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  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    I guess you fellows missed the part where getting paid in cash is not taxable... You can report income yes but you also don’t have to report income. I know several guys who have fake drivers licenses and were able to buy cars with all cash. You legally cannot drive a vehicle without a valid drivers license or insurance..

    It’s a huge risk but they have never been caught in at least the ten years they have been here.

    There’s a lot of loop holes.

    To each their own I guess. I will never be okay with people getting free college because of their skin color or non citizens benefiting off of other people.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I'm not in favour of legalizing all drugs. I don't believe that is the solution to the problem at hand.

    As I said in my earlier post, the people coming across the border into the US are immigrants mostly. Not refugees. It is not a matter of persecution. Immigration is subject to the laws of the land. Any land. Follow the procedure and you are allowed in (and it may take years, but that's the way it goes).

    This is the case in all the European countries where the other posters are from. I can't even understand why this is being discussed here as most posters should understand that every country has immigration rules and immigration criteria to abide by. Check your local laws if you're not aware of them.

    I have immigrated through several countries in my life (with my parents and on my own). I have had to wait and follow stringent rules to live where I live and work where I work.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    bondjames wrote: »
    If I may just chime in briefly. Forgive the long post.
    patb wrote: »
    "Anyone who thinks illegals should have any benefits or rights is insane"

    Yes, just shoot them on the spot and let them rot. This is the perfect example of a country in decline. The USA used to be a defender of rights. And now it's being dragged back into the middle ages by voters who think its OK to to treat some humans worse than animals and express that opinion openly. Trump is the effect of this and not the cause.

    PS and rather encourage open debate, criticise those who have an alternative view as being mentally ill. That is pure Trump talk.
    His point may have been inelegantly expressed, but he has a point nonetheless. Let’s step outside the Trump (or any personality for that matter) issue for a moment and look at the situation (and any geopolitical matter) generally and strategically if we can, and in this context in terms of what constitutes a nation. Any nation anywhere. A fundamental aspect of that is protected borders. Look at Dover or Calais. At least there one has many migrants escaping legitimate persecution. That is not the case at the US/Mexican border. Folks are coming over for a better life (debatable whether they get it perhaps) from everywhere (including South America). That is 'immigration'. In this case it must be done legally and every country has a right to determine the criteria for immigration (whether it be skills based or whatever). That is not racism. It's widely accepted common sense. There are laws on the books and they must be followed. Otherwise change the laws or remove the law if you want open season. Even if it is a refugee claim it must be done legally and that is the case in all civilized countries. People mention the past and how people came over by the boatload. Well that was the past, and the nation wasn't trillions of $ in debt then and didn't have the social safety net and security concerns it has now either.

    Other countries, as you know, are facing these kinds of issues as well, but in far lesser numbers. The number that's bandied about for 'illegals' in the US is 11m. That number has been used since the 1980's. Do we really believe that’s the number? The issue is nobody really even knows what it is, and that in itself should be a major concern. Think about that number for a moment? That’s more than the entire population of many countries. We all know about the German problem re: 1m refugees. Canada has recently had some issues with a few Haitians coming into Montreal, even though the numbers are just in the 10’s of thousands (yes, you read that right, thousands only). A Srilankan family was recently deported. even though they had been contributing to society in the years they were there. Why? Coming in illegally. As I said, one must be a nation with borders. Most understand that.

    If we want to stem the global refugee problem (as opposed to illegal immigration) it would be helpful to start by not creating illegal wars everywhere in order to facilitate weapons sales which in turn inevitably lead to local conflict which result in population displacement. Oh, but perhaps that is the ultimate aim after all? How can one sell weapons if there is peace? Japan has recently agreed to open the coffers after years of restraint due to fears of North Korea/China. As an aside, what did people think Saudi Arabia was going to do with all the weapons that the UK, France and US sold them over the past few years (yes, under that 'other' Administration. You know, the supposedly good and humane one)? Why is anyone surprised by Yemen/Qatar? It was inevitable.

    This is all one shell big game funded by the military, oil and banking interests. Both sides of the legislative aisle and politicians in some Western countries cheered when the US bombed an airfield (an airfield!) after notifying Russian and Syrian authorities well in advance that it was coming (if people can't understand why the Administration notified the authorities in advance, and why the cheering occurred by those who didn’t make the decision, then they aren't looking closely enough). This is not an American issue although they are the biggest problem. It’s a Western problem. A cancer. Then people worry about terrorism?

    Those worrying about a North Korean nuclear conflict shouldn't be concerned imho. The nuclear deterrent eliminates that risk. “MAD” and all that. Neither side is as crazy as the sensationalist media will have you believe. Kim didn't start his build up because of Trump. He started it because of Libya and Iraq. Any country that gives up a nuclear ambition gets invaded. That was his calculus and can one blame him when his side of the demilitarized zone is an economic mess in comparison with the south? Collapse is inevitable from within if he doesn't have something to show his people. Iran will do the same eventually (nuclear deal or no nuclear deal) given the mess in the Middle East now. North Korea is strategic to China. South Korea is strategic to the US. Russia is a neighbour of North Korea. It makes sense to maintain the status quo there for the time being. Nuclear weapons actually do that in a round about way. Nothing to worry about here. Move along.

    If people can't see where the real power and leverage is in Western Govts (it's not with the elected officials), they aren't looking closely enough. There is a very powerfully funded shadow element that wants war. It craves it. It's their raison d'etre. They own both sides of the govt. They must be stopped. The rest is just distraction to cause infighting to control & distract the masses (which seems to work for some reason which evades me - emotional issues are always an easy button to press).

    Most great nations and civilizations implode from within due to their own stupidity rather than from an external threat. Time to stop the infighting people.

    His point was definately ill-expressed, and considering the other points he made I'm not quite convinced he thought it through as far as you have. Still worth the debate of course.
    I've been looking around for some valid numbers but it seems they're hard to get by.

    The borders of countries were devised to make clear under what law one would live, or by which rules to abide. It is true that if an influx of people who don't hold to those rules come barging in such a country will have a hard time keeping it's rules in place.

    Allthough I've been in favour of strict rulings before, I've been challanged on that idea recently. Why not give people a chance and see if they're willing to adjust and 'work for their money'. If so they should have all the rights the locals have, especially one could argue in a country build on immigrants.
    Sending those Srilankans may have thus been a bad idea, whereas if they didn't have an income, it would be a good idea.
    From close by I know what it's like to be confronted with such 'rules', and they seem to be ok, but in practice they end up most inhumane (my girlfriend/fiancee is an immigrant). And after all, all humans have humanitarian rights. By the way things were said above one could read that's something that was blatantly overlooked (or not acknowledged).

    I agree on your assessment of where the real problem lies, especially (or most visible) in the US, where there's no limits to the ease with which politicians are bought, as you said, on both sides. The thing I've been fighting here is the 'fake news' which as you've seen is, again, everywhere on both sides. And the country is so devided they seem to think everything is allowed. That in itself is extremely dangerous.

    I would propose to Trump to stop the war on drugs instead of building the wall. It saves a lot of money and I can guarantee you the amount of refugees from Mexico wil decrease dramatically.

    I don't agree on your assessment of NK. MAD only works if both sides are very much awar of the implications. Trump I can give the benefit of the doubt because he's got a military system that might keep him in check. Kim Jung Un however is something else. It isn't his doctrine, it's his father's. Of him we know only that he cares even less about human lives then his father did, it's unclear he knows what his own country really looks like and it's easy to upset him and he takes it personal.

    Thankfully the US President never comes up with personal insults or is as stable and thoughtfull and decisive when he should be as you can expect from a commander in chief...

    oh wait....

    tbh I don't care anymore about the political system the US chooses, but I do care about facts. If they choose in favour of lenient gun laws and accept mass shootings, that's fine by me (but stop whining about them then), if they choose agains minimum wages because they prefer a small group of very rich people instead of a decent middle class and call it trickle down (which litterally means there's little going from the top to the bottom) fine, but stop complaining about the 1% then.



    See my post above.

    I did think it through it just shows that people like you who claim to be educated do not understand the issue.

    Do you work with illegal Mexican immigrants in your workplace because I seriously doubt you do.

    Do you watch them get paid in cash and not pay taxes while you lose half of your paycheck? They receive a lot of benefits like food stamps, welfare and many go to college on full ride scholarships. Benefits I myself, do not receive.

    Getting paid in cash is untraceable.
    You have to report income but it is very easy to say “I only made $15,000”, when maybe you work multiple jobs for cash and get paid $30,000. Huge difference. A lot of them do benefit off of that. The reason they get paid in cash is because technically people can get into trouble for hiring them knowing they are illegal. It is against the law.

    Now if they are just mowing lawns in a neighborhood it’s not like anyone cares where they from but when they are employed by a huge corporation that has companies all over the world like the one I work for, then that becomes a problem. Major difference between being employed by a company vs saying hey I’ll mow your lawn for this amount in cash...

    Like I said above, if I were to goto Canada and stay in a hotel for a few months could I try and get free healthcare or free dental work done? Absolutely not. I am not a Canadian citizen.

    There is a process If you want to benefit off of American tax payers then you must also be an American citizen who pays taxes...

    If that’s not simple enough for you then I’ll make it easier!

    Let’s say you pay $20,000 for an initiation fee to a nice country club. (That’s standard at a lot of clubs).

    Now on top of that you pay $2,000 a month. ($20,000 a year so $40,000 combined).

    Let’s say you get a few people who are NOT members and they pay ZERO dollars for anything, but yet they show up and enjoy the use of the private country club. Is that fair? You have a person paying $40K a year for a membership and someone using the club for free... Can you see why that would make a lot of people mad?

    The democrats want sanctuary cities.
    Did you not see the news with the recent acquittal of the illegal who was a felon and had gotten deported five times?! He should’ve never been allowed back into the country considering he was a felon in Mexico and in the USA. Yet he managed to get into a sanctuary city and kill a young innocent girl who was casually walking with her father. With a gun that was stolen from a police vehicle. They could not verify that he himself stole the gun but he used the gun to kill her. Even though he got off because “It was an accident”..

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Kathryn_Steinle


    You might be smart but there’s also this thing called experience. You might be fully educated on a certain state or country but if you don’t live there you do not understand or know what it’s like..

    It's a pity you still come up with personal insults. I do understand your frustration. I don't understand why you take it out on the mexicans, as far as I can see it's your own boss paying them cash now isn't he? He's employing those illegals.

    Then if you hate paying all those taxes (you haven't got the foggiest idea about how much taxes I pay and what a real social welfare state costs, but we'll put that aside for the moment) why do you vote for a party that's only going to increase your taxes and lower them for the super-rich? You're saying you're educated and experienced and I don't 'understand' these things and yet you are the one keeping this system running, you're the one keeping the rich in power and you're the one working for a company that pays these people in cash, whilst all they're trying to do is get some food for their family.

    I would reccommend talking to them, visiting them and seeing what their family life is like before kicking them out of the country while they're actually working and trying to be part of the system you chose.

    And yes, there are rotten apples, but are you now implying that there are no registered Americans who'd do such things? How about shooting up a church, was that a Mexican immigrant?

    I've said it before and you've been ignoring that post, but where does your conviction come from that your media sources are right and others are wrong? Why would you consider Fox trustworthy and complain about the MSM, while Fox is as mainstream as it gets? Stop pointing at others and try to figure out what's really going on. At least @bondjames is trying to do that. We may not agree on the path to follow, (sometimes we do) but at least he's searching for facts, not impressions. He's pointing at the true culprits instead of the people who are just trying to get by.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @CommanderRoss, please see my earlier post regarding immigration rules. I can't understand why this is being discussed here. I'm not sure where you're from but people can't just walk across the border (or water) and take up residence there surely? That is subject to immediate deportation in most countries unless they can show some form of persecution. Not because the living standards are higher where they are going to.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Where I live you can get a whole house if you're brown & not a citizen. So I put shoe shine on my skin and made a fake expired visa and went down to city hall, and WOW!! THEY GAVE ME ONE!!! A whole house with a three car garage!!! It's like freakin' MAGIC!!! Next up: I'm getting free college and a free Ferrari!
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    edited December 2017 Posts: 1,003
    bondjames wrote: »
    If I may just chime in briefly. Forgive the long post.
    patb wrote: »
    "Anyone who thinks illegals should have any benefits or rights is insane"

    Yes, just shoot them on the spot and let them rot. This is the perfect example of a country in decline. The USA used to be a defender of rights. And now it's being dragged back into the middle ages by voters who think its OK to to treat some humans worse than animals and express that opinion openly. Trump is the effect of this and not the cause.

    PS and rather encourage open debate, criticise those who have an alternative view as being mentally ill. That is pure Trump talk.
    His point may have been inelegantly expressed, but he has a point nonetheless. Let’s step outside the Trump (or any personality for that matter) issue for a moment and look at the situation (and any geopolitical matter) generally and strategically if we can, and in this context in terms of what constitutes a nation. Any nation anywhere. A fundamental aspect of that is protected borders. Look at Dover or Calais. At least there one has many migrants escaping legitimate persecution. That is not the case at the US/Mexican border. Folks are coming over for a better life (debatable whether they get it perhaps) from everywhere (including South America). That is 'immigration'. In this case it must be done legally and every country has a right to determine the criteria for immigration (whether it be skills based or whatever). That is not racism. It's widely accepted common sense. There are laws on the books and they must be followed. Otherwise change the laws or remove the law if you want open season. Even if it is a refugee claim it must be done legally and that is the case in all civilized countries. People mention the past and how people came over by the boatload. Well that was the past, and the nation wasn't trillions of $ in debt then and didn't have the social safety net and security concerns it has now either.

    Other countries, as you know, are facing these kinds of issues as well, but in far lesser numbers. The number that's bandied about for 'illegals' in the US is 11m. That number has been used since the 1980's. Do we really believe that’s the number? The issue is nobody really even knows what it is, and that in itself should be a major concern. Think about that number for a moment? That’s more than the entire population of many countries. We all know about the German problem re: 1m refugees. Canada has recently had some issues with a few Haitians coming into Montreal, even though the numbers are just in the 10’s of thousands (yes, you read that right, thousands only). A Srilankan family was recently deported. even though they had been contributing to society in the years they were there. Why? Coming in illegally. As I said, one must be a nation with borders. Most understand that.

    If we want to stem the global refugee problem (as opposed to illegal immigration) it would be helpful to start by not creating illegal wars everywhere in order to facilitate weapons sales which in turn inevitably lead to local conflict which result in population displacement. Oh, but perhaps that is the ultimate aim after all? How can one sell weapons if there is peace? Japan has recently agreed to open the coffers after years of restraint due to fears of North Korea/China. As an aside, what did people think Saudi Arabia was going to do with all the weapons that the UK, France and US sold them over the past few years (yes, under that 'other' Administration. You know, the supposedly good and humane one)? Why is anyone surprised by Yemen/Qatar? It was inevitable.

    This is all one shell big game funded by the military, oil and banking interests. Both sides of the legislative aisle and politicians in some Western countries cheered when the US bombed an airfield (an airfield!) after notifying Russian and Syrian authorities well in advance that it was coming (if people can't understand why the Administration notified the authorities in advance, and why the cheering occurred by those who didn’t make the decision, then they aren't looking closely enough). This is not an American issue although they are the biggest problem. It’s a Western problem. A cancer. Then people worry about terrorism?

    Those worrying about a North Korean nuclear conflict shouldn't be concerned imho. The nuclear deterrent eliminates that risk. “MAD” and all that. Neither side is as crazy as the sensationalist media will have you believe. Kim didn't start his build up because of Trump. He started it because of Libya and Iraq. Any country that gives up a nuclear ambition gets invaded. That was his calculus and can one blame him when his side of the demilitarized zone is an economic mess in comparison with the south? Collapse is inevitable from within if he doesn't have something to show his people. Iran will do the same eventually (nuclear deal or no nuclear deal) given the mess in the Middle East now. North Korea is strategic to China. South Korea is strategic to the US. Russia is a neighbour of North Korea. It makes sense to maintain the status quo there for the time being. Nuclear weapons actually do that in a round about way. Nothing to worry about here. Move along.

    If people can't see where the real power and leverage is in Western Govts (it's not with the elected officials), they aren't looking closely enough. There is a very powerfully funded shadow element that wants war. It craves it. It's their raison d'etre. They own both sides of the govt. They must be stopped. The rest is just distraction to cause infighting to control & distract the masses (which seems to work for some reason which evades me - emotional issues are always an easy button to press).

    Most great nations and civilizations implode from within due to their own stupidity rather than from an external threat. Time to stop the infighting people.

    His point was definately ill-expressed, and considering the other points he made I'm not quite convinced he thought it through as far as you have. Still worth the debate of course.
    I've been looking around for some valid numbers but it seems they're hard to get by.

    The borders of countries were devised to make clear under what law one would live, or by which rules to abide. It is true that if an influx of people who don't hold to those rules come barging in such a country will have a hard time keeping it's rules in place.

    Allthough I've been in favour of strict rulings before, I've been challanged on that idea recently. Why not give people a chance and see if they're willing to adjust and 'work for their money'. If so they should have all the rights the locals have, especially one could argue in a country build on immigrants.
    Sending those Srilankans may have thus been a bad idea, whereas if they didn't have an income, it would be a good idea.
    From close by I know what it's like to be confronted with such 'rules', and they seem to be ok, but in practice they end up most inhumane (my girlfriend/fiancee is an immigrant). And after all, all humans have humanitarian rights. By the way things were said above one could read that's something that was blatantly overlooked (or not acknowledged).

    I agree on your assessment of where the real problem lies, especially (or most visible) in the US, where there's no limits to the ease with which politicians are bought, as you said, on both sides. The thing I've been fighting here is the 'fake news' which as you've seen is, again, everywhere on both sides. And the country is so devided they seem to think everything is allowed. That in itself is extremely dangerous.

    I would propose to Trump to stop the war on drugs instead of building the wall. It saves a lot of money and I can guarantee you the amount of refugees from Mexico wil decrease dramatically.

    I don't agree on your assessment of NK. MAD only works if both sides are very much awar of the implications. Trump I can give the benefit of the doubt because he's got a military system that might keep him in check. Kim Jung Un however is something else. It isn't his doctrine, it's his father's. Of him we know only that he cares even less about human lives then his father did, it's unclear he knows what his own country really looks like and it's easy to upset him and he takes it personal.

    Thankfully the US President never comes up with personal insults or is as stable and thoughtfull and decisive when he should be as you can expect from a commander in chief...

    oh wait....

    tbh I don't care anymore about the political system the US chooses, but I do care about facts. If they choose in favour of lenient gun laws and accept mass shootings, that's fine by me (but stop whining about them then), if they choose agains minimum wages because they prefer a small group of very rich people instead of a decent middle class and call it trickle down (which litterally means there's little going from the top to the bottom) fine, but stop complaining about the 1% then.



    See my post above.

    I did think it through it just shows that people like you who claim to be educated do not understand the issue.

    Do you work with illegal Mexican immigrants in your workplace because I seriously doubt you do.

    Do you watch them get paid in cash and not pay taxes while you lose half of your paycheck? They receive a lot of benefits like food stamps, welfare and many go to college on full ride scholarships. Benefits I myself, do not receive.

    Getting paid in cash is untraceable.
    You have to report income but it is very easy to say “I only made $15,000”, when maybe you work multiple jobs for cash and get paid $30,000. Huge difference. A lot of them do benefit off of that. The reason they get paid in cash is because technically people can get into trouble for hiring them knowing they are illegal. It is against the law.

    Now if they are just mowing lawns in a neighborhood it’s not like anyone cares where they from but when they are employed by a huge corporation that has companies all over the world like the one I work for, then that becomes a problem. Major difference between being employed by a company vs saying hey I’ll mow your lawn for this amount in cash...

    Like I said above, if I were to goto Canada and stay in a hotel for a few months could I try and get free healthcare or free dental work done? Absolutely not. I am not a Canadian citizen.

    There is a process If you want to benefit off of American tax payers then you must also be an American citizen who pays taxes...

    If that’s not simple enough for you then I’ll make it easier!

    Let’s say you pay $20,000 for an initiation fee to a nice country club. (That’s standard at a lot of clubs).

    Now on top of that you pay $2,000 a month. ($20,000 a year so $40,000 combined).

    Let’s say you get a few people who are NOT members and they pay ZERO dollars for anything, but yet they show up and enjoy the use of the private country club. Is that fair? You have a person paying $40K a year for a membership and someone using the club for free... Can you see why that would make a lot of people mad?

    The democrats want sanctuary cities.
    Did you not see the news with the recent acquittal of the illegal who was a felon and had gotten deported five times?! He should’ve never been allowed back into the country considering he was a felon in Mexico and in the USA. Yet he managed to get into a sanctuary city and kill a young innocent girl who was casually walking with her father. With a gun that was stolen from a police vehicle. They could not verify that he himself stole the gun but he used the gun to kill her. Even though he got off because “It was an accident”..

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Kathryn_Steinle


    You might be smart but there’s also this thing called experience. You might be fully educated on a certain state or country but if you don’t live there you do not understand or know what it’s like..

    It's a pity you still come up with personal insults. I do understand your frustration. I don't understand why you take it out on the mexicans, as far as I can see it's your own boss paying them cash now isn't he? He's employing those illegals.

    Then if you hate paying all those taxes (you haven't got the foggiest idea about how much taxes I pay and what a real social welfare state costs, but we'll put that aside for the moment) why do you vote for a party that's only going to increase your taxes and lower them for the super-rich? You're saying you're educated and experienced and I don't 'understand' these things and yet you are the one keeping this system running, you're the one keeping the rich in power and you're the one working for a company that pays these people in cash, whilst all they're trying to do is get some food for their family.

    I would reccommend talking to them, visiting them and seeing what their family life is like before kicking them out of the country while they're actually working and trying to be part of the system you chose.

    And yes, there are rotten apples, but are you now implying that there are no registered Americans who'd do such things? How about shooting up a church, was that a Mexican immigrant?

    I've said it before and you've been ignoring that post, but where does your conviction come from that your media sources are right and others are wrong? Why would you consider Fox trustworthy and complain about the MSM, while Fox is as mainstream as it gets? Stop pointing at others and try to figure out what's really going on. At least @bondjames is trying to do that. We may not agree on the path to follow, (sometimes we do) but at least he's searching for facts, not impressions. He's pointing at the true culprits instead of the people who are just trying to get by.


    Who said I watch Fox News or hate anyone? The fact that it is against the law to be here illegally is a give away.

    Are you basically saying Mexico is a trashy horrible place?

    Liberals/Democrats are the ones that advocated for raising taxes for “free college”, right now under the new tax plan I would be saving money. It’s going from 15% to 12%, I am in no way one of the wealthy ones but to say people like me wont save money is crazy. CNN is biased and one sided. So is Fox News. I hate how the media doesn’t actually say “Well here’s what’s happening in the world and take it how you want..” CNN just had to retract multiple stories because it was fake and made up. I could careless about people who are here illegally. I barely make enough money to support myself and to pay my own bills.

    The fact that people on this thread think we should “make all drugs legal” for example is insane. To each their own I guess.. It’s like I said before, I am not personally attacking you I just think you have no right to judge when you don’t live near the Mexican border or live in America.


    @bondjames is saying virtually the same thing that you have to follow the law to legally come here, you can’t just sneak in illegally. There are laws in place all over the world.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Liberals/Democrats are the ones that advocated for raising taxes for “free college”, right now under the new tax plan I would be saving money. It’s going from 15% to 12%, I am in no way one of the wealthy ones but to say people like me wont save money is crazy.
    It's SO much more complicated that this.
    They give you 3% to make it seem like you're really getting something and hit you harder in other places. SMDH
  • edited December 2017 Posts: 4,615
    We have the right to judge because we (me anyway) live in countrys that values freedom of speech. Is that another right that you want to remove?

    Whether that judgement is correct is obviously a matter of opinion and clearly, if we disagree with your opinion, we are insane (bit of a pattern there). Anyone who disagrees with your personal opinion is insane.

    You have every right to judge what's happening here in the UK or any other country and you may add something usefull. Thats the benefit of open and honest debate.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited December 2017 Posts: 4,585
    bondjames wrote: »
    If I may just chime in briefly. Forgive the long post.
    patb wrote: »
    "Anyone who thinks illegals should have any benefits or rights is insane"

    Yes, just shoot them on the spot and let them rot. This is the perfect example of a country in decline. The USA used to be a defender of rights. And now it's being dragged back into the middle ages by voters who think its OK to to treat some humans worse than animals and express that opinion openly. Trump is the effect of this and not the cause.

    PS and rather encourage open debate, criticise those who have an alternative view as being mentally ill. That is pure Trump talk.
    His point may have been inelegantly expressed, but he has a point nonetheless. Let’s step outside the Trump (or any personality for that matter) issue for a moment and look at the situation (and any geopolitical matter) generally and strategically if we can, and in this context in terms of what constitutes a nation. Any nation anywhere. A fundamental aspect of that is protected borders. Look at Dover or Calais. At least there one has many migrants escaping legitimate persecution. That is not the case at the US/Mexican border. Folks are coming over for a better life (debatable whether they get it perhaps) from everywhere (including South America). That is 'immigration'. In this case it must be done legally and every country has a right to determine the criteria for immigration (whether it be skills based or whatever). That is not racism. It's widely accepted common sense. There are laws on the books and they must be followed. Otherwise change the laws or remove the law if you want open season. Even if it is a refugee claim it must be done legally and that is the case in all civilized countries. People mention the past and how people came over by the boatload. Well that was the past, and the nation wasn't trillions of $ in debt then and didn't have the social safety net and security concerns it has now either.

    Other countries, as you know, are facing these kinds of issues as well, but in far lesser numbers. The number that's bandied about for 'illegals' in the US is 11m. That number has been used since the 1980's. Do we really believe that’s the number? The issue is nobody really even knows what it is, and that in itself should be a major concern. Think about that number for a moment? That’s more than the entire population of many countries. We all know about the German problem re: 1m refugees. Canada has recently had some issues with a few Haitians coming into Montreal, even though the numbers are just in the 10’s of thousands (yes, you read that right, thousands only). A Srilankan family was recently deported. even though they had been contributing to society in the years they were there. Why? Coming in illegally. As I said, one must be a nation with borders. Most understand that.

    If we want to stem the global refugee problem (as opposed to illegal immigration) it would be helpful to start by not creating illegal wars everywhere in order to facilitate weapons sales which in turn inevitably lead to local conflict which result in population displacement. Oh, but perhaps that is the ultimate aim after all? How can one sell weapons if there is peace? Japan has recently agreed to open the coffers after years of restraint due to fears of North Korea/China. As an aside, what did people think Saudi Arabia was going to do with all the weapons that the UK, France and US sold them over the past few years (yes, under that 'other' Administration. You know, the supposedly good and humane one)? Why is anyone surprised by Yemen/Qatar? It was inevitable.

    This is all one shell big game funded by the military, oil and banking interests. Both sides of the legislative aisle and politicians in some Western countries cheered when the US bombed an airfield (an airfield!) after notifying Russian and Syrian authorities well in advance that it was coming (if people can't understand why the Administration notified the authorities in advance, and why the cheering occurred by those who didn’t make the decision, then they aren't looking closely enough). This is not an American issue although they are the biggest problem. It’s a Western problem. A cancer. Then people worry about terrorism?

    Those worrying about a North Korean nuclear conflict shouldn't be concerned imho. The nuclear deterrent eliminates that risk. “MAD” and all that. Neither side is as crazy as the sensationalist media will have you believe. Kim didn't start his build up because of Trump. He started it because of Libya and Iraq. Any country that gives up a nuclear ambition gets invaded. That was his calculus and can one blame him when his side of the demilitarized zone is an economic mess in comparison with the south? Collapse is inevitable from within if he doesn't have something to show his people. Iran will do the same eventually (nuclear deal or no nuclear deal) given the mess in the Middle East now. North Korea is strategic to China. South Korea is strategic to the US. Russia is a neighbour of North Korea. It makes sense to maintain the status quo there for the time being. Nuclear weapons actually do that in a round about way. Nothing to worry about here. Move along.

    If people can't see where the real power and leverage is in Western Govts (it's not with the elected officials), they aren't looking closely enough. There is a very powerfully funded shadow element that wants war. It craves it. It's their raison d'etre. They own both sides of the govt. They must be stopped. The rest is just distraction to cause infighting to control & distract the masses (which seems to work for some reason which evades me - emotional issues are always an easy button to press).

    Most great nations and civilizations implode from within due to their own stupidity rather than from an external threat. Time to stop the infighting people.

    His point was definately ill-expressed, and considering the other points he made I'm not quite convinced he thought it through as far as you have. Still worth the debate of course.
    I've been looking around for some valid numbers but it seems they're hard to get by.

    The borders of countries were devised to make clear under what law one would live, or by which rules to abide. It is true that if an influx of people who don't hold to those rules come barging in such a country will have a hard time keeping it's rules in place.

    Allthough I've been in favour of strict rulings before, I've been challanged on that idea recently. Why not give people a chance and see if they're willing to adjust and 'work for their money'. If so they should have all the rights the locals have, especially one could argue in a country build on immigrants.
    Sending those Srilankans may have thus been a bad idea, whereas if they didn't have an income, it would be a good idea.
    From close by I know what it's like to be confronted with such 'rules', and they seem to be ok, but in practice they end up most inhumane (my girlfriend/fiancee is an immigrant). And after all, all humans have humanitarian rights. By the way things were said above one could read that's something that was blatantly overlooked (or not acknowledged).

    I agree on your assessment of where the real problem lies, especially (or most visible) in the US, where there's no limits to the ease with which politicians are bought, as you said, on both sides. The thing I've been fighting here is the 'fake news' which as you've seen is, again, everywhere on both sides. And the country is so devided they seem to think everything is allowed. That in itself is extremely dangerous.

    I would propose to Trump to stop the war on drugs instead of building the wall. It saves a lot of money and I can guarantee you the amount of refugees from Mexico wil decrease dramatically.

    I don't agree on your assessment of NK. MAD only works if both sides are very much awar of the implications. Trump I can give the benefit of the doubt because he's got a military system that might keep him in check. Kim Jung Un however is something else. It isn't his doctrine, it's his father's. Of him we know only that he cares even less about human lives then his father did, it's unclear he knows what his own country really looks like and it's easy to upset him and he takes it personal.

    Thankfully the US President never comes up with personal insults or is as stable and thoughtfull and decisive when he should be as you can expect from a commander in chief...

    oh wait....

    tbh I don't care anymore about the political system the US chooses, but I do care about facts. If they choose in favour of lenient gun laws and accept mass shootings, that's fine by me (but stop whining about them then), if they choose agains minimum wages because they prefer a small group of very rich people instead of a decent middle class and call it trickle down (which litterally means there's little going from the top to the bottom) fine, but stop complaining about the 1% then.



    See my post above.

    I did think it through it just shows that people like you who claim to be educated do not understand the issue.

    Do you work with illegal Mexican immigrants in your workplace because I seriously doubt you do.

    Do you watch them get paid in cash and not pay taxes while you lose half of your paycheck? They receive a lot of benefits like food stamps, welfare and many go to college on full ride scholarships. Benefits I myself, do not receive.

    Getting paid in cash is untraceable.
    You have to report income but it is very easy to say “I only made $15,000”, when maybe you work multiple jobs for cash and get paid $30,000. Huge difference. A lot of them do benefit off of that. The reason they get paid in cash is because technically people can get into trouble for hiring them knowing they are illegal. It is against the law.

    Now if they are just mowing lawns in a neighborhood it’s not like anyone cares where they from but when they are employed by a huge corporation that has companies all over the world like the one I work for, then that becomes a problem. Major difference between being employed by a company vs saying hey I’ll mow your lawn for this amount in cash...

    Like I said above, if I were to goto Canada and stay in a hotel for a few months could I try and get free healthcare or free dental work done? Absolutely not. I am not a Canadian citizen.

    There is a process If you want to benefit off of American tax payers then you must also be an American citizen who pays taxes...

    If that’s not simple enough for you then I’ll make it easier!

    Let’s say you pay $20,000 for an initiation fee to a nice country club. (That’s standard at a lot of clubs).

    Now on top of that you pay $2,000 a month. ($20,000 a year so $40,000 combined).

    Let’s say you get a few people who are NOT members and they pay ZERO dollars for anything, but yet they show up and enjoy the use of the private country club. Is that fair? You have a person paying $40K a year for a membership and someone using the club for free... Can you see why that would make a lot of people mad?

    The democrats want sanctuary cities.
    Did you not see the news with the recent acquittal of the illegal who was a felon and had gotten deported five times?! He should’ve never been allowed back into the country considering he was a felon in Mexico and in the USA. Yet he managed to get into a sanctuary city and kill a young innocent girl who was casually walking with her father. With a gun that was stolen from a police vehicle. They could not verify that he himself stole the gun but he used the gun to kill her. Even though he got off because “It was an accident”..

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Kathryn_Steinle


    You might be smart but there’s also this thing called experience. You might be fully educated on a certain state or country but if you don’t live there you do not understand or know what it’s like..

    It's a pity you still come up with personal insults. I do understand your frustration. I don't understand why you take it out on the mexicans, as far as I can see it's your own boss paying them cash now isn't he? He's employing those illegals.

    Then if you hate paying all those taxes (you haven't got the foggiest idea about how much taxes I pay and what a real social welfare state costs, but we'll put that aside for the moment) why do you vote for a party that's only going to increase your taxes and lower them for the super-rich? You're saying you're educated and experienced and I don't 'understand' these things and yet you are the one keeping this system running, you're the one keeping the rich in power and you're the one working for a company that pays these people in cash, whilst all they're trying to do is get some food for their family.

    I would reccommend talking to them, visiting them and seeing what their family life is like before kicking them out of the country while they're actually working and trying to be part of the system you chose.

    And yes, there are rotten apples, but are you now implying that there are no registered Americans who'd do such things? How about shooting up a church, was that a Mexican immigrant?

    I've said it before and you've been ignoring that post, but where does your conviction come from that your media sources are right and others are wrong? Why would you consider Fox trustworthy and complain about the MSM, while Fox is as mainstream as it gets? Stop pointing at others and try to figure out what's really going on. At least @bondjames is trying to do that. We may not agree on the path to follow, (sometimes we do) but at least he's searching for facts, not impressions. He's pointing at the true culprits instead of the people who are just trying to get by.


    Who said I watch Fox News or hate anyone? The fact that it is against the law to be here illegally is a give away.

    Are you basically saying Mexico is a trashy horrible place?

    Liberals/Democrats are the ones that advocated for raising taxes for “free college”, right now under the new tax plan I would be saving money. It’s going from 15% to 12%, I am in no way one of the wealthy ones but to say people like me wont save money is crazy. CNN is biased and one sided. So is Fox News. I hate how the media doesn’t actually say “Well here’s what’s happening in the world and take it how you want..” CNN just had to retract multiple stories because it was fake and made up. I could careless about people who are here illegally. I barely make enough money to support myself and to pay my own bills.

    The fact that people on this thread think we should “make all drugs legal” for example is insane. To each their own I guess.. It’s like I said before, I am not personally attacking you I just think you have no right to judge when you don’t live near the Mexican border or live in America.


    @bondjames is saying virtually the same thing that you have to follow the law to legally come here, you can’t just sneak in illegally. There are laws in place all over the world.


    It's not insane. Saying something is "legal" means it can be controlled and taxed. Seems kind of hypocritical to me that alcohol and prescription opioids are perfectly legal, while marijuana and cocaine aren't. I'm not saying it is THE solution, but what we are doing now, by pouring millions into a "war on drugs," is a waste of time and money.

    Furthermore @CASINOROYALE I am not sure anyone is saying "Hey, let's let all the people in." You'd be interested to know that the Obama administration deported more illegal immigrants than GWB did. But our approach to the issue needs to be humane and respectful. What we are seeing now is a scapegoating of Mexicans (and really, outright racism) ever since the economic downturn in 2008. Prior to that, even Republicans, like Reagan, took a laissz-faire approach to illegal immigration. In fact, Reagan signed bills to help Mexicans stay in the U.S. because low-wage farm workers were good for California.

    And then along came Obama and, voila!, we suddenly had an immigration problem, one that had been ignored for decades. It's laughable.

    When the banks went belly up and home values declined, somehow the "illegals" were to blame. They were the ones getting in the way of all of us not achieving our dreams. But the blame really lies with Wall Street and the banking industry. The blame, as always, lies at the feet of corporate greed. For the past thirty years, the divide between the wealthiest and poorest citizens has grown. How is that? Why is that? Because of Mexicans? Pleeeeease.

    So what has happened over the past ten years is finger-pointing at "them illegals" as a source of all our problems. Reality is, they are not a major source of problems our country faces. They are merely an easy target. Yeah, if we can just build a big wall, it will save all our problems. Will it? We'll spend billions on this thing and then...they still still find ways in. Tunneling under it is one. Simply climbing over it is another. When people are desperate enough, they find a way.
  • Living in California I have often worked alongside illegals and there's a lot of misinformation being presented here. I was working the fields alongside illegals as of the early 1970s, and worked in the HR department of a San Francisco based woodworking firm in the mid-90s. I've seen a few migra raids and filed lots of state-mandated paperwork. So I do have a bit of first-hand information on this topic.

    First of all, most don't get paid cash. Maybe if you're hired on a daily basis by a homeowner wanting to get somebody to mow his lawn that day. But the state of CA makes it mighty hard to regularly hire people that don't have the proper paperwork. And the vast majority of legitimate businesses are paying their employees by check or direct deposit. This means that there's a thriving market for counterfeit Social Security cards and various forms of ID.

    Most illegal workers that present fraudulent IDs do indeed have taxes withheld from their paychecks -- they just don't file tax returns and therefore don't receive tax refunds. The government gets to keep every penny withheld from their paychecks. Unsurprisingly, the government does not have too much of a problem with this particular aspect of the situation regarding illegal workers.

    As far as the rest of the giveaways some folks want you to believe in -- as soon as @chrisisall locates the reality of these giveaways, I hope he'll tell me. I'll be in line with the shoe polish right behind him!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2017 Posts: 17,798
    As far as the rest of the giveaways some folks want you to believe in -- as soon as @chrisisall locates the reality of these giveaways, I hope he'll tell me. I'll be in line with the shoe polish right behind him!
    Oh man, I forgot the shoe polish when I went to pick up the Ferrari and they caught on fast. I lost the house too... "You idiot, we only give away free expensive stuff to Mexican rapists & drug dealers!" I was told.
    Oh well, back to paying taxes so I can help in funding Corporate Welfare and our lovely Saudi friends. Say, did you catch the beheading of that last girl ? Cool beans, yo!
    (Yeah, I'm not laughing at my angry sarcasm either)
  • JohnHammond73JohnHammond73 Lancashire, UK
    Posts: 4,151
    The NY thing very scary. More so for me as my brother and a friend of mine are currently over there at the minute. Both are ok thankfully. My brother has told me that he has spent a good few hours at the bus terminal where it happened and was there only a few hours before the explosion. He had told me that it is quite s scary time but NYPD have been fantastic.
  • edited December 2017 Posts: 7,507
    At the end of the day, illegal immigrants or not, the US is simply in economic decline. That is the heart of the matter. Production has moved overseas, and the poverty rate is groving as a consenquence. Trump's policy of protectionism will not help, in fact it might even accelerate the development. USA cannot compete with Asia at the global market.

    The conservatives can try to push the blame on to immigrants and Obama, but at the end of the day it's about the natural ditection the country is headed. China will be the new economic superpower. What is worrying is that USA is detoriorating in every way. With an incredible lack of common knowledge and education, 19th century consevative views on religion and policy, conservative propaganda where lying has become the norm, corruption etc. Proper welfare is badly needed more than ever for the groving unemployment rate and working class. Instead the government's solution is to strip the people of health care and raise the divide in tax rates, only accelarating the divide and misery. Instead of having politicians in the pocket of wealthy business owners with privat agendas, they now have a president who puts these privat people directly in power. "Drain the swump" my ass!

    Immigrants and non white americans are the scape goats, unjustly being blamed for everything wrong. Add to that constant attacks on the free press, and you have a completely toxic and hopeless environment. Being born a US citizen is in no way a privilege anymore. The country is heading for the cliff. Fast.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Yeah, but let's wait until we're actively falling to realize it and try vainly to fix it...
  • Posts: 4,615
    There are very few examples, if any, of countries that have managed their decline well. Most are in denial whilst the process takes place.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    There IS no decline! MAGA! Like climate change, the decline is a Liberal HOAX!
  • Posts: 628
    chrisisall wrote: »
    There IS no decline! MAGA! Like climate change, the decline is a Liberal HOAX!

    Another zinger from the peanut gallery.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    There IS no decline! MAGA! Like climate change, the decline is a Liberal HOAX!

    Another zinger from the peanut gallery.
    More fake news! ;)
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    @CASINOROYALE I said Fox because you were previously repeating their lies about Clinton as facts. Now don't get me wrong I'm no fan of hers and understand the resentment to her, selling uranium to Russia isn't just bogus, it's stupid. As I said, why would Russia want to do this? They're a bigger producer of uranium then the US!
    If anything they'd want to sell it to her!

    But I'm happy you're not taking their word for it, because they're lying and manipulating. Not that CNN is doing that much better, it isn't easy getting to the truth, but logical thinking helps at least deviding the utter nonsense from the possible.

    Mexico isn't a horrible trashy place (That's India) but it isn't the loveliest country in the world for sure. I didn't stay there too long but the amount of deaths especially because of the ongoing drug wars take their toll and as it stands many try to flee the violence.

    You're paying 15% tax? Man you haven't got a clue what tax paying means! We have a progressive system which starts at 36% ( https://www.expatax.nl/tax-rates-2017 )
    And next to income tax we have the mandatory health insurance, VAT (21% on fun things, 6% food), and petrol for my car is a blast, I pay 1,53 euro a liter ($1,79) or $6,77 per gallon. Of that money 75% goes directy into the coffers of our government.

    But the fun thing is we have minimum wages which are so high that even the minimum wages can afford TV's and that kind of stuff, which keeps the economy going like a rocket. We have a social security system where people can actually buy food if they're jobless and take care of their children and while doing so that money goes into the economy. But you prefer to stay under payed so the owner of your company can buy his next luxury car but he won't because there's no need for it. That, after all, is the wonder of the trickle down economy. It's your choice. And all I've been saying is it's not fair to blame it on immigrants, legal or illigal.

    @bondjames again I thought so too, but the idea of keeping those who're willing to work and sending back those who won't does appeal. At the same time I think it's better to invest in those countries and create jobs there, so you won't have immigrants coming over, other then for usefull purposes.

    Over here (Western Europe) we've had a big influx of useless immigrants lately, and a government that seems to be willing to keep the useless and kick the ones who want to work out. Why I don't know but that's what I've seen and it's supported by an perverted industry which makes money out of these 'poor refugees'. Again it's the politics and the show for tv that matters, not the actual lives of people. Our pokiticians may not be as corrupt as they are in the US, but they're doing their best.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @CommanderRoss, thanks for the reply. Just to clarify I'm referring to the right of a country to determine an immigration policy.

    Most western nations that I know of either have a 'points' based skills system (depending on what credentials and experience is needed), or an investor program (where someone parks money in the country in a designated investment determined by the govt) or a business program (where one commits to starting a going concern which employs workers) to gain entry and then citizenship is granted once an individual meets certain criteria over a period of time as a permanent resident (or in the case of the US, as a green card holder).

    It's not so much about working necessarily (although that's of course essential), but rather what skills are important for the country in relation to what its particular employment needs are. That is different for each country and everyone is competing for the best talent.

    What is not acceptable (imho) is to have anyone coming in as and when they want, irrespective of whether they want to work or not. The point is whether their skills are needed. If not, then those with required skills must be prioritized (and those whose skills aren't required will have a longer wait to gain entry). Ultimately, the process must be managed.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    @Bondjames yes, most countries have such systems in place, just like the way they try to attract huge corporations with tax cuts (my country is even known as a tax haven). The question is, is that really what you need? We want to be frontrunner in science, and we've got good universities turning out very good scientists, etc. So adding more from foreign countries would only be a plus. And it seems all logical, but at the same time still approximately 75% of our economy runs on the middle class. And i.e. seasonal workers in the flower industry (one of our biggest export products) or fruit and vegetable greenhouses are hard to find because our own unemployed aren't willing to do the jobs.
    It's the same as with the differnce between trickle-down and a social welfare system. The latter just as a far bigger turnover.

    Again, not that we don't need highly educated people, we do. but focussing on the top makes us forget where the real profits lie.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Good points @CommandRoss, and that's where people can be let in on seasonal work visas if and when required. Then, after a certain period of time and number of years, they will be eligible for permanent residency and finally citizenship (and a country should have a right to vary that policy depending on its economic circumstances and trends).

    The US situation is an interesting one, because it borders far poorer countries (on the southern end), thereby impacting the skills it gets from the workers who come in. Germany has similar issues due to its skills base and living standards in comparison to its immediate neighbours, and as far as I'm aware, they have very strict rules on who can become a German citizen (save for the refugees they let in).

    EDIT: Regarding the news - it's pretty bad these days globally. Given the impact of the internet and bloggers, paid news is increasingly going the salacious route in order to get readers. One has to be very skeptical and take in opposing news sources to get a balanced perspective. If you watch CNN, then watch Fox too. Even take in BBC, RT, Deutsche Welle and Al Jazeera from time to time for the entire global perspective. We have so many sources now that there is no excuse not to be informed. However, it would be foolish to believe any one source, because what poses as 'news' these days is what was considered 'op-ed' in the past.
  • Posts: 7,507
    bondjames wrote: »
    Good points @CommandRoss, and that's where people can be let in on seasonal work visas if and when required. Then, after a certain period of time and number of years, they will be eligible for permanent residency and finally citizenship (and a country should have a right to vary that policy depending on its economic circumstances and trends).

    The US situation is an interesting one, because it borders far poorer countries (on the southern end), thereby impacting the skills it gets from the workers who come in. Germany has similar issues due to its skills base and living standards in comparison to its immediate neighbours, and as far as I'm aware, they have very strict rules on who can become a German citizen (save for the refugees they let in).

    EDIT: Regarding the news - it's pretty bad these days globally. Given the impact of the internet and bloggers, paid news is increasingly going the salacious route in order to get readers. One has to be very skeptical and take in opposing news sources to get a balanced perspective. If you watch CNN, then watch Fox too. Even take in BBC, RT, Deutsche Welle and Al Jazeera from time to time for the entire global perspective. We have so many sources now that there is no excuse not to be informed. However, it would be foolish to believe any one source, because what poses as 'news' these days is what was considered 'op-ed' in the past.


    You are actually advicing people to watch Fox News? For crying out loud!

    I watch and read Norwegian news medias, BBC, The Guardian, CNN almost every day. They usually have fairly similar reports on world events. Fox News is completely different. It is not even a proper news medium! The whole chanel is a scam! Pure propaganda!

    Are you actually being serious here?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Yes, of course I'm being serious. You have to view the other side of the discussion, not dismiss it. Everything is being pushed to the margins in order to appeal to extremes on both sides of the argument. The middle isn't being catered to. Consequently people are becoming more and more misinformed.

    Please don't tell me you're trusting CNN? They used to play to the middle and their ratings were going into the toilet. They've found their ability to make money by jumping on the anti-Trump bandwagon. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump is in on it to be honest, given his reality background. Who do you think gave him his biggest platform during the primaries? It's the 'wrestling' game. Someone has to be the big bad and that person sometimes brings in the biggest viewership. He started off as the 'good guy' and now he's turned 'heel'. Ratings up. It's all a big show to wind up people. A passionate audience gives you ratings. A disengaged one doesn't.

    The US Govt. has just labeled RT as a foreign agent and restricted their access. Have you watched RT? Anyone who views shows like the Keiser Report or Crosstalk will realize why the US is trying to target them. Are those shows biased against US foreign policy and corporate interests? Of course they are. However one must view it in order to get perspective.
  • edited December 2017 Posts: 7,507
    Just to make this clear:

    The repeated idea that there are "two extremes" in American news coverage is simply not true! (I was contemplating using 'ridiculous' or 'ludicrous', but you are known to be sensitive...).

    Even the most "leftist" (yeah right!) news broadcaster at CNN would be classified as moderate in my country and most of Europe overall. Bernie Sanders is considered an "extreme" socialist in America, simply because he wants to implement some of the minimal welfare most of the world takes for granted. Here he would be a member of the conservative branch. No, I am not kidding! The level of reactionary conservatism in the US baffles europeans. We used to think Reagen, Bush, McCain and Romney were extreme... and now you gave us this! There is only one 'extreme' side in mainstream American politics. Claiming anything else is absurd. You can easily judge this by comparing USA to other countries.

    In news there are serius media and there is propaganda. As I said I watch CNN quite regularly because I want to know American perspective on things. I also follow European news mediums, both Norwegian and English media. CNN's coverage is, as you'd expect, very America biased and conservative. Yes, conservative. But at least they are reasonably truthful and reliable in their coverage of worldwide events, and it's usually quite on the same wavelength as most news coverage here. Whenever I watch Fox News however, I either laugh, shake my head, pull my hear or throw fists at my computer! It is completely insane to any non American that such a chanel can even exist in a so called civilized country. Their coverage is conservatively biased to the extreme, and even worse, they seem to have no shame in lying or manipulating news. They even construct absolutely infathomable conspiracy theories that would make any rational human being crack up if they weren't so sadly serious and disgusting!

    There are not "two extremes" in American news. It's the fairly rational free press, and it's the Republican propaganda machine!

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2017 Posts: 17,798
    jobo wrote: »
    Just to make this clear:

    The repeated idea that there are "two extremes" in American news coverage is simply not true! (I was contemplating using 'ridiculous' or 'ludicrous', but you are known to be sensitive...).

    Even the most "leftist" (yeah right!) news broadcaster at CNN would be classified as moderate in my country and most of Europe overall. Bernie Sanders is considered an "extreme" socialist in America, simply because he wants to implement some of the minimal welfare most of the world takes for granted. Here he would be a member of the conservative branch. No, I am not kidding! The level of reactionary conservatism in the US baffles europeans. We used to think Reagen, Bush, McCain and Romney were extreme... and now you gave us this! There is only one 'extreme' side in mainstream American politics. Claiming anything else is absurd. You can easily judge this by comparing USA to other countries.

    In news there are serius media and there is propaganda. As I said I watch CNN quite regularly because I want to know American perspective on things. I also follow European news mediums, both Norwegian and English media. CNN's coverage is, as you'd expect, very America biased and conservative. Yes, conservative. But at least they are reasonably truthful and reliable in their coverage of worldwide events, and it's usually quite on the same wavelength as most news coverage here. Whenever I watch Fox News however, I either laugh, shake my head, pull my hear or throw fists at my computer! It is completely insane to any non American that such a chanel can even exist in a so called civilized country. Their coverage is conservatively biased to the extreme, and even worse, they seem to have no shame in lying or manipulating news. They even construct absolutely infathomable conspiracy theories that would make any rational human being crack up if they weren't so sadly serious and disgusting!

    There are not "two extremes" in American news. It's the fairly rational free press, and it's the Republican propaganda machine!

    Ahh, yep.
    Back in the 80's I was following the so-called leftist (I considered them merely a bit left of centre myself) coverage on the Reagan era. A lot of them were dismissed as nutcases. Lo and behold almost ALL of what they were saying proved nearly 100% true in hindsight. Although not a 'Leftist' myself, I've found that the American road to fascism is (and has been) paved with the good(?) intentions of Corporate Republicans.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    You are watching CNN International. Not CNN America, which is just as bad as Fox News or MSNBC. You're not properly informed. There is no Fox International.

    I'm quite aware of the European perspective and the UK perspective. I lived in the UK for many years. America has never been as liberal as Europe. It will never be. It's just not in the country's DNA. There is an element that prefers a more socially oriented policy, but the country is split. EDIT: And the UK is not as left leaning as most of Europe either.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    There are irrefutable facts about Trump. He's a bully, a liar, possibly colluded with a foreign government against his own country, he stands accused of multiple instances of sexual assault and is currently campaigning for an alleged paedophile. These facts tell me all I need to know about anyone who defends or likes him.

    I'm not American - so from an outside perspective Trump is a type of gollum that I pray we don't create in my own country. He is a warning to the rest of us that we should not take our democratic institutions for granted to the point where they become infested by self-serving, partisan extremists who would support paedophiles simply because not doing it would mean the opposition would win - and of course - that is the worst possible outcome apparently.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    bondjames wrote: »
    CNN America, which is just as bad as Fox News or MSNBC.
    LOL, that's like the difference between a two day old tuna sandwich, rotting fruit and a granola bar. None particularly good for you, but one will make you sick.
  • Posts: 7,507
    bondjames wrote: »
    You are watching CNN International. Not CNN America, which is just as bad as Fox News or MSNBC. You're not properly informed. There is no Fox International.

    I'm quite aware of the European perspective and the UK perspective. I lived in the UK for many years. America has never been as liberal as Europe. It will never be. It's just not in the country's DNA. There is an element that prefers a more socially oriented policy, but the country is split.

    So you are claiming that CNN America and CNN International are completely different, one being a serius news chanel, and the other being 'leftist propaganda'. Sorry, but I am not even close to buying it! When I spent almost two weeks in America this summer, I watched CNN every day. I was never surprised or baffled by what I saw.

    But you are seriously baffling me! You claim to be familiar with European news coverage, and yet you claim Fox News is a legitimate medium, only representing "the other side of the argument"? I am simply stunned if you can say this with a straight face (I cannot see it, onviously)!
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