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  • Posts: 1,162
    bondjames wrote: »
    At some point soon the technology will exist (if it doesn't already) to ensure these sort of weapons need some sort of activation code. As an example, if one is on a shooting range or in a hunting zone, then they are activated. If the weapon is in a hotel in the middle of a largely populated area, then they are automatically deactivated.

    Control will increasingly be removed from the individual on account of technology. As I said, it's coming with the autonomous vehicle soon enough.

    Since this would undermine the second amendment considerably, I really don't think that device would have any chance to get mandatory.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    "Like it or not it's also enshrined in the 2nd amendment."

    Unlike the 10 commandments , the 2nd ammendment was created by humans. (yes I know the 10 commandments were also but you get my point) It's just words on paper and can be changed if the political and social will is there. To say it is "enshrined" is a cop out.

    I take your point re insulting but , sometimes it seems that people from outside the USA are more angry about the needless slaughter than you guys. You seem so passive about it. As if it's out of your hands and you have no control over your own destiny.

    The population of Catalonia seem to have more passion and motivation re the political status compared to the USA and guns.

    Whether you like it or not, the bottom line is a certain component of the population value their guns in the US (2nd amendment or not). I have already explained why that is the case in an earlier post. It's cultural.

    At the end of the day, the argument will always exist that 'guns don't kill', 'people do'. That is actually a statement of fact. Someone has to pull that trigger. Just as much a fact as 'religion doesn't kill', 'people do'.

    Just because someone owns a gun doesn't make them a killer and the same goes for someone who worships god.

    Having said that it's true that these assault type weapons have no place in the broader society and should be limited to areas where they can be used for hunting. Are there guns in the hands of the wrong people? Absolutely. Is it too easy to buy a gun? Absolutely. Should there be some restrictions? Certainly, for the greater good.

    I am a believer in personal freedoms in general. Those who behave shouldn't be penalized on account of those who don't as a matter of public policy. Especially when there are other ways to tackle a problem in today's day and age than a blanket ban. However, I agree that the public interest must come first.

    There are way to tailor policy and restrictions to limit the chances/probability of such an occurrence happening again without excessively infringing on personal freedoms. That would be my preferred option. Especially since someone can always find a gun if they really wanted to. It's a question of finesse in the policy measure, as opposed to a blunt approach, accounting for the cultural aspects. The same applies to any policy measure.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 4,617
    We had the same debate after Dunblaine with people from gun clubs up in arms about personal freedom.

    The freedom for people to go to school or enjoy pop concerts without being murdered by a gun is greater than the freedom from a minority to enjoy a hobby.

    Again, (not being personal) but there is this air of arrogance that comes over as if there are no countries that have solved this issue years ago. I am sure there are many people in the UK and around Europe who, given the choice, would love to have an M16 in the garage or an AK47 in the loft. But we decide, for the commion good, to restrict their freedom and we can see the consequences of not doing so.

    Do I look over to the USA and see how great a country it is as they have the freedom to own a gun? or do I look to ourselves and most of Europe and see how great it is to be able to live in a much much safer country where me and my family can walk about with a 20th the chance of being killed by a gun.

    "accounting for cultural aspects", " a question of finesse",

    it's as if we are discussing income tax policy or a tax on plastic bottles rather than the slaughter of innocent people. These events are so horrible, thats its easy for the brain to not take in the horror. You have to force yourself to imagine the scenes or the feelings of the parents. Would anyone want to meet the parent of a murdered child and defend the rights of hobbyists? See below re Sandy Hook. Perhaps actual pictures of their bleeding, lifeless bodies should be published on the web as the actual horror of these events does not seemed to have sunk in to the USA's public conciousness.

    Students

    Charlotte Bacon, 6
    Daniel Barden, 7
    Olivia Engel, 6
    Josephine Gay, 7
    Dylan Hockley, 6
    Madeleine Hsu, 6
    Catherine Hubbard, 6
    Chase Kowalski, 7
    Jesse Lewis, 6
    Ana Márquez-Greene, 6
    James Mattioli, 6
    Grace McDonnell, 7
    Emilie Parker, 6
    Jack Pinto, 6
    Noah Pozner, 6
    Caroline Previdi, 6
    Jessica Rekos, 6
    Avielle Richman, 6
    Benjamin Wheeler, 6
    Allison Wyatt, 6





  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Yes, of course but you are looking at it as a person who doesn't own a gun and a person who comes from a different culture. I see the same thing when you argue against religion.

    I'm not a gun owner (I don't even know how to use one and I'm actually personally against them) and I'm not religious (although my mother is). However, I've lived in the US, as well as the UK, Canada and Africa (Nigeria) in my time. I see differences in culture in all of these places, and I can appreciate how this must frame public policy debate and decisions. The one size fits all approach is not something I advocate for. The terrain is different, the cities and rural landscape are different, the level of security afforded the average citizen is different, the education and risks are different etc. etc.

    I'm in agreement with you that something must be done about the gun problem in the US, but I don't have an ideological leaning on it. Just a public safety one, accounting for the cultural differences. So from my perspective it's a question of taking steps to minimize the chances of a weapon falling into the wrong hands and restricting how, when & where certain weapons can be used.
  • Posts: 19,339
    We see guns everyday here in London,especially assault weapons,but they are held in the hands of the police,nobody else.
  • @patb To answer your question very directly, yes I have sat in the living room with people who have lost loved ones to senseless violence and can say that there is nothing that can console their grief, and having lost family members and friends myself to violence it is something that I can completely understand. On the other hand, no one that I know that owns a firearm is responsible for those lives being lost. At Columbine school there was a video system set up as part of the school system security. Although the film is highly restricted, and generally not available for obvious reasons, it shows the events of that terrible day throughout the school. People used to seeing violence are horrified by what is on that film (myself included), but what is seen are criminal and deranged individuals committing horrific actions and not hobbyist and enthusiast pursuing a sport. You might as well blame racing car drivers for encouraging high speed driving accidents and deaths on city streets and highways. As I said earlier except for television, and movies, most people in the United States are never confronted with gun crime, but it gets big play in the news because it draws an audience. Oddly my niece was mugged in Paris, and my best friend in Berlin, and a martial arts student of mine and his wife were attack while walking through a park in London in broad daylight, so the idea of Europe being safer than any other place in the world is ridiculous.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 4,617
    What if they were to sacrifice their hobby/sport in the interests of saving lives? Would that not be a very noble and adult thing? Are there not 1001 other hobbies to pursue in the USA? Why does their right to pursure their hobby over ride the rights of others to live in a safer country?

    Are those in the UK who would love to shoot guns as a hobby being treated unfairly? Should we be freeing up gun laws in order for them to be enyoying thier hobby?

    It seems strange to me to put the arguments of sport and hobby ahead of the arguments to save the lives of six year olds.

    We have deranged people here in the UK and around Europe. Mental illness is not something unique to the USA . But people with a mental illness and access to guns? That seens to be a USA specialty.
  • Maybe someone knowledgeable could help me understand the gun control debate. Please don’t attack either because I only have my own experience to go on. Not a gun nut by any means.

    I’ve bought one gun in my whole life (my Walther PPK of course!) and I did it with ZERO criminal record while being a Maryland State Trooper. And I still had to pay up front and wait one month for a full background check before I could pick it up and take it home.
    So I mean, obviously gun control is there.

    Is it just lax in other states, or what? I keep reading that the Las Vegas domestic terrorist had like 50+ guns. That’s a ton in my opinion but on the other hand I also keep hearing how he also had a clean record. So what does one do?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Maybe someone knowledgeable could help me understand the gun control debate. Please don’t attack either because I only have my own experience to go on. Not a gun nut by any means.

    I’ve bought one gun in my whole life (my Walther PPK of course!) and I did it with ZERO criminal record while being a Maryland State Trooper. And I still had to pay up front and wait one month for a full background check before I could pick it up and take it home.
    So I mean, obviously gun control is there.

    Is it just lax in other states, or what? I keep reading that the Las Vegas domestic terrorist had like 50+ guns. That’s a ton in my opinion but on the other hand I also keep hearing how he also had a clean record. So what does one do?
    It varies by state. Here is a little bit on it (not sure how accurate it is but Maryland is noted as being more restrictive):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state

    Regarding the perpetrator in Las Vegas, the details are a bit hazy on him. Why haven't we heard anything about his internet use, political inclinations and what not? Curious. I'm sure that information is out there or at least is being investigated, to understand his motives given this was premeditated.

    Indeed, one can't determine who is a likely mass killer based solely on their record. It has to be combined with other factors in my view. There should be a more comprehensive mechanism to determine who can purchase a gun and how many in my humble opinion, just like there is with piloting a plane. The consequences for a bad decision can be catastrophic in both cases.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited October 2017 Posts: 45,489
    Nuclear bombs are also for protection, but obviously everyone can t have them.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Nuclear bombs dont cause death, its the peple who push the button.
  • @patb Your desire to save lives is admirable and despite what you may think of people who own guns that desire is something that I understand. I am a bit perplexed however, with why people who dislike guns find movies with violent scenes and gun play something that they enjoy. There’s something of a social psychological disconnect that I’ll never understand. My current significant other practices Buddhism and won’t watch violent movies, although she is fine with me watching them (I’ll have to keep her I think). We enjoy good drama and comedy together and live theater, but adhering to her desires nothing with overt violence. So I fully appreciate her position, but I’m at a complete loss with people who eschew real world violence but are rapt over silver screen action movies.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    @patb Your desire to save lives is admirable and despite what you may think of people who own guns that desire is something that I understand. I am a bit perplexed however, with why people who dislike guns find movies with violent scenes and gun play something that they enjoy. There’s something of a social psychological disconnect that I’ll never understand. My current significant other practices Buddhism and won’t watch violent movies, although she is fine with me watching them (I’ll have to keep her I think). We enjoy good drama and comedy together and live theater, but adhering to her desires nothing with overt violence. So I fully appreciate her position, but I’m at a complete loss with people who eschew real world violence but are rapt over silver screen action movies.

    indiana-jones-iv.jpg
    Such a great scene, but I don t love atom bombs. Not sure what your point is.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    Regarding the perpetrator in Las Vegas, the details are a bit hazy on him. Why haven't we heard anything about his internet use, political inclinations and what not? Curious. I'm sure that information is out there or at least is being investigated, to understand his motives given this was premeditated.
    Im definitely prepared to not be surprised if/when something comes to light on him.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited October 2017 Posts: 41,009
    @patb Your desire to save lives is admirable and despite what you may think of people who own guns that desire is something that I understand. I am a bit perplexed however, with why people who dislike guns find movies with violent scenes and gun play something that they enjoy. There’s something of a social psychological disconnect that I’ll never understand. My current significant other practices Buddhism and won’t watch violent movies, although she is fine with me watching them (I’ll have to keep her I think). We enjoy good drama and comedy together and live theater, but adhering to her desires nothing with overt violence. So I fully appreciate her position, but I’m at a complete loss with people who eschew real world violence but are rapt over silver screen action movies.

    indiana-jones-iv.jpg
    Such a great scene, but I don t love atom bombs. Not sure what your point is.

    This. It's discerning between reality and a scripted series or film. It's simple. It's the same as saying "you play violent video games, so you must be suppressing an urge to go out and murder countless people."

    That comment is also coming from someone frequenting a James Bond forum, a character who has beat women and killed hundreds and hundreds of people. No violence to be found there!
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 4,617
    @patb Your desire to save lives is admirable and despite what you may think of people who own guns that desire is something that I understand. I am a bit perplexed however, with why people who dislike guns find movies with violent scenes and gun play something that they enjoy. There’s something of a social psychological disconnect that I’ll never understand. My current significant other practices Buddhism and won’t watch violent movies, although she is fine with me watching them (I’ll have to keep her I think). We enjoy good drama and comedy together and live theater, but adhering to her desires nothing with overt violence. So I fully appreciate her position, but I’m at a complete loss with people who eschew real world violence but are rapt over silver screen action movies.

    Perfectly good question but, out of respect for those killed in real events, I'm not sure that discussing fiction is a good idea but a new thread perhaps?
  • @patb Your desire to save lives is admirable and despite what you may think of people who own guns that desire is something that I understand. I am a bit perplexed however, with why people who dislike guns find movies with violent scenes and gun play something that they enjoy. There’s something of a social psychological disconnect that I’ll never understand. My current significant other practices Buddhism and won’t watch violent movies, although she is fine with me watching them (I’ll have to keep her I think). We enjoy good drama and comedy together and live theater, but adhering to her desires nothing with overt violence. So I fully appreciate her position, but I’m at a complete loss with people who eschew real world violence but are rapt over silver screen action movies.

    You sort of answered your own question. One is real, one is not. It's really not hard to distinguish fantasy from reality. I enjoy playing Grand Theft Auto for instance because it's fun but that doesn't mean I want to go and steal cars and kill loads of people and embark on a life of crime in real life. You can enjoy seeing something in a film while recognising how messed up it'd be in real life (e.g. the finale in Kingsman where the whole world starts killing eachother to an 80s pop song).

    I genuinely can't understand why people wouldn't happily give up gun ownership altogether to make their country just that bit safer. Because it wouldn't get rid of shootings entirely? "Well we could help decrease the chance of something horrible happening but it wouldn't stop shootings alrogether, so let me keep my 50 assault rifles, I need them for protection". Or because of a "right" written on a piece of paper written when slavery was still legal? Mental. No other word for it. I don't think I have anything more to say on the issue so I'll see you all in this thread next time (and there will be a next time).
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited October 2017 Posts: 9,117
    @patb Your desire to save lives is admirable and despite what you may think of people who own guns that desire is something that I understand. I am a bit perplexed however, with why people who dislike guns find movies with violent scenes and gun play something that they enjoy. There’s something of a social psychological disconnect that I’ll never understand. My current significant other practices Buddhism and won’t watch violent movies, although she is fine with me watching them (I’ll have to keep her I think). We enjoy good drama and comedy together and live theater, but adhering to her desires nothing with overt violence. So I fully appreciate her position, but I’m at a complete loss with people who eschew real world violence but are rapt over silver screen action movies.

    The most inane post yet (and in this thread I don't say that lightly).

    If there really is such a disconnect between fantasy and reality in the States that people can come out with this drivel then the problem is worse than I thought.

    I can enjoy watching Bond or Red Dwarf but that doesn't mean I want to see my wife get shot in the head or be the last human being left alive marooned 3 million years into deep space!
  • It is interesting to see how players of fantasy games and fictional movies jump to defend their play as innocent. Behavioral studies have found that among some groups in society playing video games with violent segments some people demonstrate a measurable correlation and susceptibility to violence in the games and violent actions being carried out in the real world. No one is suggesting that simply because one enjoys fantasy and fiction that contain violent scenes, that they will commit violent crimes, but rather that some people in society are susceptible to the violence in fantasy and consequently will be violent in society. Similarly gun ownership doesn’t mean that people will be violent, but there are some elements in society that will use firearms to perpetuate violence on society. Gun ownership in and of itself is no more a threat to society than violent fantasy games, but there are individuals who will be violent given any opportunity, and they don’t need a firearm to do it.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/violent-video-games-may-make-kids-more-agressive/
    http://www.momjunction.com/articles/effects-of-video-games-on-teenagers_00352668/#gref
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_controversies
    As far as the comments of “we’ll meet again, no doubt” and “Inane post”, if you want to make this personal you’re posting to the wrong person. Whether you like or dislike guns or like or dislike the 2nd Amendment that’s your issue, I’m usually too busy to post and generally avoid personal forum fighting, it’s boring and a waste of my time.

  • edited October 2017 Posts: 12,837
    Being hypocritical because I said I'd bow out but can't not reply to this.
    No one is suggesting that simply because one enjoys fantasy and fiction that contain violent scenes, that they will commit violent crimes, but rather that some people in society are susceptible to the violence in fantasy and consequently will be violent in society. Similarly gun ownership doesn’t mean that people will be violent, but there are some elements in society that will use firearms to perpetuate violence on society. Gun ownership in and of itself is no more a threat to society than violent fantasy games, but there are individuals who will be violent given any opportunity, and they don’t need a firearm to do it.

    You actually seemed like a fairly reasonable guy up until you posted this. Do you really not understand the difference? Violent movies, games, books, etc, might inspire a someone to be violent if they're not all there. But being able to easily and legally purchase a gun actually gives them the means to do so in a very dangerous, easy way. The whole violent individuals will be violent so gun ownership isn't the problem is a really daft argument too imo. The Vegas shooter would have had much more of a job killing as many as he did if he couldn't buy assault rifles. Violent people will be violent sure but why does that mean we should make it easy for them?

    "Gun ownership in and of itself is no more a threat to society than violent fantasy games" if you honestly believe that then there's no hope for you. A quick google search tells me that GTA V sold 80 million copies. Surely if we follow your logic we'd have seen loads of examples of people attempting to mimic the violence from the game in real life? I know there have been some nutjobs who have but with 80 million copies sold, you'd think there would have been a lot more if the problem was with the game rather than their own mental health.
    It is interesting to see how players of fantasy games and fictional movies jump to defend their play as innocent

    So do you genuinely see watching the Bond films as some sort of sick dark pleasure that you allow yourself to indulge in rather than innocent escapism? Christ.

    Enjoy living here if you want

    http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2F2858772c-a7e1-11e7-ab55-27219df83c97?source=next&fit=scale-down&width=700

    But you'll have a hard time convincing the rest of us that gun ownership in the US isn't a problem, and when you equate owning a dangerous weapon that makes killing easy to playing a violent computer game or watching a violent movie you're really not doing yourself any favors.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    @patb Your desire to save lives is admirable and despite what you may think of people who own guns that desire is something that I understand. I am a bit perplexed however, with why people who dislike guns find movies with violent scenes and gun play something that they enjoy. There’s something of a social psychological disconnect that I’ll never understand. My current significant other practices Buddhism and won’t watch violent movies, although she is fine with me watching them (I’ll have to keep her I think). We enjoy good drama and comedy together and live theater, but adhering to her desires nothing with overt violence. So I fully appreciate her position, but I’m at a complete loss with people who eschew real world violence but are rapt over silver screen action movies.

    The most inane post yet (and in this thread I don't say that lightly).

    If there really is such a disconnect between fantasy and reality in the States that people can come out with this drivel then the problem is worse than I thought.

    I can enjoy watching Bond or Red Dwarf but that doesn't mean I want to see my wife get shot in the head or be the last human being left alive marooned 3 million years into deep space!

    Not now perhaps, but have you really thought it through?
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    Have any of you ever had a loaded gun pointed at your head or a hunting knife held to your throat? I have multiple times. Unfortunately I wasn't carrying a gun for protection just my fists but it could've been really bad..
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited October 2017 Posts: 45,489
    Have any of you ever had a loaded gun pointed at your head or a hunting knife held to your throat? I have multiple times. Unfortunately I wasn't carrying a gun for protection just my fists but it could've been really bad..

    So now you are dead, so sorry to hear that.I too had a knife to my throat at one time.I didn t have a gun either and now I am dead as well.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    @Legionnaire, you do realize you keep spouting that while subsequently frequenting a forum/loving the franchise of films that include countless instances of gore, blood, death, and sex, correct?
  • Posts: 1,314
    I
    @patb I am a bit perplexed however, with why people who dislike guns find movies with violent scenes and gun play something that they enjoy. There’s something of a social psychological disconnect that I’ll never understand.

    No offence, but you're saying you don't understand the difference between fiction and reality which is kind of, dumb.

    It's not really that hard is it?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Matt007 wrote: »
    I
    @patb I am a bit perplexed however, with why people who dislike guns find movies with violent scenes and gun play something that they enjoy. There’s something of a social psychological disconnect that I’ll never understand.

    No offence, but you're saying you don't understand the difference between fiction and reality which is kind of, dumb.

    It's not really that hard is it?

    If you are psychotic, you can t help it .
  • Posts: 1,314
    No but that's a clinical condition isn't it
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited October 2017 Posts: 9,117
    Why even bother having laws at all then?

    Why not say everyone can drive as fast as they want on any road? It will only be a few nutters who do 150mph outside a school and having speed limits is unfair on the rest of us who drive responsibly.

    Why not sell heroin in Tesco? Yes there will always be few who take it too far and end up injecting it 15 times a day into their eyeballs but that shouldn't stop those of us who take it recreationally once a month.

    Surely society would be far more cohesive if we could do exactly whatever we wanted with no justice system except the comforting reassurance that everyone is carrying a .45 Magnum?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I actually like that.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    You've got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky. Well do you p###?
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