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  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    That´s the thing. Lying shouldn´t be that easy, and being caught out should matter. Keeping track of previous statements and not contradicitng yourself are usually things a politician needs to be very careful of. What is striking about Trump´s lies is not only how frequent they are, but also what a horrible bad lier he is, and how blatant it all is. It is baffling that a President and "leader of the free world" (huh!) can get away with it. Are we living in a time when you can get away with anything as long as you are brash and cocky enough?
  • Escalus5Escalus5
    edited June 2018 Posts: 628
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    You are correct, though that's a rather minor part of the whole point I was making, which is that he will flip-flop and change his mind on factual information for no reason whatsoever. You can't claim something is real, then question its authenticity months later. HE said the stuff, he would know better than anyone.

    ... and my point is, better to provide an example where Trump flip-flopped in a speech, an interview or a tweet rather than making stuff up. Otherwise, you play right into the hands of his supporters and their complaints about fake news.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited June 2018 Posts: 12,480
    The reality of reuniting kids with family they are already separated from is much harder, no clear solution, not what we all wish for ... but we need to deal with it and not give up. There are several points discussed within this if you click into it and read through a bit (click on top portion, Asha's, for that discussion - click into middle one she is quoting for other info).
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    You are correct, though that's a rather minor part of the whole point I was making, which is that he will flip-flop and change his mind on factual information for no reason whatsoever. You can't claim something is real, then question its authenticity months later. HE said the stuff, he would know better than anyone.

    ... and my point is, better to provide an example where Trump flip-flopped in a speech, an interview or a tweet rather than making stuff up. Otherwise, you play right into the hands of his supporters and their complaints about fake news.

    What? I made nothing up, I was wrong on how the information was released (Trump spouting it to his supporters, which I initially thought vs. being noted by inside sources). I noted that I was incorrect - good luck finding the Trump base as a whole doing the same.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Isn t flip-flopping the same as noting you were incorrect?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    Not necessarily. Now, if I stuck by the statement and refused to ever provide evidence that he did tell his supporters as much, then yes, that's the same exact thing. Saying something, noticing I was wrong, and accepting the fact is something else entirely. It's not as if I flip-flopped and changed my mind on a stance or anything of the sort.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Not necessarily. Now, if I stuck by the statement and refused to ever provide evidence that he did tell his supporters as much, then yes, that's the same exact thing. Saying something, noticing I was wrong, and accepting the fact is something else entirely. It's not as if I flip-flopped and changed my mind on a stance or anything of the sort.

    I take it back. I flop-flip.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Not necessarily. Now, if I stuck by the statement and refused to ever provide evidence that he did tell his supporters as much, then yes, that's the same exact thing. Saying something, noticing I was wrong, and accepting the fact is something else entirely. It's not as if I flip-flopped and changed my mind on a stance or anything of the sort.

    I take it back. I flop-flip.

    Then I shall flip-flop on your flop-flips regarding flip-flops.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,074
    I've come to the conclusion that my problem with Trump and his administration can be summed up by saying whatever they do appears to me as EVIL. The source of evil being mostly the complete absence of common human empathy, sympathy, or compassion. And this is regardless of conservative or liberal or whatever. Even George W. Bush left the impression of having preserved, deep down, the notion of being a somewhat caring human being, which seems to come out now when he shares his views about Don the Con. It may not absolve him, but better late than never. Reagan was a disaster by international standards, but yes, he was a human being one would like to have a beer with (not knowing if he drank beer). Even Nixon was more of a tragic figure, deeply disturbed, insecure, paranoid - but not evil per se.

    As I mentioned before, I consider myself to be atheist, for all practical purposes. But if the self-styled fundamentalists consider themselves to really be Christians instead of realising they are just hypocrites, and if they truly believe that Trump was God's choice to be president, then I think we should really ponder the notion that Satan may be the lesser of two evils. Any god that makes a creature like Trump the most powerful figure on earth must be completely bonkers.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Well said, @j_w_pepper.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,074
    The jury's still out on this, but I've always advocated leaving Melania alone. The worst thing one can say about her is that she married that moron for whatever reason. But in the present situation I count her among the victims, not the perpetrators. And concentrating on her plagiarisms of Michelle Obama speeches and the like only distracts from the atrocities that her maste...I mean husband commits every two minutes or so. And denies them 30 seconds after.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited June 2018 Posts: 12,480
    Yes, that photo is real, not photoshopped. She doesn't wear things in public without thinking about it. It could be just to stir up another distraction, or this administration could be that stupid. The whole world sees this. As we deal with the current crisis that deserves to be front and center, the separation of children from families. Not just the separation, the care of the children during the whole process - lots of very ugly things are coming to the surface. So yes, we can note Melania's jacket, worn deliberately for whatever reasons (probably more than one); but let's not lose sight of the important issues, what we are fighting for.


    Latest: Trump weighs in saying it is all about condemning "fake news". You really couldn't make this up. Unfortunately, it is the reality we are dealing with. SO NOW that he has given his reason, let's move on. They simply want us talking about the jacket NOT the plight of the children, etc.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited June 2018 Posts: 12,480
    @j_w_pepper, I mostly agree. I would mention some things regarding Melania, but not spend time on her. We need to focus on Trump and Congress. You got love the evil audacity of the spokesperson saying "no hidden agenda." So it is not hidden; just read the ugly message on her jacket.

    Onward we go ..
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited June 2018 Posts: 41,009
    So they're doing it just to incite further argument with the media. Pathetic.

    I also like how it was a "surprise" appearance, yet they had banners awaiting her arrival. Totally not planned to save face as well!

    And still today, Trump yet again blamed the Democrats for what's been going on. Pure madness.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited June 2018 Posts: 12,480
    Anyway, this did happen and is a reminder that citizens make a difference. We need to keep turning up, taking actions ourselves. It does matter.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    NPR also having input into the use of drugs on detained children.
    Link to them is in middle of this ... just click in and scroll down.

    The news we are getting, from a variety of sources, about the care of children who are detained is not pretty. I think important we follow this particular point of concern wherever it leads.
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    edited June 2018 Posts: 3,566
    4EverBonded wrote: »
    ....Not just the separation, the care of the children during the whole process - lots of very ugly things are coming to the surface.....

    I just wanted to bring folks' attention to this one phrase. According to the rumblings I'm hearing and the scattered news reports I've been seeing, there is some very, very ugly stuff about to be made public. Let's start with a request from the Trump admin to the armed forces for facilities to incarcerate 20,000 indefinitely...and we'll move on from there.

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/us/politics/trump-immigration-border-family-separation.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    Uglier than what's been happening in the last few months? Can't wait to see what it is.
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    Posts: 3,566
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Uglier than what's been happening in the last few months? Can't wait to see what it is.

    Look at it this way: we know the Trumpists have about 2500 kids incarcerated...and reports are that they're asking the Pentagon for 20,000 beds. So just take whatever atrocities we already know about, multiply that by 8, and you'll probably have an accurate guess...
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Ok, I think every day there is something worth posting, besides the worst current crisis. though I think the immigrant children situation is the most vitally important. Simply keep in mind this Congress is continuing to do harm ...
    Here's this:
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited June 2018 Posts: 12,480
    Two Republican senators are making arrangements now to travel to Russia and seek some sort of engagement and diplomacy with Putin.
    It's like nobody is bothering to hide much anymore.
    This tweet from retired General Mark Hertling ~

    and this other one:


    Also from Gen. Hertling, @BeatlesSansEarmuffs, re the Pentagon getting involved with housing thousands of immigrant children. The comments/replies have some info of this being done for humanitarian crises in the past. But because this is happening under Trump, I feel instintively this was ordered not only for honest protective care of the children. Anyway, this will be scrutinized.

    Meanwhile two comments I'll put here:
    ***
    Replying to @MarkHertling
    General the question is why Trump waited 14 months into his term to begin a no-tolerance policy? It is because of the timing of the vote in the House. Holding children as political hostages is not same as Cuban/Haitan refugees as one is self-induced and the other was external.

    @MarkHertling
    I don’t disagree about the differences between the two situations. Was only addressing...the military has done this before. My concern is the military is being thrown into the middle of a political issue as well as a crisis.
    ***
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited June 2018 Posts: 12,480
    Some attorneys, Michael Avenetti most notably, are on the ground, in person, trying to help immigrant mothers/fathers reunite with their children who have already been taken from them. It is, in my opinion, a good idea (see his tweet) - but will this actually happen? There is so much money, so much truly BIG business, in the private shelters/camps and prisons that the Trump administration has already contracted with (and continuing to do contracts) to provide "shelters" for these vulnerable children. Why on earth would this administration AND the businesses pocketing huge sums change and suddenly give in, let the kids be reunited with their family member(s)?

    I think only if forced to. Only if huge, continued public demonstrations and all citizens making this a priority and letting Congress know, and the media must get on board, would this larger reunification possibly happen. We need to not get tired or waylaid by the other concerns that are being thrown at us daily.

    Here is his idea, just tweeted:
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    And a reminder that for many companies, and individuals, they are not always (at their core) the "good guys".
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I guess only Satan himself would want to have a meeting with Putin.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    I guess only Satan himself would want to have a meeting with Putin.

    Satan does not meet directly with people. He sends his minions....
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    I guess only Satan himself would want to have a meeting with Putin.

    Satan does not meet directly with people. He sends his minions....

    But you can leave a message if need be.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Trump and Putin are the new Hitler and Stalin, aren t they?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Depends upon how far they ultimately take it...
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Trump has said Melania s jacket is a comment on the media.
This discussion has been closed.