from TB
  • RC7RC7
    edited October 2014 Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    When I'm home I will copy/paste the description of Blofeld from TB

    I've saved you the job. A few highlights...

    Blofeld’s own eyes were deep black pools surrounded - totally, as Mussolini’s were - by very clear whites. The doll-like effect of this unusual symmetry was enhanced by long silken black eyelashes that should have belonged to a woman. The gaze of these soft doll’s eyes was totally relaxed and rarely held an expression stronger than a mild curiosity in the object of their focus.

    There was no sign of debauchery, illness, or old age on the large, white, bland face under the square, wiry black crew-cut. The jawline, going to the appropriate middle-aged fat of authority, showed decision and independence. Only the mouth, under the heavy, squat nose, marred what might have been the face of a philosopher, or a scientist. Proud and thin, like a badly healed wound, the compressed, dark lips, capable only of false, ugly smiles, suggested, contempt, tyranny, and cruelty. But to an almost Shakespearean degree, nothing about Blofeld was small.

    Blofeld’s body weighed about twenty stone. It had once been all muscle - he had been an amateur weightlifter in his youth - but in the past ten years it had softened and he had a vast belly that he concealed behind roomy trousers and well-cut double-breasted suits.

    Blofeld’s hands were long and pointed.

    He didn’t smoke or drink and he had never been known to sleep with a member of either sex. He didn’t eat very much. So far as vices or physical weaknesses were concerned, Blofeld had always been an enigma to everyone who had known him.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    robert_blake_001_270408.jpg
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Some good suggestions there, I'd really love Blofeld to return to the series with one of these actors. Though some intriguing thing would be to have Blofeld and daughter together. After seeing Snowpiercer I thought Tilda Swinton would be a great daughter of Blofeld.
  • Posts: 15,106
    A few years ago I would have said Ciaran Hinds. Now with the right makeup Mark Addy or Simon Russell Beale. Brits I know. Cassel if he can disguise his accent and look a bit older. And heavier.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Hugo Weaving.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Hugo Weaving.

    It could work, as an OHMSS type Blofeld. He certainly has the voice.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    I would like Jeremy Irons. He has the gravitas for these kind of roles.... Loved him in Margin Call. His on-screen charisma was much larger than many greats who he shared the screen with in that movie, including Kevin Spacey. It's been long enough since he played Simon Gruber.

    He's especially suitable for an intellectual Blofeld who reappears in a few movies, with a # 2 thug played by someone else who's killed off, i.e. like what they did in Thunderball with Adolfo Celi's Largo
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Hugo Weaving.

    I really like this idea.

  • Posts: 15,106
    Jeremy Irons is getting a bit old now though. He could play Blofeld if Blofeld was to be in Bond 24. But that would be it.

    I guess it all depends on how Blofeld would look like: the TB Blofeld, the OHMSS Blofeld or the YOLT Blofeld. I would rather start with a TB looking Blofeld (so heavy, strong and brutish), then at a later date you have an OHMSS looking one (tall, lean and somewhat vampiric). So someone like Mark Addy, Simon Russell Beale (with the right makeup of course) for a first movie with Blofeld and in subsequent ones someone like Hugo Weaving. Although all those I mention may be too British (I know Weaving isn't, but still).
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