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  • Posts: 19,339
    What a totally screwed up situation...seriously.
  • Posts: 7,507
    @CASINOROYALE

    To answer your question:

    The thought of watching anyone "casually strolling around with a shooting weapon" is completely unthinkable in my country. The most you can hope for is getting a permission to buy and own a weapon. To be armed however is illegal in any sircumstance unless you are activily hunting game or practicing in a shooting club. In both cases there are strict regulations for the transportation of said guns. For hunting only rifles are allowed. The only legal reason to own a gun is for specific use in sports in shooting clubs. To get permission to buy your own gun you will have to pass a security course, and be a member of the club for six months with a certain ammount of documented activity inside the club during that period. Only then can the club give you a "recommendation" to buy a private gun and then only for a specific sports genre. Then the police will evaluatw the reccomendation, your records, and have the last say. From then on you will need to document a steady activity in the given sport genre inside the club. Unless your gun will be confiscated. Exact regulations will defer in each country, but this is how it works in the civilized world...

    Now can you answer my question? What is your alternative explanation for the outrageously disproportionat rate of gun related violense, homocides and mass shootings in the US?
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    The issue will only get better when gun manufacturers can be sued for the damage their products do. End of discussion.

    Assault weapons are the only products manufactured for the sole purpose of killing humans. So before we get into the debate of "well, knives kill too" and "trucks kill too" we have to keep in mind that anything, including a broken wine bottle, can be used as a weapon. Difference is, they are not made for that purpose.

    Today's assault rifles (so cleverly called "sporting rifles") and their artillery are designed to tear through bone and rip apart flesh. I would like the NRA, the Rugger company, and the Republicans in Congress who are betrothed to the gun lobby, to be forced to view the medical examiner's photos of the two children killed in that church. An 18-month-old and 5-year-old. I want them to look at the damage inflicted upon those children's bodies and be forced to come to grips with the fact that we allow a product to be designed and manufactured to do exactly what it did to these children.

    End rant.

  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    edited November 2017 Posts: 1,003
    jobo wrote: »
    @CASINOROYALE

    To answer your question:

    The thought of watching anyone "casually strolling around with a shooting weapon" is completely unthinkable in my country. The most you can hope for is getting a permission to buy and own a weapon. To be armed however is illegal in any sircumstance unless you are activily hunting game or practicing in a shooting club. In both cases there are strict regulations for the transportation of said guns. For hunting only rifles are allowed. The only legal reason to own a gun is for specific use in sports in shooting clubs. To get permission to buy your own gun you will have to pass a security course, and be a member of the club for six months with a certain ammount of documented activity inside the club during that period. Only then can the club give you a "recommendation" to buy a private gun and then only for a specific sports genre. Then the police will evaluatw the reccomendation, your records, and have the last say. From then on you will need to document a steady activity in the given sport genre inside the club. Unless your gun will be confiscated. Exact regulations will defer in each country, but this is how it works in the civilized world...

    Now can you answer my question? What is your alternative explanation for the outrageously disproportionat rate of gun related violense, homocides and mass shootings in the US?

    Where do you live if I may ask?

    I personally think it’s just American culture. I was lucky enough to travel all over the USA for Basketball. I have seen different areas good and bad. The problem is that there are bad people out there who have access to guns.

    Typically if you do some research this is what you’ll notice in a murder or shooting in the USA.

    Whites: Typically have some sort of mental illness or they are on a drug.

    Mexican/African Americans: It’s normally gang related. Drugs are normally involved. It’s almost always in a bad area. Inner city/hood.

    Immigrants: It’s terrorism or religious reasons.


    Solution? Clean up the inner cities and the hoods. A majority of those areas are run by drug lords, prostitution and gangs. The government needs to be more involved in those areas.

    Overall gun buyers must take a mental exam to make sure they are mentally capable of owning a firearm. People need to be aware if the buyer has a history of violence, arrests/convictions, are they on any medication or have any previous mental health issues?

    Immigrants. I don’t necessarily think we need a travel ban. I do believe anyone coming in from hostile areas should be heavily screened and checked out.

    Overall the government needs to do a better job heavily screening anyone who is a potential threat. I cannot believe the fbi and law enforcement had advanced knowledge of most mass shooters... Sandy hook shooter hacked the fbi computer systems and was visited by the fbi!! It was just released by the government. There’s also a lot more to it. I have also noticed that a lot of shooters will take guns from someone else. Maybe if you have a felon living with you or someone with a mental health issue you should also be banned from owning a gun? There’s a lot that can be done to fix crime and murder.


    It’s easier to get a gun then get into college. Although many people believe buying a gun is no different than buying smokes or booze.




  • Posts: 7,653
    Mental illness is decided how??- If you are depressive do you have to hand over the guns?

    CR when you mean a gun as a farmer I do not mind really, you were the one bragging about a friend who owned 50 guns. What is he expecting?- An invasion of Livestock?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2017 Posts: 15,716
    Typically if you do some research this is what you’ll notice in a murder or shooting in the USA.

    Whites: Typically have some sort of mental illness or they are on a drug.

    Mexican/African Americans: It’s normally gang related. Drugs are normally involved. It’s almost always in a bad area. Inner city/hood.

    In which of these 2 population categories would you put Charlize Theron in?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,790
    Charlize Theron is an African-American. Of course. Though atypical in many ways.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 7,507
    jobo wrote: »
    @CASINOROYALE

    To answer your question:

    The thought of watching anyone "casually strolling around with a shooting weapon" is completely unthinkable in my country. The most you can hope for is getting a permission to buy and own a weapon. To be armed however is illegal in any sircumstance unless you are activily hunting game or practicing in a shooting club. In both cases there are strict regulations for the transportation of said guns. For hunting only rifles are allowed. The only legal reason to own a gun is for specific use in sports in shooting clubs. To get permission to buy your own gun you will have to pass a security course, and be a member of the club for six months with a certain ammount of documented activity inside the club during that period. Only then can the club give you a "recommendation" to buy a private gun and then only for a specific sports genre. Then the police will evaluatw the reccomendation, your records, and have the last say. From then on you will need to document a steady activity in the given sport genre inside the club. Unless your gun will be confiscated. Exact regulations will defer in each country, but this is how it works in the civilized world...

    Now can you answer my question? What is your alternative explanation for the outrageously disproportionat rate of gun related violense, homocides and mass shootings in the US?

    Where do you live if I may ask?

    I personally think it’s just American culture. I was lucky enough to travel all over the USA for Basketball. I have seen different areas good and bad. The problem is that there are bad people out there who have acces to guns.

    Exactly. Acces to guns. Not only guns but assault rifles.

    The rest of the world also has criminals and mentaly unstable people. However, if you limit the existence of guns you drastically limit their posed threat. This is not a thesis. It is documented.

    To make sure only "good people" have guns is a hopeless task. Who are to judge who are good and bad? How can you know? How can you be certain someone are incapable of ever comitting a violent crime? People can be bad without a criminal record. People can be mentaly unstable or develop mental instability without a diagnose or medical record. People with the best of intentions can be led to comitt violence, and people have comitted outrageous actions with the best of intentions. The last killer was a former member of the US Air Force. In other words he has previously fought in what most americans will tell you is in the purpose of 'good'.

    The solutions is to limit the sirculation of shooting weapons. The rest of the world understood it long ago.

    I am from Norway btw.
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Mental illness is decided how??- If you are depressive do you have to hand over the guns?

    CR when you mean a gun as a farmer I do not mind really, you were the one bragging about a friend who owned 50 guns. What is he expecting?- An invasion of Livestock?

    https://www.google.com/amp/amp.thedenverchannel.com/2391640120/texas-shooting-devin-kelley-bought-2-guns-was-charged-with-beating-and-dragging-dog-in-colorado.html

    Id say animal cruelty and assaulting his baby and wife qualify?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    People like THIS own guns. Now just imagine this guy with misanthropic/anger issues TOO...
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    He bought the gun from academy.
    How is this legally allowed wow?!

    https://www.academy.com/shop/browse/shooting/firearms/modern-sporting-rifles--1
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    He bought the gun from academy.
    How is this legally allowed wow?!

    https://www.academy.com/shop/browse/shooting/firearms/modern-sporting-rifles--1

    SPORTING rifles?!?!?!? lB5wmMp.png
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    chrisisall wrote: »
    He bought the gun from academy.
    How is this legally allowed wow?!

    https://www.academy.com/shop/browse/shooting/firearms/modern-sporting-rifles--1

    SPORTING rifles?!?!?!? lB5wmMp.png

    Assault weapons from an academy..
    I’m a gun advocate but damn.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    chrisisall wrote: »
    People like THIS own guns. Now just imagine this guy with misanthropic/anger issues TOO...

    They should make a tv show with this guy. I want to see him drive a car, iron his clothes , climb a ladder etc.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Where to start wading through this morass of insanity? Its a good job I'm on nightshift and have got nothing better to do.
    Pretty common in the country you first start shooting at around 12-13.

    Children shooting guns is 'pretty common'. In African warzones and South American favelas maybe.
    I live near Austin in a city area and people casually walk around with pistols on a regular basis. People do not carry assault rifles in public or shotguns. It’s not un-common to see people with hand guns just casually strolling around. Maybe it’s just the culture. I am sure there are things I might find unusual or weird overseas in certain towns.

    'Just casually strolling around'. As you do.
    No you cannot goto Walmart and throw $20 at a cash register and they give you a gun. It’s not that simple.

    I trust you've never seen the scene in the bank from Bowling For Columbine when they are giving them away for free then?
    Most mass shootings the guns fall into the hands of the wrong people.

    As opposed to all those other mass shootings where guns fall into the hands of the right people.
    I don’t think you understand..
    If you live out in the country you need a gun. If you have livestock and make a living off of that you have to worry about your animals being killed by snakes, coyotes and other wild animals. Farmers and ranchers need them. Maybe you haven’t experienced what it’s like to be out in the middle of no where but it’s pretty much a necessity. I can’t imagine any farmers/ranchers overseas not having a rifle or pistol. Not like you can just call the police and say oh no a snake is eating my chickens come out and take care of it.

    Starting to really flail now. Your argument a few pages back was that people need guns (including your octogenarian aunt) to protect themselves. Now you're falling back on the only people that might legitimately use a gun as a useful tool. But a) theres a hell of a lot of people out there who arent farmers who are packing and b) if youre a farmer a shotgun and a rifle are more than ample to shoot vermin - you dont need a hoard of 50 guns or an assault rifle.
    The problem is that there are bad people out there who have access to guns.

    Finally a nugget of sanity. Perhaps making it much, much harder for these bad people to get access to guns might be a start?
    Whites: Typically have some sort of mental illness or they are on a drug.

    Mexican/African Americans: It’s normally gang related. Drugs are normally involved. It’s almost always in a bad area. Inner city/hood.

    Immigrants: It’s terrorism or religious reasons.

    Who knew it was so simple? It's amazing they haven't sorted it yet when the problems are as cut and dried as this.
    Overall gun buyers must take a mental exam to make sure they are mentally capable of owning a firearm.

    You only need one question on the exam paper: 'Do you want to own a gun?' Answer 'Yes' and you fail.
    Immigrants. I don’t necessarily think we need a travel ban. I do believe anyone coming in from hostile areas should be heavily screened and checked out.

    Except its not the immigrants shooting people - its your own citizens. The clown who nearly mowed me down in NYC last week only had an air gun as he was probably too brown and muslim to pass the stringent gun owning criteria to get himself properly tooled.
    He bought the gun from academy.
    How is this legally allowed wow?!

    Wow indeed. Thats what we've been saying for the last million posts. Good to see you finally coming round to a bit of common sense.
  • Posts: 4,615
    I think it was the church's fault for having weak security at the entrance. Just the same as the hotel on Vegas.
  • Posts: 7,507
    patb wrote: »
    I think it was the church's fault for having weak security at the entrance. Just the same as the hotel on Vegas.


    The way I see it there are two problems:

    1) Not enough priests are armed. It is their responsibility to protect their community. We need to make sure all priests are armed with assault guns by law. In the name of God!

    2) They were not praying enough in church. That is why they need our prayers now. Lets send our thoughts and prayers everyone!
  • Posts: 4,615
    X-Ray machines at all church entrances. Plus a Mark 15 Vulcan Phalanx system in the Pulpit with a clear line of fire. Optional sniper in the clock tower to "take down" the bad guy as they try to escape.
    Free Walther with every Bible for close protection? Perhaps a little OTT?
  • Posts: 7,507
    patb wrote: »
    X-Ray machines at all church entrances. Plus a Mark 15 Vulcan Phalanx system in the Pulpit with a clear line of fire. Optional sniper in the clock tower to "take down" the bad guy as they try to escape.
    Free Walther with every Bible for close protection? Perhaps a little OTT?


    Nah. The NRA approves. That's what matters at the end of the day.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    jobo wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    I think it was the church's fault for having weak security at the entrance. Just the same as the hotel on Vegas.


    The way I see it there are two problems:

    1) Not enough priests are armed. It is their responsibility to protect their community. We need to make sure all priests are armed with assault guns by law. In the name of God!

    2) They were not praying enough in church. That is why they need our prayers now. Lets send our thoughts and prayers everyone!
    patb wrote: »
    X-Ray machines at all church entrances. Plus a Mark 15 Vulcan Phalanx system in the Pulpit with a clear line of fire. Optional sniper in the clock tower to "take down" the bad guy as they try to escape.
    Free Walther with every Bible for close protection? Perhaps a little OTT?

    Lovely stuff chaps.

    Although Bond way ahead of you @patb as in GF Fleming tells us how he conceals his PPK in a book entitled 'The Bible Designed to be Read as Literature' for the best of both worlds for the parishioner who wants to stay pious and protected.

    You have to laugh at these religious nutters. They've got God on their side so you'd think that would be all the protection they'd need but rather than have a batphone to the top man so they call in an airstrike of lightning bolts whenever a nutter rocks into town they prefer to carry their own arms to deal with it. Suggests praying might be utterly useless?
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    Escaped from a mental facility in 2012 and was in for bringing guns to his military base with the intent to kill fellow soldiers.. Just gets better and better. How many more red flags do we need? Also appears he was arrested by the military and in a military court that’s why they failed to report he was a felon which would’ve disallowed him to buy a gun. Just fantastic.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/post-nation/wp/2017/11/07/as-texas-town-mourns-details-emerge-on-gunmans-methodical-tactics-in-church-massacre/
  • Posts: 19,339
    So he did all that and STILL managed to get 3 guns ?!

    Absolutely baffling.
    8-X
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Escaped from a mental facility in 2012 and was in for bringing guns to his military base with the intent to kill fellow soldiers.. Just gets better and better. How many more red flags do we need? Also appears he was arrested by the military and in a military court that’s why they failed to report he was a felon which would’ve disallowed him to buy a gun. Just fantastic.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/post-nation/wp/2017/11/07/as-texas-town-mourns-details-emerge-on-gunmans-methodical-tactics-in-church-massacre/

    If gun shops weren't as ubiquitous as McDonald's on every block then perhaps he might have had a harder time getting hold of one?
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    barryt007 wrote: »
    So he did all that and STILL managed to get 3 guns ?!

    Absolutely baffling.
    8-X

    All because the military courts failed to register him as a felon.
  • Posts: 19,339
    barryt007 wrote: »
    So he did all that and STILL managed to get 3 guns ?!

    Absolutely baffling.
    8-X

    All because the military courts failed to register him as a felon.

    That seems to be a major error in the system,as this is escalating all the time now.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    barryt007 wrote: »
    So he did all that and STILL managed to get 3 guns ?!

    Absolutely baffling.
    8-X

    All because the military courts failed to register him as a felon.

    yep, it isn't because you can't destinguish those who are about to go and kill people from those who aren't because everyone wants to look like a cowboy, it's because of the military courts!!!

    You have previously mentioned that you understand assault rifles shouldn't be in the public domain. Well guess what, that's called 'gun control'. Having more control over your guns.

    The thing is, in most countries people aren't expected to 'need to protect' themselves, that's what the police is for. And thus the police's task is a lot easier: anyone with a gun out in the street is a suspect. Because you don't need it there. On the farm? Perhaps, but a rifle should be enough out there. You like shooting? do it on a range, on a club, fine. But not when you're mentally ill.

    Does this prevent shootings completely? No. But the numbers are just not on your side. The USA has one of the highest killing statistics per 100.000 people, not of Western countries, but of the world. Only beeing outclassed by south American- and failed states.

    You're talking about 'bad people', as if those were born like that. The thing is, that's just not the case. most shootings have a social background. People who are angry because they lost their job, were cheated on, etc .etc. And that could happen to anyone.

    The amazing thing is you still think it went 'well' because 'more people could've died' but the gunman was shot by passers-by. It took 26, I repeat, 26 people before he was stopped. 26!!!!! And why? Because Americans still think they live in the 1800's, and instead of paying a little more taxes so they can have police in every town they want to go all cowboy. There's no country as obsessed with killing as Americans.

    But hell, these 26 were all baptists, and those are staunch supporters of as-liberal gun laws so they can 'defend' themselves from people like their neighbours who had a bad day.
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,812
    barryt007 wrote: »
    So he did all that and STILL managed to get 3 guns ?!

    Absolutely baffling.
    8-X

    All because the military courts failed to register him as a felon.

    yep, it isn't because you can't destinguish those who are about to go and kill people from those who aren't because everyone wants to look like a cowboy, it's because of the military courts!!!

    You have previously mentioned that you understand assault rifles shouldn't be in the public domain. Well guess what, that's called 'gun control'. Having more control over your guns.

    The thing is, in most countries people aren't expected to 'need to protect' themselves, that's what the police is for. And thus the police's task is a lot easier: anyone with a gun out in the street is a suspect. Because you don't need it there. On the farm? Perhaps, but a rifle should be enough out there. You like shooting? do it on a range, on a club, fine. But not when you're mentally ill.

    Does this prevent shootings completely? No. But the numbers are just not on your side. The USA has one of the highest killing statistics per 100.000 people, not of Western countries, but of the world. Only beeing outclassed by south American- and failed states.

    You're talking about 'bad people', as if those were born like that. The thing is, that's just not the case. most shootings have a social background. People who are angry because they lost their job, were cheated on, etc .etc. And that could happen to anyone.

    The amazing thing is you still think it went 'well' because 'more people could've died' but the gunman was shot by passers-by. It took 26, I repeat, 26 people before he was stopped. 26!!!!! And why? Because Americans still think they live in the 1800's, and instead of paying a little more taxes so they can have police in every town they want to go all cowboy. There's no country as obsessed with killing as Americans.

    But hell, these 26 were all baptists, and those are staunch supporters of as-liberal gun laws so they can 'defend' themselves from people like their neighbours who had a bad day.

    I'm an American and I give you this...

    https://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif?noredirect
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited November 2017 Posts: 9,117
    The amazing thing is you still think it went 'well' because 'more people could've died' but the gunman was shot by passers-by. It took 26, I repeat, 26 people before he was stopped. 26!!!!! And why? Because Americans still think they live in the 1800's, and instead of paying a little more taxes so they can have police in every town they want to go all cowboy.

    Love how the stock answer that keeps being wheeled out is 'we need guns because how else can you stop someone with a gun' as if people rampaging round with guns is a problem that has no solution so if you don't arm yourself it's inevitable you will get shot.

    Rather than just escalate the arms race maybe think about taking measures to stop anybody getting hold of guns in the first place?
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited November 2017 Posts: 2,722
    Obviously the availability of assault rifles is a major issue that should really be resolved. But I think a valid point has been raised about the culture of guns. This is something that is the most alien element to me. I'm not from the U.S - but I have travelled through it and visited many times.

    It is a massive, diverse country that has so many sub-cultures within it. Having recently been in San Francisco you could be excused for thinking you weren't in Trump's America at all but closer to a European metropolis. However visiting somewhere like Missouri or Kansas as I've done before and it feels like a different country.

    It's the festishization of guns, the obsessive 'the government are trying to take my guns away' that is really little more than a paranoid addiction. There are plenty of other countries around the world where people own guns and where mass shootings occur but I can't think of anywhere else where the guns themselves are elevated to a near religious status. This leads into why it is near impossible to add further regulation anymore because the lawmakers will be met with such hostility that re-election for them would unthinkable.
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    barryt007 wrote: »
    So he did all that and STILL managed to get 3 guns ?!

    Absolutely baffling.
    8-X

    All because the military courts failed to register him as a felon.

    yep, it isn't because you can't destinguish those who are about to go and kill people from those who aren't because everyone wants to look like a cowboy, it's because of the military courts!!!

    You have previously mentioned that you understand assault rifles shouldn't be in the public domain. Well guess what, that's called 'gun control'. Having more control over your guns.

    The thing is, in most countries people aren't expected to 'need to protect' themselves, that's what the police is for. And thus the police's task is a lot easier: anyone with a gun out in the street is a suspect. Because you don't need it there. On the farm? Perhaps, but a rifle should be enough out there. You like shooting? do it on a range, on a club, fine. But not when you're mentally ill.

    Does this prevent shootings completely? No. But the numbers are just not on your side. The USA has one of the highest killing statistics per 100.000 people, not of Western countries, but of the world. Only beeing outclassed by south American- and failed states.

    You're talking about 'bad people', as if those were born like that. The thing is, that's just not the case. most shootings have a social background. People who are angry because they lost their job, were cheated on, etc .etc. And that could happen to anyone.

    The amazing thing is you still think it went 'well' because 'more people could've died' but the gunman was shot by passers-by. It took 26, I repeat, 26 people before he was stopped. 26!!!!! And why? Because Americans still think they live in the 1800's, and instead of paying a little more taxes so they can have police in every town they want to go all cowboy. There's no country as obsessed with killing as Americans.

    But hell, these 26 were all baptists, and those are staunch supporters of as-liberal gun laws so they can 'defend' themselves from people like their neighbours who had a bad day.

    Since you are all about statistics you’d know that a majority of all crime in America are committed by African American males. The rap and gang culture is a lot higher in America than any country in the world. Okay mass shootings typically are carried out by a white male sure.

    I wish there were cops in every town in Texas but that’s not how it works. Is that my problem or the people who died?

    Statistically most mass shootings end in under 15 minutes. Nearest police were 15-20 minutes away. They say the gun man fire 450 bullets. I’d imagine the police were called fast. It was over by the time they could arrive..

    Yeah the gunman was also reloading and about to go back in the church but was stopped. Guess how many people survived? Twenty! So yes if it weren’t for that innocent bystander with a gun 46 people would be dead instead of 26.

    He saved lives. I don’t understand what you expect people in a town in the middle of nowhere to do? No police in their town. A mass shooting happens? Nearest cop is 20 minutes away. Hmm.

    Oh yeah just wait it out though right.. okay.
This discussion has been closed.