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  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    barryt007 wrote: »
    So he did all that and STILL managed to get 3 guns ?!

    Absolutely baffling.
    8-X

    All because the military courts failed to register him as a felon.

    yep, it isn't because you can't destinguish those who are about to go and kill people from those who aren't because everyone wants to look like a cowboy, it's because of the military courts!!!

    You have previously mentioned that you understand assault rifles shouldn't be in the public domain. Well guess what, that's called 'gun control'. Having more control over your guns.

    The thing is, in most countries people aren't expected to 'need to protect' themselves, that's what the police is for. And thus the police's task is a lot easier: anyone with a gun out in the street is a suspect. Because you don't need it there. On the farm? Perhaps, but a rifle should be enough out there. You like shooting? do it on a range, on a club, fine. But not when you're mentally ill.

    Does this prevent shootings completely? No. But the numbers are just not on your side. The USA has one of the highest killing statistics per 100.000 people, not of Western countries, but of the world. Only beeing outclassed by south American- and failed states.

    You're talking about 'bad people', as if those were born like that. The thing is, that's just not the case. most shootings have a social background. People who are angry because they lost their job, were cheated on, etc .etc. And that could happen to anyone.

    The amazing thing is you still think it went 'well' because 'more people could've died' but the gunman was shot by passers-by. It took 26, I repeat, 26 people before he was stopped. 26!!!!! And why? Because Americans still think they live in the 1800's, and instead of paying a little more taxes so they can have police in every town they want to go all cowboy. There's no country as obsessed with killing as Americans.

    But hell, these 26 were all baptists, and those are staunch supporters of as-liberal gun laws so they can 'defend' themselves from people like their neighbours who had a bad day.

    Since you are all about statistics you’d know that a majority of all crime in America are committed by African American males. The rap and gang culture is a lot higher in America than any country in the world. Okay mass shootings typically are carried out by a white male sure.

    I wish there were cops in every town in Texas but that’s not how it works. Is that my problem or the people who died?

    Statistically most mass shootings end in under 15 minutes. Nearest police were 15-20 minutes away. They say the gun man fire 450 bullets. I’d imagine the police were called fast. It was over by the time they could arrive..

    Yeah the gunman was also reloading and about to go back in the church but was stopped. Guess how many people survived? Twenty! So yes if it weren’t for that innocent bystander with a gun 46 people would be dead instead of 26.

    He saved lives. I don’t understand what you expect people in a town in the middle of nowhere to do? No police in their town. A mass shooting happens? Nearest cop is 20 minutes away. Hmm.

    Oh yeah just wait it out though right.. okay.

    There are places in the highlands of Scotland where the nearest police are probably 2 hours away and guess what - not that many people get shot.

    I would say most violent incidents are over in a matter of minutes if not seconds so the police are utterly useless in 99% of cases and just come and cleanup the aftermath so why not just disband them altogether and use the money you save to issue everyone from toddlers to pensioners with guns to protect themselves?

    I would imagine for a concert like the one in Vegas the police were on scene for crowd control, but they didn't help much did they so the argument about police response time is pretty irrelevant. However I can understand you desperately clinging to it as this time the public having guns probably saved lives so in your mind case closed - easy access to guns saves lives (even though without a nutter having easy access to guns in the first place lives would not have needed saving).
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    edited November 2017 Posts: 1,003
    barryt007 wrote: »
    So he did all that and STILL managed to get 3 guns ?!

    Absolutely baffling.
    8-X

    All because the military courts failed to register him as a felon.

    yep, it isn't because you can't destinguish those who are about to go and kill people from those who aren't because everyone wants to look like a cowboy, it's because of the military courts!!!

    You have previously mentioned that you understand assault rifles shouldn't be in the public domain. Well guess what, that's called 'gun control'. Having more control over your guns.

    The thing is, in most countries people aren't expected to 'need to protect' themselves, that's what the police is for. And thus the police's task is a lot easier: anyone with a gun out in the street is a suspect. Because you don't need it there. On the farm? Perhaps, but a rifle should be enough out there. You like shooting? do it on a range, on a club, fine. But not when you're mentally ill.

    Does this prevent shootings completely? No. But the numbers are just not on your side. The USA has one of the highest killing statistics per 100.000 people, not of Western countries, but of the world. Only beeing outclassed by south American- and failed states.

    You're talking about 'bad people', as if those were born like that. The thing is, that's just not the case. most shootings have a social background. People who are angry because they lost their job, were cheated on, etc .etc. And that could happen to anyone.

    The amazing thing is you still think it went 'well' because 'more people could've died' but the gunman was shot by passers-by. It took 26, I repeat, 26 people before he was stopped. 26!!!!! And why? Because Americans still think they live in the 1800's, and instead of paying a little more taxes so they can have police in every town they want to go all cowboy. There's no country as obsessed with killing as Americans.

    But hell, these 26 were all baptists, and those are staunch supporters of as-liberal gun laws so they can 'defend' themselves from people like their neighbours who had a bad day.

    Since you are all about statistics you’d know that a majority of all crime in America are committed by African American males. The rap and gang culture is a lot higher in America than any country in the world. Okay mass shootings typically are carried out by a white male sure.

    I wish there were cops in every town in Texas but that’s not how it works. Is that my problem or the people who died?

    Statistically most mass shootings end in under 15 minutes. Nearest police were 15-20 minutes away. They say the gun man fire 450 bullets. I’d imagine the police were called fast. It was over by the time they could arrive..

    Yeah the gunman was also reloading and about to go back in the church but was stopped. Guess how many people survived? Twenty! So yes if it weren’t for that innocent bystander with a gun 46 people would be dead instead of 26.

    He saved lives. I don’t understand what you expect people in a town in the middle of nowhere to do? No police in their town. A mass shooting happens? Nearest cop is 20 minutes away. Hmm.

    Oh yeah just wait it out though right.. okay.

    There are places in the highlands of Scotland where the nearest police are probably 2 hours away and guess what - not that many people get shot.

    I would say most violent incidents are over in a matter of minutes if not seconds so the police are utterly useless in 99% of cases and just come and cleanup the aftermath so why not just disband them altogether and use the money you save to issue everyone from toddlers to pensioners with guns to protect themselves?

    I would imagine for a concert like the one in Vegas the police were on scene for crowd control, but they didn't help much did they so the argument about police response time is pretty irrelevant. However I can understand you desperately clinging to it as this time the public having guns probably saved lives so in your mind case closed - easy access to guns saves lives (even though without a nutter having easy access to guns in the first place lives would not have needed saving).

    Not sure if you have ever been to a “hood” or ghetto area in America. I’d imagine it’s a little different than Scotland. You can goto liveleak and watch all out gang wars with assault rifles and a ton of other crazy gang shootings. I will say I am not surprised about Vegas happening but the Texas shooting is a shock.

    Who would have ever thought the next mass shooting would be in a tiny Texas town full of 600 people? I think we can all agree no one needs an assault rifle.

    Also have to say that military courts/police not registering felony criminals, or letting the police know a soldier had an arsenal of weapons with the intent to perform a mass attack, is a major issue. Hopefully the victims family sues.

    Although, If assault rifles were illegal and not sold in stores he most likely could’ve gone to the academy store and bought handguns and a hunting rifle. Hunting rifles can be purchased at 18 in Texas and pistols can be legally concealed in an 18 year olds vehicle. You have to be 21 to legally purchase a handgun however. Would’ve been incredibly easy for him to buy any of these guns.

    Guns will never be taken away from anyone because “Its an American right”, sigh.

    Could better security have stopped the Vegas shooter from entering a popular hotel with 20+ assault rifles? Could banning assault rifles completely have prevented any of these attacks? Would the shooters still find a way to obtain these guns through the black market?

    Could they still get a handgun or hunting rifle and kill innocent civilians?

    Are people getting inspired by previous mass shootings?
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    USA - 5% of the world population, yet apparently around 31% of mass shootings occur there. Disproportionate in the extreme wouldn't you agree?

    Talk about a country burying it's head in the sand.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Yeah, the American fascination with weapons is baffling. People collect assault guns like if they were art decoration, admiring their collection of items that are made with the sole purpose of killing as effectively and brutally as possible. We even have a few members on this forum who post pictures of their weapon collection and brag about it.

    How has this worshipping of weapons anything to do with a rational intent or need for self defence? It is completely mental and sickening, that's what it is!
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    Wanna hear something crazy about the culture here? Went to a military town Fort hood for a wedding. My friend and his brother are both marines. Anyways I give him a ride back to his place and we crashed. Goto breakfast the next morning and he asked our waitress out on a date. She said what do you wanna do? And he tells her “We could go shooting?” And she was like “That sounds awesome let’s do it!” Later that day he calls me claiming he left a gun in my car... I didn’t even know he had one on him. I check under my seats and sure enough there’s a pistol loaded under my seat. That’s America for you. Where a date is shooting at the range. I’m not that crazy. I don’t even own a gun.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,790
    She was probably hot.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    Wanna hear something crazy about the culture here? Went to a military town Fort hood for a wedding. My friend and his brother are both marines. Anyways I give him a ride back to his place and we crashed. Goto breakfast the next morning and he asked our waitress out on a date. She said what do you wanna do? And he tells her “We could go shooting?” And she was like “That sounds awesome let’s do it!” Later that day he calls me claiming he left a gun in my car... I didn’t even know he had one on him. I check under my seats and sure enough there’s a pistol loaded under my seat. That’s America for you. Where a date is shooting at the range. I’m not that crazy. I don’t even own a gun.

    But you are defending this culture. Could the mass shootings be prefented by banning (semi)autimatic guns? Yes, it could. Australia proves this. And like rural USA, rural Australia has few police, many towms without. But since they banned (semi) automatic guns they haven't had a mass shooting.

    Imagine this guy coming into the church with only a hand gun. He wouldn't have been able to kill 26 people. Maybe six. That's 20 people more living then now.

    The gangs? well they get those machineguns because they're readily availeable on the market.

    Would gun violence dissapear? no. But it would be a lot, a lot less.

    And those who love guns would still be able to go to their shooting club/range.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2017 Posts: 17,797
    Wanna hear something crazy about the culture here? Went to a military town Fort hood for a wedding. My friend and his brother are both marines. Anyways I give him a ride back to his place and we crashed. Goto breakfast the next morning and he asked our waitress out on a date. She said what do you wanna do? And he tells her “We could go shooting?” And she was like “That sounds awesome let’s do it!” Later that day he calls me claiming he left a gun in my car... I didn’t even know he had one on him. I check under my seats and sure enough there’s a pistol loaded under my seat. That’s America for you. Where a date is shooting at the range. I’m not that crazy. I don’t even own a gun.
    Wow that's quite the story!
    If I lived way out in the mountains I'd have a rifle or two, but handguns always seemed like accidents waiting to happen to me, so all I have is a Walther PPK/s spring bb gun.
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    Wanna hear something crazy about the culture here? Went to a military town Fort hood for a wedding. My friend and his brother are both marines. Anyways I give him a ride back to his place and we crashed. Goto breakfast the next morning and he asked our waitress out on a date. She said what do you wanna do? And he tells her “We could go shooting?” And she was like “That sounds awesome let’s do it!” Later that day he calls me claiming he left a gun in my car... I didn’t even know he had one on him. I check under my seats and sure enough there’s a pistol loaded under my seat. That’s America for you. Where a date is shooting at the range. I’m not that crazy. I don’t even own a gun.

    But you are defending this culture. Could the mass shootings be prefented by banning (semi)autimatic guns? Yes, it could. Australia proves this. And like rural USA, rural Australia has few police, many towms without. But since they banned (semi) automatic guns they haven't had a mass shooting.

    Imagine this guy coming into the church with only a hand gun. He wouldn't have been able to kill 26 people. Maybe six. That's 20 people more living then now.

    The gangs? well they get those machineguns because they're readily availeable on the market.

    Would gun violence dissapear? no. But it would be a lot, a lot less.

    And those who love guns would still be able to go to their shooting club/range.

    The whole shooting lasted 7 minutes and he fired 400 plus rounds. With a handgun and judging by police response time he would’ve still killed a majority of everyone in the church.

    Graphic but he walked aisle to aisle just point blank killing every person. I recently shot a handgun for the first time and I can honestly say if you point it point blank at 5-6 people on the ground repeatedly you’d kill them all. Then reload and move to the next..

    Car chase wouldn’t have happened, police would’ve showed up 15-20 minutes later and he’s either get shot or kill himself. I see your point though. Keep in mind there’s not a range near every person and it can be expensive to join. Typically we just goto someone ranch or farm. Someone is always willing to let people come out.

    It’s free. Plus shooting dove and deer versus a target is more appealing. It’s just the culture I guess. Like I said if I were to walk into a mall or restaurant and see a civilian walking around with a handgun on their waist it wouldn’t bother me. It never has. Seeing someone with a rifle in public would.


  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    shooting dove and deer versus a target is more appealing.
    Not if the targets move. Unless the point is just to kill something... see the blood...
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    What it comes down to is that Americans are happy to put up with random mass shootings as long as they can keep their precious gun laws.

    Just about sums it up when it wouldn't bother our American friend if someone was armed with a handgun in a 'restaurant or shopping mall'

    All part of the 'culture' though eh ?
  • Posts: 7,507
    You are basically admitting that the culture is absurd and the main problem, yet you are surrendering that it just has to be that way. It is exactly that type of crazy conservatism it is hard for non Americans to understand...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Female circumcision is 'just part of the culture' for some people.

    Be a bit draconian to clamp down on that too.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    jobo wrote: »
    You are basically admitting that the culture is absurd and the main problem, yet you are surrendering that it just has to be that way. It is exactly that type of crazy conservatism it is hard for non Americans to understand...

    I was actually being sarcastic but never mind....
  • Posts: 7,507
    jobo wrote: »
    You are basically admitting that the culture is absurd and the main problem, yet you are surrendering that it just has to be that way. It is exactly that type of crazy conservatism it is hard for non Americans to understand...

    I was actually being sarcastic but never mind....


    I was obviously not refering to you, which you had known if you had followed this discussion more closely...
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    jobo wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    You are basically admitting that the culture is absurd and the main problem, yet you are surrendering that it just has to be that way. It is exactly that type of crazy conservatism it is hard for non Americans to understand...

    I was actually being sarcastic but never mind....


    I was obviously not refering to you, which you had known if you had followed this discussion more closely...

    Well try quoting the message you're referring too then.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    If only you both lived in America you could settle this by shooting each other in the face with an assault rifle.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 7,507
    If only you both lived in America you could settle this by shooting each other in the face with an assault rifle.


    Or we could go on a "romantic date". ;)

    Damn, where are American gun laws when you need them!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,790
    If only you both lived in America you could settle this by shooting each other in the face with an assault rifle.
    Leave it to a gun control supporter to suggest this in conversation.
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    chrisisall wrote: »
    shooting dove and deer versus a target is more appealing.
    Not if the targets move. Unless the point is just to kill something... see the blood...

    Well we eat dove and deer so...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    shooting dove and deer versus a target is more appealing.
    Not if the targets move. Unless the point is just to kill something... see the blood...

    Well we eat dove and deer so...

    What state is your dove in after you've shot it with an assault rifle?

    Or does it save you mincing it?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    chrisisall wrote: »
    shooting dove and deer versus a target is more appealing.
    Not if the targets move. Unless the point is just to kill something... see the blood...

    Well we eat dove and deer so...

    What state is your dove in after you've shot it with an assault rifle?

    Or does it save you mincing it?

    lol.png
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Would be much classier if everyone walked around with swords.
    viking-re-enactor-wearing-helmet-and-carrying-sword-at-the-27th-annual-cegfg9.jpg

    That too is legal in Texas.
  • Posts: 7,507
    chrisisall wrote: »
    shooting dove and deer versus a target is more appealing.
    Not if the targets move. Unless the point is just to kill something... see the blood...

    Well we eat dove and deer so...

    What state is your dove in after you've shot it with an assault rifle?

    Or does it save you mincing it?


    So that is the point! It all makes sense now! :))
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    It's clear the Americans don't understand the concept of 'sportmanship'. Using automatic rifles/ assault weapons for hunting is just not beeing sporty at all. I think there's little more cowardly then that. allthough the Brits needed a law for that as well....

    https://davelearningstuff.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/killing-hedgehogs-with-machine-guns-is-illegal-in-the-uk/
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    It's clear the Americans don't understand the concept of 'sportmanship'. Using automatic rifles/ assault weapons for hunting is just not beeing sporty at all. I think there's little more cowardly then that. allthough the Brits needed a law for that as well....

    https://davelearningstuff.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/killing-hedgehogs-with-machine-guns-is-illegal-in-the-uk/

    Indeed.

    Hunting an unarmed dove with an assault rifle - how is that sporting exactly? Like Real Madrid playing a team of toddlers.

    At least give the dove a Glock or something to give it half a chance to defend itself if you consider it a sporting contest.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,790
    Hunters of game don't use automatic weapons.
    Semi-automatic rifles and shotguns are normally used for hunting with a carefully placed single shot. Then if there's time, aiming and taking a second shot. (They don't wildly fire off bursts in a killing frenzy that ruin meat or their interest in a trophy). Used that way, an AR-15 is pretty equal to less provactive rifles like the semi-automatic Marlin Glenfield .22 I had in my youth with a squirrel carved in the stock. But one is an assault weapon, one is considered more innocuous.
    I'm thinking the use of automatic weapons on an animal, humans included excepting war, is illegal most everywhere including the US. And those folk would not be considered "hunters".
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 11,425
    The reason the U.S. has so many mass killings is because it has so many guns. Pretty simple.

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

    Apparently the country with the closest volume of guns per head of population to the U.S. is Yemen, which (un)surprisingly also has one of the highest mass shooting rates in the world.

    The clearest correlation between mass shootings globally is the amount of weapons in a country. Reduce the amount of guns sloshing around and you reduce the number of mass shootings.

    But as others have pointed out, the debate in the US has moved well beyond any discussion about how to reduce mass shootings. The NRA and Trump are not interested in saving lives. The debate is about the right of the gun industry to flog merchandise and rights of gun owners to kill. U.S. society's willingness, indeed enthusiasm for tolerating mass murder on a regular basis is well established. Really the only question is what would US popular opinion consoder NOT acceptable when it comes to killing other Americans. Is there a line to be drawn at all? It seems not. Kids, innocents, everyone's lives are a price worth paying to ensure Americans keep on buying vast quantities of guns.

    I actually met one of the family who own Glock a few years back. He was a nice Austrian guy. Very wealthy.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 11,425
    The reason the U.S. has so many mass killings is because it has so many guns. Pretty simple.

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

    Apparently the country with the closest volume of guns per head of population to the U.S. is Yemen, which (un)surprisingly also has one of the highest mass shooting rates in the world.

    The clearest correlation between mass shootings globally is the amount of weapons in a country. Reduce the amount of guns sloshing around and you reduce the number of mass shootings.

    But as others have pointed out, the debate in the US has moved well beyond any discussion about how to reduce mass shootings. The NRA and Trump are not interested in saving lives. The debate is about the right of the gun industry to flog merchandise and rights of gun owners to kill. U.S. society's willingness, indeed enthusiasm for tolerating mass murder on a regular basis is well established. Really the only question is what would US popular opinion consoder NOT acceptable when it comes to killing other Americans. Is there a line to be drawn at all? It seems not. Kids, innocents, everyone's lives are a price worth paying to ensure Americans keep on buying vast quantities of guns.

    I actually met one of the family who own Glock a few years back. He was a nice Austrian guy. Very wealthy. He was definitley putting America First with his handgun marketing campaign.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    The gun situation is never, ever going to change here. I figured the Las Vegas shooting, given that it broke records as the deadliest U.S. mass shooting, would do it, but apparently not. Not sure there's really any scenario that can go down that'll unanimously drive those in power to agree that something needs to change.
This discussion has been closed.