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I'm sure the magic comfort blanket of the EU, will soon make it All Better.
As Margaret Thatcher said, referenda are the device of dictators and demagogues. Shame her own idiot party didn’t pay more attention to that one.
The currect shambles is down to poor execution. A gov with no backbone or vision, led by a PM who actually, personally wants to stay in
Not quite true, there never was a plan how the leave would be dome, you were in favor or against the Eu ,but the leave campaign never thought they would win so they never made any plans. Now it is up to the current government to make it up as they go along with the less than smart people making it up as the smarter people want no part in this economic disaster they see unfolding.
They should have accepted the choice of the people but take a year to plan what it is they wanted and how they were going to do it. Instead of doing the stupid thing and just jump in the pool and see what floats. A strategic f&ck up of some gigantic proportion.
Mostly I am amused when the brexit folks say about the fact that they should point the EU to what the UK wants out of the deal and we can take of leave it. And now they will have to suck up to the US again with Jerusalem otherwise he will shaft you in your next economic treaty with the US because you did not listen to the boss, he is going to do that anyhow.')
Things were actually heading that way. The early 1970s were not a happy time for the UK. Joining the EEC as it then was arguably helped save the UK.
We're living in troubled times, but I doubt that splintering up is the right way to tackle the many problems we're facing, regardless of whether a country is large or small, economically healthy or not. However, a radical re-assessment of things, combined with perhaps a few more ballsy attitude changed towards, for example, migration, is desirable.
I'm all for a united Europe, but perhaps not for this united Europe.
it's arguable that Russia has more power/influence in the West right now than it did in Soviet times.
It's being poorly implemented by May's Government as the Leave campaign neglected to provide a roadmap. Instead, Brexit took on any guise the voter wished it to be. I've heard the phrase 'Brexit was in the eye of the beholder' and it's very apposite.
Voting to leave the EU was foolhardy. I understand the sentiment and the rationale which led people to make the decision to leave, but without a solid idea of what Brexit actually means and would entail, it was a reckless and irresponsible move.
Britain, quietly rightly, will suffer. This country deserves what's coming to it. Ignorant Brits have cut their noses off to spite their faces. All we need is for Gareth Southgate to deliver the inevitable piss-poor performance in the World Cup. I'm looking forward to Britain loosing its status on the world stage, it's well-deserved.
He created a vacuum which the leave campaign (a rag tag of pressure groups etc) tried to fill with a whole spectrum of ideas regarding what "leave" would look like. It was not their role to come up with official policy or a road map.
Cameron IMHO will go down as possibly THE most wreckless PM in history. This whole mess is down to him. How can you offer the nation a binary choice and only plan for one outcome???? And obviously, he could not have left Number 10 any quicker. He knew exactly what he had done.
both arrogant and ignorant wreckers.
on the domestic front Blair's legacy was to be fair significantly better than Cameron's but Blair's reputation if anything is more sullied due to Iraq
@patb I agree.
Cameron's government ignorantly offered an EU referendum in their 2015 manifesto, as they thought there was no way they would form a majority. However, the offer was so tantalising that the right-wing UKIPers took the impetus and voted Tory. Hey presto, Cameon get the majority he never anticipated.
Therefore, he sees through his promise of a Brexit vote and (again) ignorantly fails to plot out a concise and detailed plan on what an EU exit strategy could look like. It should have been this exit strategy that we voted on.
Instead, tits like Farage, Gove and Johnson were given a brief window to flood people with misinformation and pry on the electorate's patriotism and cynicism. Suddenly, we're in the mess we are now.
Cameron failed spectacularly as a PM. The worst part is that he failed on his own terms. He set the rules and fell short of his own expectations. His attempts to be politically conniving and astute backfired. He was by far the worst PM. Theresa May's political machinations last year by calling the snap election were probably more embarrassing though. Especially against the supposedly unelectable Corbyn.
I didn't vote for Brexit. However, I'm not a Remain voter who is intolerant and unwilling to listen to the other side. In fact, I find it far more gratifying and interesting to hear different opinions and exit the echo-chamber. But Britain can't leave in 2019 (I'm not saying they can't ever leave) with the current degree of disarray.
There is still an ongoing debate about what leave meant and politicians on both sides trying to second guess the voters in terms of what they thought leave was at the time they voted.
I think this was compounded by many within the leave campaign not really thinking they would win so the definition meant little to them and they also just made up claims, not ever thinking that they would be put into reality.
There was also a possibilty of a second question re "if you vote leave, do you want a hard withdrawal of everything or do you want us to negotiate on all issues"
The whole political system failed us and everyone , leave and remainers, are dealing with the fallout. It is horrible, just horrible. And I am a "leaver"
At least Brexit ruined Farage's private life. I take some consolation in that. ;)
So far, I've been a bit disappointed by the haphazard manner in which the proposed separation is being handled. It will be messy and unpretty, and another head will have to roll (May is likely to be the fall 'gal'), but eventually I see positives under new leadership once it's done.
I think it's hard to imagine a bigger mess if you tried. How many "leave" voters would have predicted our current situation? (I certainly didn't) Party politics and individual careers are being put ahead of the national interest on a daily basis.
It's hard to put into words what a dangerous time this is for the UK but we have a habbit of ignoring the big stuff and, like a stupid kitten with a ping pong ball, we get distracted by the Royals, World Cup, Love Island and Andy Murray etc,
As a nation, I think we have forgotten how to get angry. Anger is a useful tool for a nation to have but we seem to have become a nation of people who don't really care that much about anything. It's interesting to think/discuss about what actually needs to happen before we get angry.
If that's not possible, then it might be appropriate to go back to Juncker and Co. with cup in hand, begging for a face saving way to remain or at least delay. "Going down together" (please forgive the Jinxism) may be preferable to alone.
Delay is most likely I think.
So they are taking things on a day to day basis and just propping up their own parties and doing everything to protect their own jobs in the short term rather than putting thier country first.
Things will drag on and on and get worse and worse. There seems to be no sense of urgency. The over riding issue for the Government is not to let Labour in rather than a decent excecution of the "leave" project.
@bondjames How I enjoy the sunny optimism of the British when under fire.
You're going to need a stiffer upper lip than you already have. Britain is far from being great. Sadly, in an economic sense, Brexit will destroy Britain and rob it of its status on the world's stage. The irony of attempting to regain sovereignty but single-handily destroying your bargaining power will go down in history as the lousiest political move of all time.
I agreed with you that there is no redemption today, and there certainly won't be any in another 10 years.
Most Brexit voters seem to have your outlook and it's hopeless naivety masks years of intolerance and general political ignorance.
How about this for your 'crack pot theory of the day': Why are we holding so earnestly to the idea of a 'nation'? Who decided that these artificial borders and boundaries need protecting? Who wants to protect some quaint, idealised idea of 'Britishness' and then confide it to a small region away from others? Also when you come to think about it, when was this idea ever under attack?
Why do we need to get 'angry'? Why can't be collaborate and actually make a productive community which works in tandem with others to achieve a collective goal?
I know, ridiculous. Right? Who'd have thought we all have to live on the world together when it's far more advantageous to argue about symbolism whilst distracting ourselves with the World Cup. "This is our year...I think we can win!" When did this become a matter for us or we? Perhaps its time stop fighting for a nation that doesn't care for you and start looking at a more global picture.
One of the issues with voting leave is that everyone had their own thoughts but the remainers are determined to make wild generalisations about "leave" voters. I agree that many are "little Englanders", Boris supporters, Royal Baby commemorative plate collecters, finsh Xmas lunch before the Queen, "best is British", the Allegro wasn't that bad, Spitfire was the best ever plane, can't beat a Sunday roast, can't stand that foreign muck, don't you miss Love Thy Neighbour etc . I hate that attitude but, by voting leave, I and many others are lumped into this tribe.
The binary nature of the vote and the dumbed down level of debate leads to wild , lazy generalisations on both sides which serve non of us well and detract from a higher level of debate and insight.
My point about getting angry was a wider one but, for example, democracy and sovereignty were key topics of the Brexit debate but now find we have a minority governement propped up by the DUP (dont get me started on them). A million miles from democracy. We should, at the very least, be concerned (and, IMHO angry) with this and ask/demand to be governed by a governement with a majority. But, we, as a nation don't seem to care.
Why would I have considered Brexit? Only because I firmly believe that the EU as currently structured is doomed to failure. It's an inherently unstable construct. A political necessity rather than an economic, fiscally or monetary sound one. They have shown no will over there to reform it, and they won't until it's too late. Too much to lose for those who've gained by it to date. Status quo will prevail...until it can't.
Brexit was never going to be easy and anyone who thought otherwise was deluding themselves. We discussed this on this or another thread some time back. Ultimately Britain's decision to go it alone will require significant sacrifice and readjustment. Reinvention too. Even if there was a plan it would still have been messy because this is not happening in a static environment. There are significant tectonic changes occurring globally, and those are only going to accelerate soon.
If handled with the right frame of mind, the nation will come out of it stronger, with new purpose, a renewed identity and ready to compete in the fast evolving 21st century. If separation occurs as planned (and I'm not certain it will without a delay), then I expect political upheaval at home and new leadership to take the country forward. Not sure who that will be, but he/she will have to reveal themselves soon.
Another possibility is that the EU does make the necessary changes in time, and Britain either re-enters or delays exit even further. I find this highly unlikely at this time.
It's like voting to leave the Titanic but not knowing if you have a place on the lifeboat, who is in charge of the lifeboat, do you have a life jacket, how close is the rescue ship etc etc But if you are sure the ship is going to sink, you do have to get off.
What seems to be lacking currently is galvanizing leadership, and more than anything that is what is required now.
I find your analogies both endearing and pathetic.
I'm sensing little substance of any of the actual practical and tangible details of Brexit in your comments. Instead, just soft platitudes of "it'll work itself out". These are such redundant statements, which likely led to people thinking the lack of substance was reason enough to vote for Brexit.
Thanks for your two-cents. It's cute.
Ultimately, one man's hubristic gamble put the nation on a path that I think it was destined to go down inevitably (if it wasn't initiated by Britain it would have been forced upon it by the EU eventually as economic circumstances would have forced further unpalatable concentration and coordination), but the timing is off. It's done now though, and if one can't chart a course in a planned fashion (due to the practical pressures of separation taking up all the time and effort), then perhaps one has to chart it without a plan. It's going to be very tricky times, but one has to remain optimistic.
I don't think either you or I are going to be able to debate the details of Brexit in the level of detail required to really do it justice. The discussions are complex and involve several components, not least the hard border with Northern Ireland and trade discussions, especially now that there are tariffs being levied. Neither of us have sufficient knowledge to have a discussion to the depth required.
What I advocate for is an industrial policy suited to Britain's current and future educational and strategic strengths. The nation has to wean itself off of London real estate and finance as primary GDP growth drivers.
Very true re real estate and finance but it may be too late. And of course that was something entirely possible while still being a member of the EU. Look at Holland and Germany for thriving mixed economies exporting exponentially more to the rest of the world than the UK manages (Holland I think has almost double the UK's exports despite being less than half the size). The Dutch are also (in general) fabulously wealthy, with excellent public services to boot.
I'm not sure why you think leaving the EU is such a great opportunity for the UK. We tried going it alone from the 1940s to the 1970s and we ended up begging to be let into the EEC. The EU has enabled Europe to grow fantastically wealthy, with some of the best public services in the world. It's also helped Europe (and the world) to avoid a major global military conflict for over 70 years.
The new world order Trump has in mind will (if it comes to fruition) bring ruination and poverty to billions of people. The EU is a bulwark against this new wave of insanity sweeping the globe. If it didn't exist the UK would be looking to create it.
I don't doubt that we will be either hovering at the exit door for eternity, or if we do leave, we'll be banging on the door to be let back in within a decade.
Brexit it sheer unadulterated lunacy of the purest kind. I know lots of people voted for Brexit with honest/good intentions. The British left is full of useful idiots always happy to make these pathetic mistakes. People like Corbyn actually think the EU is too right wing and wants us out of it so he can impose his socialist utopia unimpeded by 'capitalist' Brussels.
We're in an age of anger and stupidity. I fear for my kids' futures.